cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) (03/29/89)
Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400 resolution of the ST. Collin Douglas P.S. I actually do own an Apple
spector@vx2.GBA.NYU.EDU (David HM Spector) (03/29/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP>, cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > > Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition > that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard > it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to > clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400 > resolution of the ST. > Collin Douglas > : I think you're a little of the mark... So far all of the Atari compatible widgets that "emulate" a Macintosh currently use real Apple ROMs obtain from where ever one obtains such things. I am suprised that no one from Apple has yet pointed out that the use of Apple's ROMs in things like the MagicSack and the Spectre128 are blatantly illegal. Apple's license agreement clearly states that Apple's software is for use in APPLE EQUIPMENT ONLY. Last time I checked my Macintosh didn't say MagicSack or Laser128 anywhere on it... _DHMS PS: Despite my surname, I have nothing to do with anyone mentioned above. In fact, I have the name **long** before they did... :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David HM Spector New York University Unix Manager/Senior Systems Programmer Stern School of Business ARPAnet: SPECTOR@GBA.NYU.EDU Academic Computing Center USEnet:...!{uunet,rocky,harvard}!cmcl2!spector 90 Trinity Place, Rm C-4 HamRadio: N2BCA (44.68.0.50) MCIMail: DSpector New York, New York 10006 AppleLink: DHMSpector CompuServe: 71260,1410 (212) 285-6080 "Capital punishment is our society's recognition of the sanctity of human life" - Senator Orrin Hatch
gwangung@blake.acs.washington.edu (Roger Tang) (03/30/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > > Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition > that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard Spectre 128s are made by Gadgets by Small. They do not use cloned Mac 128 ROMs. They use actual Mac128K Roms, usually sold by Apple dealers, under an agreement by Apple and Small not to market a device that has to make use of the most current version of Mac ROMs. That said, I have to say that the Spectres are very good Mac emulators with very few applications that refuse to run (those that don't usually broke the rules anyway). There will even be a hardware addon to read Mac disks directly.
krein@dg.dg.com (Todd Krein) (03/31/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > > Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition > that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard > it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to > clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400 > resolution of the ST. I recall reading about this in MacWeek. Didn't they that the Atari box used real Apple (tm) 128k roms? The cloning challenge remains.... Todd Krein krein@dg.UUCP -- Todd Krein krein@dg.UUCP
bdeskin@cognos.uucp (Bob Deskin) (03/31/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > > Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition > that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard > it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to > clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400 > resolution of the ST. Actually, the ROMs were not cloned, as they are copyright by Apple. David Small, the creator of Spectre 128 (and a device called the Magic Sac before it), uses the standard Apple Mac 128K ROMs in a cartridge plugged into the side of the Atari ST. His software handles emulating the rest - i.e. interfacing between what the Mac operating system expects and what the ST has. It runs at ST speeds with a larger screen. He is currently working on a version that will allow the Atari ST disk drive to read and write Mac disks directly without conversion. Now that's a hack. (and I have an Atari ST at home, but no Spectre alas, and a Mac SE at work). -- Bob Deskin Cognos Incorporated (613) 738-1338 ext 5003 P.O. Box 9707 FAX (613) 738-0002 3755 Riverside Drive UUCP: uunet!mitel!sce!cognos!bdeskin Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA K1G 3Z4
mdh@linus.UUCP (Mike Houle (version .6 beta)) (03/31/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > > Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition > that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard > it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to > clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400 > resolution of the ST. > > Collin Douglas > >P.S. I actually do own an Apple Actually I believe I have heard about this beasty, and to make it work, you have to go out and by the 128k ROMS, and install them in the box. The box does not come with a copy of the ROMS to the best of my knowledge. This was the only way that they might be able to avoid a law-suit (BTW what color is a law-suit, blue with grey pin stripes @-). So, as far as I believe, you Can run Mac software wth 640x400, but you have to go out and buy a Mac first.... Mike -- Mike Houle | mdh@linus.mitre.org | I was always sad that I was behind the ! UUCP -> decvax!linus!mdh | times till I met a man with a ! ARPA -> mdh%linus@mitre-bedford | 512K Mac
caromero@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (C. Antonio Romero) (04/01/89)
In article <122@dg.dg.com> krein@dg.UUCP (Todd Krein) writes: >In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: >> Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? >I recall reading about this in MacWeek. >Didn't they that the Atari box used real Apple (tm) 128k roms? Yes, they did. Spectre is selling pretty well. The only obstacle is that disk I/O speed is currently pretty low (a device called a "Translator One" allows reading and writing Mac disks, but not very swiftly). This will be overcome fairly soon with the introduction of a new version of the product, called for some reason the Spectre GCR. It is, I think, expected to be out before summer. >The cloning challenge remains.... Probably, anyway... like I said, some claim to have succeeded. But I wonder how the look and feel thing will affect the possibility of cloning the 'look' of the Macintosh ROMS. As some other poster pointed out, it might prove illegal to clone them because you'd be recreating the look of the popup menus-- an interesting angle on the problem. -Antonio Romero romero@confidence.princeton.edu
ngg@bridge2.3Com.Com (Norman Goodger) (04/01/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes:
Has anyone heard of Spectre 128 for the Atari ST? It is a hardware addition
that make the ST fully compatible with MAc software. From what I have heard
it works EXTREMELY well. you see, it is not as impossible as you think to
clone the Mac ROMs. It even runs everything at full speed in 640X400
resolution of the ST.
