d6caps@dtek.chalmers.se. (Per Bergland) (03/20/89)
Has anyone come up with the idea of writing a Macintosh emulator for the SUN3. It shouldn't be too difficult since the CPU is the same. A friend of mine started on it, but found that you must run SUN OS 4.0 'cause you need to map page 0 in the memory, and that can't be done with OS 3.0. If there does exist a program that includes software for copying the ROMs, could someone send it to me? I would enjoy running Macintosh on the SUN's '020 and a 19-inch screen with a lot of virtual memory and a large quota on my filesystem. The emulator should perhaps keep all the Mac files in one single SUN file (I really don't know though). By the way, is this a stupid question? Per Bergland d6caps@dtek.chalmers.se
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/21/89)
[[I probably shouldn't respond, but...]] >Has anyone come up with the idea of writing a Macintosh emulator for the SUN3. Many people. Implementation, however... >It shouldn't be too difficult since the CPU is the same. Um. I wouldn't make that assumption. >If there does exist a program that includes software for copying the ROMs, >could someone send it to me? Just a reminder that copying the ROM's would likely be considered illegal. >By the way, is this a stupid question? No. Technically, it could be done. Legally, that's another matter. Either way, it wouldn't be trivial. Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.] USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.
wab@reed.UUCP (Bill Baker) (03/22/89)
In article <27619@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >[[I probably shouldn't respond, but...]] What's the matter, Chuq? Apple got your tongue? >>If there does exist a program that includes software for copying the ROMs, >>could someone send it to me? > >Just a reminder that copying the ROM's would likely be considered illegal. This is an interesting question, given that Apple's pricing policy has made Mac ROM's worth their weight in gold. Once you buy a Mac, the ROM's are legal copies of copyrighted media that you now own. Case law, at the moment, treats software and ROM code, I believe, like any other media. *Theoretically*, then, you can make copies of ROM's for personal use. There would be nothing to stop someone marketing a clone of the Mac architecture with fast RAM in place of the ROM's and a ROM disassembler, which would copy Mac ROM code onto a hard disk on the clone, which would then read the copy of the Mac ROM code into the RAM whenever the machine was booted (very slow boot, of course). Provided this machine was marketed for the sole purpose of allowing legal owners of Mac ROM's to copy them for personal use in the clone, it would probably be legal. The legal aspects of this are roughly equivalent to the case that the movie studios companies lost against the VCR manufacturers. Whether it would be technologically feasible or financially viable is another question. ------------ Bill Baker {backbone}!tektronix!reed!wab
wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu (William M. Bumgarner) (03/24/89)
> Once you buy a Mac, the ROM's are legal copies of copyrighted media that you > now own. Case law, at the moment, treats software and ROM code, I believe, > like any other media. *Theoretically*, then, you can make copies of ROM's for > personal use. There would be nothing to stop someone marketing a > clone of the Mac architecture with fast RAM in place of the ROM's and a ROM > disassembler, which would copy Mac ROM code onto a hard disk on the clone, > which would then read the copy of the Mac ROM code into the RAM whenever the > machine was booted (very slow boot, of course). Provided this machine was > marketed for the sole purpose of allowing legal owners of Mac ROM's to copy > them for personal use in the clone, it would probably be legal. This has already been done in both Mac ][ Plus and ][ in a Mac. Both programs come with applications that grab the Apple ][ ROM's through the serial port. b.bum wb1j+@andrew.cmu.edu
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/24/89)
>>[[I probably shouldn't respond, but...]] >What's the matter, Chuq? Apple got your tongue? Nope. I just know when a discussion is likely to get involved in issues I'd rather avoid arguing about. That's one of the nice aspects of working here -- they don't tell you not to talk about things. They expect you to be smart enough to know what you shouldn't blab. >>Just a reminder that copying the ROM's would likely be considered illegal. > >Once you buy a Mac, the ROM's >are legal copies of copyrighted media that you now own. Case law, at >the moment, treats software and ROM code, I believe, like any other >media. *Theoretically*, then, you can make copies of ROM's for >personal use. Most software gets around this by licensing it to you rather than selling it to you (the famous "license to use on one system and make copies for archival purpose only" clause...). The ROM? I honestly don't know. However, even if you could make copies for personal use, that precludes, say, making a copy for a friend's clone. It definitely precludes someone like a dealer making copies and giving them away with every clone. So at the very least, if you wanted to buy a clone, you'd have to buy a Mac to be legal. Then you could, potentially, run both of them off the single ROM in some way or another. But this is somewhat of a moot point, because you also have to have the System Software (system, finder, et al) -- and that, I think you'll find, is under a licensing agreement. Without both, unless those folks want to re-implement all of the software, it wouldn't do much good. It'd also be interesting to see if Apple's lawyers would allow a company to sell a clone sans ROMs. A good case could be made for an intent to violate the copyrights, which would be an interesting legal case (actually, there ar precedents: a person caught with drug paraphernalia like bongs is considered to be showing intent to break drug laws -- arguing that the bong is just a cute flower vase isn't likely to do much good) (massive disclaimers! massive disclaimers!) Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.] USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.
