mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) (03/14/89)
Sigh. I just don't understand why Apple does this. . .
I was in comparing prices at the university store today, and found
out some interesting stuff...Apple has finally lowered the price on
the Mac IIx to a reasonable level--about $400 Cdn. above a Mac II--
but the logic board upgrade alone from a Mac II to a Mac IIx is more
than $2,000! Come on now, Apple, what's going on!? You made your profit
off of me when I bought the II, and I wouldn't mind paying you a reasonable
profit on the board either, but $2000+ isn't just profit, it is an
indication to customers that Apple doesn't care a sou for its customers
after the sale is made. I mean, what am I supposed to think about buying
Apple machines in the future when I say to myself, "If I buy this machine right
now, I can have full confidence that Apple will try to price any future
upgrades completely out of my price range." Not very confidence-inspiring.
For those who are wondering, this all started when I went in to look
up the price of a Mac IIcx (I need the portability, I do a lot of traveling.)
This would seem to indicate that I am not even in a position to worry about
the logic board upgrade price, but look closer--when I try to sell my Mac II,
how's it going to look if I say, "Well, an upgrade to a MacIIx will cost over
$2000, but you can buy a brand-new MacII right now for only $1500 more than
what I'm asking"--and to say even that, I'd have to take a loss of over $1000
on my machine! (Which I am willing to take--but more would hurt.)
Well, all that ranting and raving felt good. Now for my one real question...
I understand that a Mac IIx is slightly faster than a Mac II--however, is this
only valid when comparing a IIx to a II with a 68-whatever PMMU, or does
the nonfunctional "PMMU" that every II comes standard with slow it down
also? Are then any other factors causing the IIx to be faster than the II?
(I know about the FPU, but that is such a specialized chip that I don't
really regard it as having a general speedup effect.)
Ken McDonald
{...!ubc-cs!mcdonald@fornax.uucp}
P.S. To those on the net who seem to feel an obligation to flame any posting
complaining about Apple pricing policies, as if they, the respondents, were
the last defenders of capitalism, please note: I have not said Apple is
WRONG to adhere to the pricing policies that they do, I have merely implied
(and at this point I will state it point-blank) that they are STUPID to do
so. You may also say, with a sniggering tone in your voice no doubt, "If
you don't like it, buy something else"--which is precisely the point; even
though I think the Macintosh is by far the best computer around, Apple's
pricing policies, and more particularly its INSANE attitude towards helping
owners of old machines upgrade to a more modern unit, have me thinking very
seriously about changing allegiance. If I have to take a real loss on the
sale of my Mac II, to the point where I cannot justify buying a IIcx, that
is exactly what I will do, at which point both Apple and I will have lost--I
will be using a machine other than the one I would really like to use, and
Apple will have lost a certain amount of profit from me. Even if that profit
would have been less that Apple's ideal, it would still have been profit.
Apple recently found out that price raises do not necessarily mean increased
profits. Too bad it can't take that lesson to its logical extension, and at
least admit the possiblity that price decreases may result in increased profits.
Even more sadly, it is unfortunate that Apple can't learn one of the basic
lessons in the marketplace--in the long wrong, no company that plays fair with
its customers is going to regret it.
Of course, if a Mac IIx logic board really does cost in the neighbourhood of
$2000 Cdn, then flame on!...I deserve to eat my words.macak@lakesys.UUCP (James Macak) (03/15/89)
In article <919@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >Well, all that ranting and raving felt good. Now for my one real question... >I understand that a Mac IIx is slightly faster than a Mac II--however, is this >only valid when comparing a IIx to a II with a 68-whatever PMMU, or does >the nonfunctional "PMMU" that every II comes standard with slow it down >also?.... (Many lines deleted before and after this paragraph.) The standard Mac II does not come with a PMMU chip. There is certainly an empty space on the board to accept such a chip, but it _is_ an empty space on the "regular" Mac II. (Little wonder you find it to be "nonfunctional!" :-) Jim -- Jim Macak <lakesys!macak@csd1.milw.wisc.edu>
gaige@lts.UUCP (Gaige B. Paulsen) (03/16/89)
Although you may feel that the pricing of the II to IIx upgrade is outrageously expensive, let me point out two things to you: 1) You can get virtually all of the components of the IIx upgrade from Apple for reasonable prices (FDHD and PMMU primarily). 2) You CAN GET an upgrade from a II to a IIx. Note that no matter how I try, I cannot get the manufacturer of my car to upgrade it to the latest model.... nor can I get IBM to upgrade this ugly XT to an AT. Gaige Gaige B. Paulsen InterCon Systems Corporation Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for what I write here, even though I am pretty certain he agrees wholeheartedly (although he will not claim responsibility for my grammar or spelling).
sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) (03/16/89)
In article <919@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >P.S. To those on the net who seem to feel an obligation to flame any posting >complaining about Apple pricing policies, as if they, the respondents, were >the last defenders of capitalism, please note: I have not said Apple is >WRONG to adhere to the pricing policies that they do, I have merely implied >(and at this point I will state it point-blank) that they are STUPID to do >so. You may also say, with a sniggering tone in your voice no doubt, "If >you don't like it, buy something else"--which is precisely the point [...] You should feel vindicated, since some folks on Wall Street decided exactly the same thing and Apple stock is now somewhere below sea level (along with their earnings last quarter). Hence the recent price cuts. Why not just skip the wimpy II -> IIx upgrade (you only get a 10-15% speedup, and no, the PMMU is not currently used at all by MacOS, only AU/X) and go for a 3rd party 33MHz 68030 upgrade. It'll probably cost you less and you'll blow away anything Apple now offers. Is the IIcx really that much more portable? -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." cmcl2!esquire!sbb | esquire!sbb@cmcl2.nyu.edu | - David Letterman
ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (03/16/89)
In article <1080@esquire.UUCP>, sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) writes... >You should feel vindicated, since some folks on Wall Street decided >exactly the same thing and Apple stock is now somewhere below sea >level (along with their earnings last quarter). Hence the recent >price cuts. I think it's inaccurate to characterize Apple's earnings as "below sea level" last quarter: they're not doing _that_ badly at all. Apple's earnings were _lower_ than last year's, which was a suprise (to them), but as far as I know, Apple is still making quite a great deal of profit. It should be noted that _many_ computer HW/SW firms have been experiencing declines in profit in recent months. That having been said, I think Apple needs to straighten out their pricing policy and lower prices. Which they've done, to some extent at least. Let's hope the downward pricing trend continues. As I've noted in other postings -- and as the original poster in this chain said -- that would be a SMART thing to do. Robert ------ ra_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu ------ generic disclaimer: all my opinions are mine
gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (03/17/89)
You just don't understand marketing.
The point in PC marketing is to introduce some products, and then make
them outdated as soon as possible, so people have to buy NEW products.
There is a perfectly good reason to offer upgrades. It prevents other
third-party companies from offering a cheap upgrade. This ensures that
nobody will buy the upgrade!
So here is the flaw in your logic: $2000 is not charged with YOU in
mind. $2000 is the price of keeping OTHERS out of the market. If the
total market is 2000 units, and engineering costs a million dollars
($500/unit), and manufacturing+distribution+advertising costs $1500
dollars, because you have to scramble to get Apple roms and Apple
custom sound chips, then nobody can compete with Apple, and nobody
will buy the upgrade and VOILA -- everyone buys a new machine!!!
half-sarcastically 8-)
Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gilliesmha@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Mark H. Anbinder) (03/17/89)
In article <468@lakesys.UUCP> macak@lakesys.UUCP (James Macak) writes: > >The standard Mac II does not come with a PMMU chip. There is certainly an >empty space on the board to accept such a chip, but it _is_ an empty space on >the "regular" Mac II. (Little wonder you find it to be "nonfunctional!" :-) > >Jim Actually, the Mac II comes with an MMU chip referred to, I believe, as an AMMU. This chip sits in the same place where the PMMU would be installed, so there isn't any empty space. As I understand it, the AMMU isn't ENTIRELY nonfunctional... it sits there trapping memory management calls and returning a "page fault" error for all of them. The 68851 PMMU is needed for any real memory management. -- Mark H. Anbinder ** MHA@TCGould.tn.cornell.edu NG33 MVR Hall, Media Services Dept. ** THCY@CRNLVAX5.BITNET Cornell University H: (607) 257-7587 ******** Ithaca, NY 14853 W: (607) 255-1566 ******* Ego ipse custodies custudio
carlson@hpindda.HP.COM (Bob Carlson) (03/17/89)
> Of course, if a Mac IIx logic board really does cost in the > neighbourhood of $2000 Cdn, then flame on!...I deserve to eat my words. ---------- One of the few rules of thumb in the computer industry that have held fairly steady for the last 15 years is that a loaded circuit board of moderate size sells for 1 to 2 thousand dollars. On the other hand Apple ought to take back the old board and give you something for it. They can make use of it as long as they make MAC II's. HP does this with traded in mini's, it refurbishes them and offers them as low cost alternatives to the new ones. Don't eat your words, $2000 sounds outrageous even if it may not be. Cheers, Bob
mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) (03/18/89)
