chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (04/11/89)
This may seem like a strange comment, but have you checked your floppies
lately? The reason I ask such a strange thing is because over the weekend I
went in and cleaned up my floppy libraries (actually, converted them to
Retrospect -- I now have *lots* of spare floppies at home....) and did some
of the "spring computer houselcleaning" that rarely seems to be done.
One of the things I did was re-initialize all my DiskFit backups. The scary
part was that out of about 60 floppies (three different sets of full backups
over two machines) three of them failed initialization -- there were three
bad floppies in my backups.
I found this out at the perfect time -- when I could throw out the floppies
and build new backup sets. But think of the alternatives -- I was writing
critical data to a floppy with a defect, and even though the floppy verified
after being written, would you want to trust that you'll be able to read it
back off? Not me...
How old are the floppies in your backups? When was the last time you checked
that you could read them? I don't know about you, but I'm cycling my backup
sets every six months -- and if I can't re-format the old floppies, they go
away.
Think of it as a cautionary tale. Floppies do wear out -- and if you do
regular backups, the floppies in a backup set are going to get more wear
than the rest of your disks -- and you're unlikely to realize it's worn out
until the wrong possible moment.....
Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA
chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ
[This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.]
USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause
computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.sho@pur-phy (Sho Kuwamoto) (04/11/89)
In article <28718@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >One of the things I did was re-initialize all my DiskFit backups. The scary >part was that out of about 60 floppies (three different sets of full backups >over two machines) three of them failed initialization -- there were three >bad floppies in my backups. My disks die at an even greater rate. I would guess about 1 out of 10 per year, if not more. I'm using 3M disks, but I don't think that is the problem. I think the problem is that... (drum roll) I smoke. Oh well, another reason to quit. I'm not sure if the disks are getting damaged, or if the drive itself is being trashed. (hope not.) -Sho
rdsesq@Jessica.stanford.edu (Rob Snevely) (04/12/89)
Sho Kuwamoto writes: >My disks die at an even greater rate. I would guess about 1 out of 10 >per year, if not more. I'm using 3M disks, but I don't think that is >the problem. I think the problem is that... (drum roll) >I smoke. >Oh well, another reason to quit. I smoke and have had very few problems with disks maybe 1 or 2 per year. Obviously, this is just my experience. Your milage may vary. Well, with that said, I think its time for somemore vitamin N. rob rdsesq@jessica.stanford.edu **Disclaimer: I smoke, if you do, don't blame me.**
daf@genrad.com (David A. Fagan) (04/12/89)
In article <28718@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >[salient points deleted...:-)] > >One of the things I did was re-initialize all my DiskFit backups. The scary >part was that out of about 60 floppies (three different sets of full backups >over two machines) three of them failed initialization -- there were three >bad floppies in my backups. > Chuq's posting reminded me of something that I've been wondering about lately: How bad is a bad floppy? Sometimes, if a disk won't initialize, and I try it again, the initialization is succesesful. Sometimes, I'll try even a 3rd or 4th time and eventually have some luck. Problem is, I worry about those floopies that didn't format cleanly on the first try. I treat them as second-class floppies & don't put anything too important on them. Am I being paranoid? Can any one assure me (theoretical better than anectdotal) that a floppy that gets through an initialization is reliable for use with the Mac, no matter what it's condition before? Or, does anyone feel strongly that diskettes that fail initialization once should be thrown out? Dave Fagan |"Next time I will..." UUCP: ...genrad!bigvax!daf |"From now on I will..." Internet: daf@athena.mit.edu" |-What makes me think I'm wiser to day than | I'll be tomorrow? -Hugh Prather
clive@drutx.ATT.COM (Clive Steward) (04/12/89)
From article <28718@apple.Apple.COM>, by chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach): > One of the things I did was re-initialize all my DiskFit backups. The scary > part was that out of about 60 floppies (three different sets of full backups > over two machines) three of them failed initialization -- there were three > bad floppies in my backups. > Yes, I had just the same experience, almost right down to the numbers. Makes one wonder about the aging characteristics of the magnetic media actually used in the flops. Mine were Sony or Apple, too. Actually, Diskfit seems to benefit from getting the chance to reorder your files on the flops, by doing a complete from-scratch backup. So spring cleaning sounds right! Clive In Oregon, it _really_ is spring.
