ryland@mfci.UUCP (Chris Ryland) (04/26/89)
Are there any excellent VT100 emulation programs that can (a) keep up with 19200 modems, and (b) support 160 columns of text? Versaterm seems to do (a) fine, but only allows up to 132 columns. --Chris Ryland ryland@multiflow.com, ...!uunet!mfci!ryland
svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) (04/27/89)
In article <813@m3.mfci.UUCP>, ryland@mfci.UUCP (Chris Ryland) writes: > Are there any excellent VT100 emulation programs that can > (a) keep up with 19200 modems, and (b) support 160 columns > of text? > Many communications products on the Macintosh will do (a) just fine, but doing (b) will be a bit hard since THERE IS NO SUCH THING!! According to the DEC VT100/ANSI standard there are only provisions for a 80 and a 132 column VT100 terminal (and therefore VT100 emulators as well). If you can show me a spec for a 160 column VT100, I would love to see it! -- +--------------------------------------------------+ Leonard Rosenthol | GEnie : MACgician Lazerware, inc. | MacNet: MACgician UUCP: svc@well.UUCP | ALink : D0025
jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (04/28/89)
In article <11425@well.UUCP> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: >In article <813@m3.mfci.UUCP>, ryland@mfci.UUCP (Chris Ryland) writes: >> Are there any excellent VT100 emulation programs that can >> (a) keep up with 19200 modems, and (b) support 160 columns >> of text? >> > Many communications products on the Macintosh will do (a) just fine, >but doing (b) will be a bit hard since THERE IS NO SUCH THING!! According >to the DEC VT100/ANSI standard there are only provisions for a 80 and a 132 >column VT100 terminal (and therefore VT100 emulators as well). > If you can show me a spec for a 160 column VT100, I would love to >see it! There is not such thing as a perfect VT100 emulator. There are always differences. The VT100 documentation only provides escape codes for putting the terminal into 80 or 132 column mode, but it doesn't stop people using other terminal sizes. (From telnet for example.) The original poster wanted to have two EMACS windows side by side. This is a perfectly good reason for wanting 160 columns, although I would either prefer using something like uw or telnet or setting the terminal to have more than 24 rows. There's no reason why an emulator should be limited to 80x24 or 132x24. You just have to define that an "excellent VT100 emulation" can be in 160 columns. WARNING: Commercial follows: My program supports any terminal size, as long as it has less than 32768 characters in it. (How would you like 160x204?) Currently the window is sized according to the terminal screen, but a future version will probably make sure that the window isn't originally larger than the screen. The program is not available outside Finland. I'll try to release an English version when I have all the goodies done... :-) _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) (05/01/89)
In article <21712@santra.UUCP>, jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) writes: > In article <11425@well.UUCP> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > >In article <813@m3.mfci.UUCP>, ryland@mfci.UUCP (Chris Ryland) writes: > >> [Comments about a 160 column VT100 emulator] > > There is not such thing as a perfect VT100 emulator. There are always > differences. The VT100 documentation only provides escape codes for > putting the terminal into 80 or 132 column mode, but it doesn't stop > people using other terminal sizes. (From telnet for example.) > I will agree with you that there is no such thing as a perfect VT100 emulator, both w/regard to emulating the STANDARD VT100 and to extensions to the STANDARD. However it seems to me that extensions should be made with care and with some standardization. For example, the most common extension to the VT100 on the Macintosh is the presence of the scrollback buffer. Also the ability to select text, and use the editMenu command on it. Extending the VT100 with things such as >24 lines and >132 columns (or other wierd combinations) is, I guess, a nice thing to do, but what I don't see is how you can do that within the confines of the DEC VT100/ANSI specs. For example, when you do when the host issues the ESC[?3h or 3l to put it into 80 or 132 mode? Is that what you do? Is that what you SHOULD DO?? > The original poster wanted to have two EMACS windows side by side. This > is a perfectly good reason for wanting 160 columns, although I would > either prefer using something like uw or telnet or setting the terminal > to have more than 24 rows. There's no reason why an emulator should > be limited to 80x24 or 132x24. You just have to define that an "excellent > VT100 emulation" can be in 160 columns. > I am still trying to figure out how you would convince the HOST to give you two EMACS windows side by side...Anyway, I am not staying that having >132 columns is not a reasonable request, I am simply saying that this is the type of feature that needs to be WELL THOUGHT OUT before being implemented otherwise my 160 column emulator may/will not work like yours and users will complain as they thought VT100 was a standard!??!? -- +--------------------------------------------------+ Leonard Rosenthol | GEnie : MACgician Lazerware, inc. | MacNet: MACgician UUCP: svc@well.UUCP | ALink : D0025
shap@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro) (05/01/89)
If you feel compelled to tell the poster what he meant to ask, you might at least have the courtesy to answer his question. If I cared what happens in the case where the terminal is told to go into 80 vs 132 column mode, I wouldn't be interested in a large vt100. The people who are asking for this are probably interested in talking to a UNIX system, have a large monitor, and have enjoyed using xterm or news, which lets terminal windows be essentially arbitrary size. It makes a lot of difference whether I get 24 lines or 60, and 80 columns vs 200. A large number of environments support this functionality. The issues are very well understood. Leonard clearly just isn't familiar with the work that has been going on in this area for many years. I agree with the view that extensions to be standardized should be considered carefully. The battle here is over the word "standard," and it's a goddamn waste of time. Leonard knows perfectly well what the guy wanted. I am not aware of any Macintosh terminal emulators that do VT100 emulation (or any other kind) in greater than 24/80 columns. It would be a very valuable feature for many users, and those of you out there who have done terminal emulation programs would do well to consider adding it. I would be very interested in getting my hands on such an emulator - I have the same problem, and have finally been driven to consider doing one myself. Jon
