sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu (Milt Sagen) (05/08/89)
This weekend I had the opportunity to work with a Deskjet+ and two of the commerical drivers available for it, namely the DataPak driver and the Grappler LS. Three things in the Grappler LS's favor was it supplied three fonts, worked with TeXtures (although to get 300 dpi I had to manipulate the fonts supplied with TeXtures), and seemed to be a bit faster at 300 dpi printing than the DataPak. However, the DataPak can print at three different resolutions; 300, 150 and 75 dpi; I could get the Grappler to print at 300 and 75 dpi only (actually I think its 288 and 72). This ability to print at 150 dpi is a strong plus in favor of the DataPak. The Deskjet is no match when compared to a postscript printer but with the 150 dpi printing it is a definite alternative to the Imagewriter. I haven't used a Deskjet but if, as some people have suggested in this group, there is no improvement in speed between the Deskjet and the Deskjet+ when run from a mac, then for approximately $210 dollars more you can get a printer that is 2 to 3 times faster than an Imagewriter. This price difference is based on a price of $410 for an Imagewriter, $520 for a Deskjet, and $100 for the DataPak driver (although the HPDJ may be just as good and free). The price for the Imagewriter is bOSo U's. The times quoted above are not concrete, they were obtained by watching a digital clock. When I printed a page of a document in Nisus the time on the Imagewriter was approximately 5 minutes whereas with the Deskjet+ at 150 dpi it took about 2 minutes. Printing at 300 dpi the page took about 7 minutes. Just thought someone might be interested. Milt Sagen Internet: sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu Department of Physics Oregon State University Corvallis, OR 97331 Tele: (503) 754-4631
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (05/10/89)
>definite alternative to the Imagewriter. I haven't used a Deskjet but >if, as some people have suggested in this group, there is no improvement >in speed between the Deskjet and the Deskjet+ when run from a mac, then >for approximately $210 dollars more you can get a printer that is 2 to 3 >times faster than an Imagewriter. This statement surprises me. The DeskJet is not IO limitted at 19.2K baud but the DeskJet+ is IO limitted. In fact, on a DeskJet using 9600 and 19.2K baud makes little difference but on a DeskJet+ this makes a big difference (2X). If your DeskJet driver uses our data compaction modes a page of 300DPI graphics will typically be about 200K (sometimes more, sometimes less). At 19.2 K baud this is about 2K per seconds so it should take 100 seconds to print on a DeskJet+. If your driver really building a page fast enough and using the data compression modes a DeskJet+ at 19.2 K baud should be about twice as fast as a DeskJet. I see a couple of possibilities: 1) Is you printer driver optimized for the DeskJet/DeskJet+? This means does it use data compression (mode 2)? There are some pseudo data compression tricks that are often done for the LaserJet printer that makes the DeskJet SLOWER. This mainly involves compressing data by continually changing margins. This achieves performance improvement on a LaserJet but performance degredation on a DeskJet/DeskJet+. 2) Are you printing some sort of page that does not compress well (like a scanned image)? Like I said, mode 2 compression generally results in a 200K file versus the 1000K file of uncompressed graphics. If it really took 7 minutes to print a page at 19.2 K baud it sure sounds like the data is uncompressed or does not compress well. 3) You are using 19.2 K baud aren't you? This is not the default BAUD rate of a DeskJet or DeskJet+. The DeskJet is about the same speed in printing simple text as the DeskJet+ but when it comes to graphics the DeskJet+ is much better. Maximum graphics performance of course requires a parallel port on a DeskJet+. On a DeskJet parallel versus serial at 9600 or 19.2 K baud made little difference when printing graphics. For a DeskJet+ parallel performance is 5X a DeskJet for 300 DPI graphics. Mac users might want to try a 57K baud to parallel conversion box when printing to a DeskJet+. Dave Neff hplabs!hpvcfs1!neff
paulm@nikhefk.UUCP (Paul Molenaar) (05/10/89)
In article <10452@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu (Milt Sagen) writes:
#
#This weekend I had the opportunity to work with a Deskjet+ and two of
#the commerical drivers available for it, namely the DataPak driver and
#the Grappler LS.
#
#Three things in the Grappler LS's favor was it supplied three fonts,
#worked with TeXtures (although to get 300 dpi I had to manipulate the
#fonts supplied with TeXtures), and seemed to be a bit faster at 300 dpi
#printing than the DataPak.
#
#However, the DataPak can print at three different resolutions; 300, 150
#and 75 dpi; I could get the Grappler to print at 300 and 75 dpi only
#(actually I think its 288 and 72). This ability to print at 150 dpi is
#a strong plus in favor of the DataPak. The Deskjet is no match when
#compared to a postscript printer but with the 150 dpi printing it is a
From what I understand, HP now hase some sort of agreement with Apple
in the printer-area. HP will provide the DeskJet and the PaintJet
in the platinum Mac-colors, including the necessary cabling and
printer drivers.