myers@vms.macc.wisc.edu (jeff myers) (04/16/89)
In article <28718@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes... >One of the things I did was re-initialize all my DiskFit backups. The scary >part was that out of about 60 floppies (three different sets of full backups >over two machines) three of them failed initialization -- there were three >bad floppies in my backups. I can relate, Chuq. I nearly got burned on three occasions, was able to restore the files that couldn't be read either from an offsite backup or original disk. I've since taken to religiously using the "Verify Writes" option under DiskFit. I've since caught one bad write, reinitialized the diskette on another Mac, and continued the backup. Jeff Myers@vms.macc.wisc.edu "procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday" -- Don Marquis, *certain maxims of archy*
jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway) (04/20/89)
In article <39434@think.UUCP> ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac) writes: >Harry Starr [...] >wrote a little utility for >verifying the format of floppies. He'd found that some floppies would >format cleanly, but couldn't hold their data. So, his practice was to >format floppies in advance, and then verify the format a few days >later, before using the floppies. > >Harry's utility, Disk Verify 1.1, is available from sumex as I can recommend it. I've had it a while, and found it useful and reliable. When it says a disc is good or bad, you can believe it. Confession: I never paid the shareware fee ($5). My copy is dated 1986. I dont know if the address on it is still valid. Can anyone tell me if Harry Starr is still reachable at 90 Haverhill St., Methuen, MA 01844? Another reason I never paid the fee is that it would cost me another $10 in bank charges to get a $ bank draft, which seems a bit silly. Does anyone have suggestions for a more practical form of payment? (Well, adding inflation plus guiltware fee for delaying so long would make the admin charge less disproportionate...) >Ephraim Vishniac / Internet: ephraim@think.com / AppleLink: ThinkingCorp >Thinking Machines Corporation / 245 First Street / Cambridge, MA 02142-1214 -- Richard Kennaway SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich, U.K. uucp: ...mcvax!ukc!uea-sys!jrk Janet: kennaway@uk.ac.uea.sys
ephraim@think.COM (Ephraim Vishniac) (04/24/89)
In article <524@sys.uea.ac.uk> jrk@uea-sys.UUCP (Richard Kennaway) writes: >In article <39434@think.UUCP> ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac) writes: >>Harry Starr >>wrote a little utility for verifying the format of floppies. >>Harry's utility, Disk Verify 1.1, is available from sumex as >I can recommend it. I've had it a while, and found it useful and >reliable. When it says a disc is good or bad, you can believe it. >Confession: I never paid the shareware fee ($5). My copy is dated 1986. >I dont know if the address on it is still valid. Can anyone tell me if >Harry Starr is still reachable at 90 Haverhill St., Methuen, MA 01844? I'm pretty sure he's not. When I last spoke to Harry, a few weeks after DiskVerify came out, he was soon to return to his permanent home in Australia. (Sorry, I don't know the address.) My understanding was that he's back in the U.S. intermittently, as required by his consulting, but not always in the same area. About international shareware payments. I've gotten them in various forms: US cash, postal money orders, bank drafts, and personal cheques. Certainly the cheapest (and riskiest) method for overseas users is to buy US $ at the bank. I suspect that many shareware authors would be happy with a diskette of local shareware or PD software from overseas. Sure beats the hassle of trying to negotiate foreign money orders! Just keep the idea of shareware in mind. Ephraim Vishniac / Internet: ephraim@think.com / AppleLink: ThinkingCorp Thinking Machines Corporation / 245 First Street / Cambridge, MA 02142-1214 "Arlo Guthrie, it seems, has found what he was looking for: God, and the Macintosh." (Boston Globe)
hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu (Robert J. Hammen) (04/24/89)