jmunkki@kampi.hut.fi (Juri Munkki) (05/01/89)
In article <11468@well.UUCP> svc@well.UUCP (Leonard Rosenthol) writes: > I will agree with you that there is no such thing as a perfect VT100 >emulator, both w/regard to emulating the STANDARD VT100 and to extensions to >the STANDARD. However it seems to me that extensions should be made with >care and with some standardization. For example, the most common extension to >the VT100 on the Macintosh is the presence of the scrollback buffer. Also >the ability to select text, and use the editMenu command on it. Right. Without these extensions a terminal emulator is not worth using. > Extending the VT100 with things such as >24 lines and >132 columns (or >other wierd combinations) is, I guess, a nice thing to do, but what I don't >see is how you can do that within the confines of the DEC VT100/ANSI specs. >For example, when you do when the host issues the ESC[?3h or 3l to put it >into 80 or 132 mode? Is that what you do? Is that what you SHOULD DO?? I took a look at what VersaTerm does when the window is resized to something larger than 24 rows. A reset or ESC[r will default to the large screen size. VMS & Unix first send an ESC[1;24r thus leaving a few lines below the scrolling window. In unix I then type 'stty rows 36 ; reset', which changes the screen size. After that, every program I've tried works just fine. The reason is probably that window systems on unix have offered these nonstandard sizes for ages. The same thing can be done with the screen width. The only problem is that there is no escape code to do that. Currently my program quickly changes back to 80 or 132 columns when it receives the escape. You have to be careful that the program doesn't see one of these commands. > I am still trying to figure out how you would convince the HOST to >give you two EMACS windows side by side...Anyway, I am not staying that having >>132 columns is not a reasonable request, I am simply saying that this is the >type of feature that needs to be WELL THOUGHT OUT before being implemented >otherwise my 160 column emulator may/will not work like yours and users will >complain as they thought VT100 was a standard!??!? The distributed version comes with a 80x24 or 132x24, but you can change the default size with a ResEdit template (there will be a special defaults editor). I think I'll allow the user to specify how many columns the 80 and 132 column modes have. This way anybody who wants to use these features (like 160 columns instead of 132) can do it. Most of the parameters than can be changes with ResEdit (or the defaults editor) can result in strange behaviour in one or the other way. One of the things you can do is change the font used on the screen or for printing. I'm currently using Courier-10 instead of the default font and it works fine, although you can't use the VT100 graphics character set. I've also tried nonproportional fonts and they work well for reading news & other stuff that doesn't require editing. I might restrict the defaults editor to nonproportional fonts. You could still use Palatino for printing... I think it is important to let the users decide what they can use. (Even if they happen to be wrong.) _._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._ | Juri Munkki jmunkki@hut.fi jmunkki@fingate.bitnet I Want Ne | | Helsinki University of Technology Computing Centre My Own XT | ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) (05/01/89)
In article <8868@polya.Stanford.EDU>, shap@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro) writes: > > I am not aware of any Macintosh terminal emulators that do VT100 > emulation (or any other kind) in greater than 24/80 columns. It would > be a very valuable feature for many users, and those of you out there > who have done terminal emulation programs would do well to consider > adding it. > > I would be very interested in getting my hands on such an emulator - I > have the same problem, and have finally been driven to consider doing > one myself. > > Jon Mac220, Mac240, and Mac241 from White Pine support 132-column mode. But you better have good eyes. On the recent announcements that White Pine send out about Mac220 (their VT220 emulator) and Mac241 (COLOR VT241 emulator), there was a picture on the front of the brochure that showed a VT220 window that was twice as long as it was wide. I would guess that it was at least 50 lines long. And if I remember right, they were editing a Pascal program in it using a DECnet CTERM connection that supports multiple sessions, so there were several windows on the screen, each being a different size... If anyone knows just exactly what this is, let me know. By the way, I use the Mac240 product very much. It is a very good package. The ReGIS graphics aren't as exact as they need to be at times, but all of the other features make it worth the while, especially at educational discounts. I must confess, though, that my situation is stable: I have one serial line that runs at 19200 bps that I use to connect to any one of the campus mainframes, so I never have to change from the settings for that line. I also have a modem, but I only use that for AppleLink. -Michael -- Michael Niehaus UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!mithomas Apple Student Rep ARPA: mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu Ball State University AppleLink: ST0374 (from UUCP: st0374@applelink.apple.com)
sho@pur-phy (Sho Kuwamoto) (05/02/89)
In article <8868@polya.Stanford.EDU> shap@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro) writes: >I am not aware of any Macintosh terminal emulators that do VT100 >emulation (or any other kind) in greater than 24/80 columns. Versaterm will do 132 columns, and as many rows as you desire. I have a regular Mac II screen, so I only do 80/36.... Well, more rows is probably more useful than more columns in either case. -Sho