Actually the Spectre 128 uses REAL APPLE ROMS that are bought at a variety
of places, which its not perfectly clear how they are getting them, but
I guess they exist somehow thru repair channels. The Spectre comes with
no ROM's you have to find them ffor yourself. Then the next problem is
getting Mac Software on your ST, since the only way thru some sort of
disk translator which takes forever. ie Super slowwwww....
--
Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862
3Com Corp. Co-Sysop FreeSoft RT - GEnie.
Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything)oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (David Phillip Oster) (04/01/89)
In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: > You see, it is not as impossible as you think to clone the Mac ROMs. Here is why a legal clone of the Macintosh ROMs is impossible: The legal cloning process involves two teams: an analysis team and a synthesis team. The analysis team disassembles the ROM to be copied and writes a spec for the synthesis team. The synthesis team writes a program from the spec that is functionally equivalent to the original ROM. Since the synthesis team never sees the original code, the cloning company can argue in court that they didn't copy the expression of an idea, and where the code is similar, it is because the fundamental mathematical idea, which is uncopyrightable, is necesarily expressed this way. Now you would think that the Macintosh ROMs would characterized by the 500 or so tooltraps and operating system traps. But, that isn't good enough. Apple's system software on disk searches the stack to see who called it, performs functions based on the calling address, and occasionally patches the stack to return to some address other than the caller. Apple does this as a way of conserving the RAM they need to correct bugs in the ROMs, but it is, as a side effect, a great way of foiling cloning. Now, you could, in theory take account of all of this, and write a spec that caught every case in Apple's system software. But, what about the version of the system software that will come out next year? Particularly since Apple is free to make changes that deliberately louse up the clones, and since the clones are prohibited by law from modifying Apple's disk based software. Even this you could account for by cloning the ROMs, and also the disk based operating system software. Try and do this in without nbeing years behind, and without running afoul of "look-and-feel". --- David Phillip Oster --"When we replace the mouse with a pen, Arpa: oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu --3 button mouse fans will need saxophone Uucp: {uwvax,decvax}!ucbvax!oster%dewey.soe.berkeley.edu --lessons." - Gasee
earhard@dalcsug.UUCP (Mark Earhard) (04/03/89)
In article <122@dg.dg.com> krein@dg.UUCP (Todd Krein) writes: >In article <2782@uokmax.UUCP> cbdougla@uokmax.UUCP (Collin Broadrick Douglas) writes: >> >> it works EXTREMELY well. Maybe it's been a while since I've seen this thing run, but from the only demo I ever saw it launched Word (unknown version, it was before 3.0 I think) (this took forever on a one drive ST) and sat there while I talked to the sailsman for about five minutes, then crashed all on it's own. > >Didn't they that the Atari box used real Apple (tm) 128k roms? The cloning >challenge remains.... > The version I saw sold you the cartrage with the roms un-installed. Yes, it has to use APPLE roms. Mark Earhard me@dalac.BITNET earhard@dalcsug.UUCP
fischer@arisia.Xerox.COM (Ronald A. Fischer) (04/04/89)
About two years ago a company claimed to have cloned the Mac ROMS under ms-dos. The resolution was apparently that Apple simply bought them out (they were a very small company) and sat on the software. In the ms-dos domain exact binary compatibility would not have been an issue, but duplicate functionality would have eaten market share. (ron)
landman%hanami@Sun.COM (Howard A. Landman) (04/07/89)
In article <433@vx2.GBA.NYU.EDU> spector@vx2.GBA.NYU.EDU (David HM Spector) writes: >I am suprised that no one from Apple has yet pointed out that the use >of Apple's ROMs in things like the MagicSack and the Spectre128 are >blatantly illegal. Not exactly. Use of *copies* *of* Apple's ROMs is blatantly illegal. There has been no decision on use of the actual ROMs from a scrap Mac. I don't think Apple *wants* to try this one in court, because a loss would hurt them deeply, but a win wouldn't buy them much. >Apple's license agreement clearly states that Apple's software is for >use in APPLE EQUIPMENT ONLY. Last time I checked my Macintosh didn't >say MagicSack or Laser128 anywhere on it... You can say anything you want. The question is, can you enforce it? Howard A. Landman landman@hanami.sun.com
pa2137@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (pa2137) (04/08/89)
The Spectre 128 requires store bought MAC 128 Roms. It emulates nearly perfect, except for some copyprotected stuff and some terminal stuff ( I also don't believe that sound works with it either... ) Software must be Xfered to the Atari ST via Translator hardware ( slow, expensive ) , modem link (faster), or direct connect( real fast, need access to MAC). The end is result is 10% faster than a MAC SE and a 640x400 pixel display. A new version is due out that apparently lets the ST directly read MAC disks. Steve Wilson swilson@UCSD