In article <39638@think.UUCP> ephraim@think.com (Ephraim Vishniac) writes: >In article <524@sys.uea.ac.uk> jrk@uea-sys.UUCP (Richard Kennaway) writes: >>Confession: I never paid the shareware fee ($5). My copy is dated 1986. >>I dont know if the address on it is still valid. Can anyone tell me if >>Harry Starr is still reachable at 90 Haverhill St., Methuen, MA 01844? > >I'm pretty sure he's not. When I last spoke to Harry, a few weeks >after DiskVerify came out, he was soon to return to his permanent home >in Australia. (Sorry, I don't know the address.) My understanding >was that he's back in the U.S. intermittently, as required by his >consulting, but not always in the same area. Harry Starr is the author of the Desktop Manager Fix I posted about earlier. He is currently working for Jasik Designs, I believe (at least that's how he signs his messages there). I think that if you write to him c/o Jasik, then it has a better chance of getting to him. Now, to find the address for Jasik Designs (MacNosy + The Debugger folks). I don't have it offhand, but imagine that MacTutor would be a good place to look... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / Robert Hammen | hammen@csd4.milw.wisc.edu | uwmcsd1!uwmcsd4!hammen / / Delphi: HAMMEN | GEnie: R.Hammen | CI$: 70701,2104 | MacNet: HAMMEN / / Bulfin Printers | 1887 N. Water | Milwaukee WI 53202 | (414) 271-1887 / / 3839 N. Humboldt #204 | Milwaukee WI 53212 | (414) 961-0715 (h) / ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
paul@torch.UUCP (Paul Andrews) (04/26/89)
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: >This may seem like a strange comment, but have you checked your floppies >lately?... I've worked in this industry for nigh on 10 years and in my experience roughly 1 out of 5 floppies will fail after 6 months. The reason for the failure seems to be partial faults in the media that cause the magnetic domains to 'float' after a certain length of time. If you repeatedly write to the floppy, it will probably be OK. But if you put data on and expect to be able to read it 6 months later, beware the 1 in 5 rule. An analogy would be having to continually refresh dynamic RAM's, only there the latency period is somewhat shorter. The moral of this story is: make more than one backup of the same data if it is REALLY critical. As chuq writes. If you EVER discover a floppy with a media error, throw it away. Re-initialising it will usually fix any existing faults, but they'll be back in a few months time. - Paul.
alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) (04/28/89)
Gee, funny you should mention this. I was discussing this very same subject
a week ago with someone who should know about this...
Me: "Does it seem to you that the quality of floppy disk _drives_ has gone
way down recently?"
Him: "What the hell do you think is going to happen when you take a $50
drive and eliminate $25 worth of parts???"
Me: "Oh."
In the past year I have noticed a large number of drives go out of alignment,
and I've seen a number with their tops heads broken. Looks like Apple is once
again shafting the customer in pursuit of a better gross margin.
Won't they ever learn? This may well turn out to be another problem of the
same magnitude as the bad power supplies. The big difference is that people
may never realize what's happening (unless/until their drives go entirely).
---
Alexis Rosen
alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet}
alexis@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (last resort)pratt@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Jonathan Pratt) (04/29/89)
In article <328@torch.UUCP> paul@torch.UUCP (Paul Andrews) writes: > >I've worked in this industry for nigh on 10 years and in my experience >roughly 1 out of 5 floppies will fail after 6 months. > My own experience suggests that this is somewhat pessimistic. With hundreds of disks in the last 10 years I've only had about five develop errors. And usually they gave warning signals, such as failing the first initialization, or making a lot of noise in the drive. I've always bought inexpensive disks too, though I admit I've found Sony's to be the best. >The moral of this story is: make more than one backup of the same data >if it is REALLY critical. > If it's REALLY critical you should also consider keeping copies in a completely separate location, ie., another building. >As chuq writes. If you EVER discover a floppy with a media error, throw >it away. OK, I admit I'm pretty cheap. When I find disks with bad blocks I initialize them with a utility that turns off the bad sectors. After that they work fine. My own conclusion is that you're pretty safe as as long as you make regular incremental backups of important work. Jonathan /* Jonathan Pratt Internet: pratt@boulder.colorado.edu * * Campus Box 525 uucp: ..!{ncar|nbires}!boulder!pratt * * University of Colorado * * Boulder, CO 80309 Phone: (303) 492-4293 */