In article <40260012@hpindda.HP.COM>, carlson@hpindda.HP.COM (Bob Carlson) writes: > > Of course, if a Mac IIx logic board really does cost in the > > neighbourhood of $2000 Cdn, then flame on!...I deserve to eat my words. > ---------- > One of the few rules of thumb in the computer industry that have > held fairly steady for the last 15 years is that a loaded circuit > board of moderate size sells for 1 to 2 thousand dollars. On the > other hand Apple ought to take back the old board and give you > something for it. They can make use of it as long as they make > MAC II's. HP does this with traded in mini's, it refurbishes them > and offers them as low cost alternatives to the new ones. Don't eat > your words, $2000 sounds outrageous even if it may not be. > > Cheers, Bob The sad truth is that Apple DOES take back the old board; $2000 is the charge AFTER the allowance for the old Mac II board. If they would let me keep the old board, I'd have no complaints--somebody would get a cheap Mac II in a strange case, and I would get enough of a return to make me happy. I just read an article on Apple's policy of providing free replacements for older Imagewriters LQ--that is the type of corporate philosphy which inspires customer loyalty. It is also completely out of character for Apple. Considering the way the IBM clone market is moving, I give it about 2-3 years before I make the big switch. --Ken McDonald
hunter@oakhill.UUCP (Hunter Scales) (03/20/89)
In article <925@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >In article <40260012@hpindda.HP.COM>, carlson@hpindda.HP.COM (Bob Carlson) writes: [bitches about pricing etc, ad nauseam..] Nobody answers his questions.. does the AMMU introduce a wait state or not? -- Motorola Semiconductor Inc. Hunter Scales Austin, Texas {harvard,utah-cs,gatech}!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!hunter #include <disclaimer.h>
mce@tc.fluke.COM (Brian McElhinney) (03/21/89)
In article <1080@esquire.UUCP> sbb@esquire.UUCP (Stephen B. Baumgarten) writes: >In article <919@fornax.UUCP> mcdonald@fornax.UUCP (Ken Mcdonald) writes: >> >> [about the $2000 Apple charges for IIx upgrades] > >Why not just skip the wimpy II -> IIx upgrade (you only get a 10-15% >speedup, and no, the PMMU is not currently used at all by MacOS, only >AU/X) and go for a 3rd party 33MHz 68030 upgrade. It'll probably >cost you less and you'll blow away anything Apple now offers. I wish! (Boy do I wish!) I would love to get the Daystar board, but I don't have a spare $7000. That's right. Seven grand. Plus tax. And that's and add on, not a replacement motherboard. So $2000 isn't all *that* bad, considering how much just the parts cost. Multi-layer circuit boards stuffed full of parts are not cheap. What is bad is the basic design... I do hate to say that, but 2 wait states and no cache! Shame on you, Apple. You should have known better. Brian McElhinney mce@tc.fluke.com
chow@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Christopher Chow) (03/21/89)
In article <7386@fluke.COM> mce@tc.fluke.COM (Brian McElhinney) writes: ||| ||| [about the $2000 Apple charges for IIx upgrades] || ||Why not just skip the wimpy II -| IIx upgrade (you only get a 10-15% ||speedup, and no, the PMMU is not currently used at all by MacOS, only ||AU/X) and go for a 3rd party 33MHz 68030 upgrade. It'll probably ||cost you less and you'll blow away anything Apple now offers. | |I wish! (Boy do I wish!) I would love to get the Daystar board, but I don't |have a spare $7000. That's right. Seven grand. Plus tax. And that's and |add on, not a replacement motherboard. Actually, there are other accelerators which go for considerably less. For example, MacConnection has the Dove Marathon 030 (32Mhz) for somewhere around $1000. While it dosen't have a cache, it may be possible (I don't know yet) to combine this with the MacOrchard cache (32K cpu cache designed for the stock 020 in the II). If so, then you can get a sizable increase in speed for about $1300. Christopher Chow /---------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Internet: chow@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (128.84.248.35 or 128.84.253.35) | | Usenet: ...{uw-beaver|decvax|vax135}!cornell!batcomputer!chow | | US Mail: 202C Grenadier Drive, Liverpool, NY 13090 | | Phone: Work: 1-315-456-3214, Home: 1-315-622-0362 | | Delphi: chow2 | \---------------------------------------------------------------------------/
alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) (03/24/89)
In article <1918@cerberus.oakhill.UUCP> hunter@cerberus.UUCP (Hunter Scales) writes: > Nobody answers his questions.. does the AMMU introduce a wait > state or not? Yes it does. The lack of an MMU-caused wait state is most of the IIx's speed advantage over the II. Orchid Technology just introduced a cache board that sells for only $295 which will speed up a Mac II 20-30%, on average, just by eliminating most of the waits. I just bought one, and I'll let the net know how it is when I actually get it. This is one of the things I reamed Apple for when they introduced the II, two years ago. It was incredibly stupid to not build a cache into the Mac. Here we see a small third-party company can make a profit retrofitting a cache onto the Mac for $300. Apple could have done it for pennies, and they didn't. Purely typical. When is Apple going to realize that power sells computers? It's time to stop taking shortcuts in the hardware in order to save a few cents here and there. Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.uucp
bcase@cup.portal.com (Brian bcase Case) (04/03/89)
>Why not just skip the wimpy II -> IIx upgrade (you only get a 10-15% >speedup, and no, the PMMU is not currently used at all by MacOS, only >AU/X) and go for a 3rd party 33MHz 68030 upgrade. It'll probably >cost you less... So far, the only 33MHz '030 upgrades I have seen are in the $4K range (discount!). Are there any cheap ones? And, how much improvement can be had from the Orchid '020 cache card? It is only $300 (I think), but the improvement seems minimal.... (I can use all the CPU I can get for doing FreeHand graphics....).