gwangung@blake.acs.washington.edu (Roger Tang) (03/24/89)
In article <27749@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >Most software gets around this by licensing it to you rather than selling it >to you (the famous "license to use on one system and make copies for >archival purpose only" clause...). The ROM? I honestly don't know. However, I know of several sources of Mac ROMS...However, thearey are only for 64Ks and 128 per agreeements with Apple. >So at the very least, if you wanted to buy a clone, you'd have to buy a Mac >to be legal. Then you could, potentially, run both of them off the single Only for the 256K ROMs. >But this is somewhat of a moot point, because you also have to have the >System Software (system, finder, et al) -- and that, I think you'll find, is >under a licensing agreement. Without both, unless those folks want to >re-implement all of the software, it wouldn't do much good. Hmmmm.....Atari ST owners under Mac emulation seem to get these things legally.o >It'd also be interesting to see if Apple's lawyers would allow a company to >sell a clone sans ROMs. A good case could be made for an intent to violate >the copyrights, which would be an interesting legal case (actually, there ar >precedents: a person caught with drug paraphernalia like bongs is considered >to be showing intent to break drug laws -- arguing that the bong is just a >cute flower vase isn't likely to do much good) Actually, they do allow Gadgets by Small to sell the Spectre 128 for Atari STs. This is an emulator, sans ROMs, that allows the ST to run like a Mac, making use of either the 64K or 128K ROMs. Perfectly legal, since Small checked it out ahead of time with Apple. He just can't market a device that makes use of current ROMs.
ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (03/24/89)
According to one of the latest MacWeeks there were two Mac clones introduced (real low-profile) in Hanover a couple of weeks ago. I believe both need the Mac ROMS to run, and one of the people said they wouldn't say where they got the ROMS from, 'cause "then Apple would plug the leaks". I reckon that when the legal stuff is over with, Apple will have plugged that leak. But one firm said that they may try to get "Mac ROM clones", whatever that is. What's your opinion on all this stuff, Chuq? Sounds kinda borderline to me. Saw in April MacUser Rumors column that Radio Shack was thinking of coming out with a Mac II clone. Is this true, or April Fools, or just a vaporRumor? Robert ------ ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu ------ generic disclaimer: all my opinions are mine
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/24/89)
>I reckon that when >the legal stuff is over with, Apple will have plugged that leak. But one firm >said that they may try to get "Mac ROM clones", whatever that is. What's your >opinion on all this stuff, Chuq? Sounds kinda borderline to me. My personal opinion? There are a few places (Brazil, Thailand for instance) with copyright/trademark/open_piracy laws that might allow a company in that country to legally make copies of the Mac ROMs. However, exporting those ROMs to a country with a real proprietary information protection system would be another matter.Even if you *could* find a haven to make the ROMs without immediately being shut down, I wouldn't want to be the person trying to bring them into the states through Customs. There are any number of ways to get ROMs or ROM reproductions. I certainly wouldn't want to base a products sales on their availability, though. While you can probably find a dealer to sell you a ROM from a dead machine, scaling that up from a onesie-twosie to the kind of volume needed to make a clone product worthwhile would be somewhere between hard and impossible. If you sell 10,000 clones, you need a distribution channel for 10,000 ROMs, too, and that would be something that I'd think would be rather hard to keep quiet -- and there's no way to manufacture or distribute those ROMs in the U.S. without violating Apple's rights (or at least spending a lot of time explaining to various judges why those rights aren't violated -- and I personally doubt there's a lot of chance of being convincing...). [[[[massive disclaimers. massive disclaimers. etc. etc.]]]] Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.] USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.