Using a serial DeskJet (doesn't it come with both a Centronics and
a serial interface?) would be just like operating any other
supported printer.
The ScanJet scanner (which is really beautiful: 256 gray-scales!) will
also have a 'platinum edition'.
PS I think everything is fine as long as they don't call it the
'New Wave' printers ;)
Paul Molenaar
"Just checking the walls"
- Basil Fawlty -
--
Paul Molenaar
"Just checking the walls"
- Basil Fawlty -sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu (Milt Sagen) (05/10/89)
In article <780003@hpvcfs1.HP.COM> neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) writes: >>if, as some people have suggested in this group, there is no improvement >>in speed between the Deskjet and the Deskjet+ when run from a mac, then > >This statement surprises me. The DeskJet is not IO limitted at 19.2K baud >but the DeskJet+ is IO limitted. In fact, on a DeskJet using 9600 and As my original posting stated this is what other people reported. I've never used a Deskjet. > >1) Is you printer driver optimized for the DeskJet/DeskJet+? This >means does it use data compression (mode 2)? There are some Can't say. I would have thought the DataPak driver is, and I would not be suprised if the Grappler LS were not as it fakes out the applications into thinking its an IW LQ. I've yet to test the HPDJ but the manual says it does use data compaction but it does not say whether it is mode 1 or 2. Would that matter? > >2) Are you printing some sort of page that does not compress well (like >a scanned image)? Like I said, mode 2 compression generally results No. I was printing some of the tech notes. >in a 200K file versus the 1000K file of uncompressed graphics. If it >really took 7 minutes to print a page at 19.2 K baud it sure sounds >like the data is uncompressed or does not compress well. > >3) You are using 19.2 K baud aren't you? This is not the default >BAUD rate of a DeskJet or DeskJet+. Yes, switch 5 of bank 2 is up. > >Mac users might want to try a 57K baud to parallel conversion box when >printing to a DeskJet+. I have access to a conversion box though its max speed may be 9600, I'll have to look, but all the drivers I've seen so far don't support speeds above 19.2. Since, you are from HP Vancouver, I would like to make one complaint about the Deskjet+, the sizes/pitches for the Courier font suck. Why not at least a 9 point Courier and/or 12 cpi pitch. Milt Sagen Internet: sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu Department of Physics Oregon State University Corvallis, OR 97331 Tele: (503) 754-4631
sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu (Milt Sagen) (05/10/89)
In article <547@nikhefk.UUCP> paulm@nikhefk.UUCP (Paul Molenaar) writes: >From what I understand, HP now hase some sort of agreement with Apple >in the printer-area. HP will provide the DeskJet and the PaintJet >in the platinum Mac-colors, including the necessary cabling and >printer drivers. The Deskjet+ I have might be considered a platinum color but then my Mac+ is beige. It came with no cables or driver. > >Using a serial DeskJet (doesn't it come with both a Centronics and >a serial interface?) would be just like operating any other >supported printer. It has both a Centronics and serial interface, and operating it with the third party drivers is just like any other supported printer. Except in those applications that specifically rely on the Apple printers. Milt Sagen Internet: sagen@nucthy.physics.orst.edu Department of Physics Oregon State University Corvallis, OR 97331 Tele: (503) 754-4631
straka@ihlpf.ATT.COM (Straka) (05/11/89)
I guess it doesn't seem too obvious to HP. So I'll just say it here: It sure sounds like if HP could team up the DeskJet with 1) a serious Macintosh printer driver for the DJ 2) an AppleTalk compatible port they would have a real winner here! 2 is obviously an optional item, but would be a real help. Is someone (with the right connections) at HP listening? -- Rich Straka att!ihlpf!straka MSDOS: All the wonderfully arcane syntax of UNIX(R), but without the power.
alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) (05/22/89)
In article <780003@hpvcfs1.HP.COM> neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) writes: > [...] The DeskJet is not IO limitted at 19.2K baud >but the DeskJet+ is IO limitted. In fact, on a DeskJet using 9600 and >19.2K baud makes little difference but on a DeskJet+ this makes a big >difference (2X). If your DeskJet driver uses our data compaction modes a page >of 300DPI graphics will typically be about 200K (sometimes more, sometimes >less). At 19.2 K baud this is about 2K per seconds so it should take >100 seconds to print on a DeskJet+. [...] OK. I am just about ready to get a DeskJet to play with (might be a good printer for some clients). The big question is: Do any of the drivers out there work well with a serial/parallel converter? I can't see why not, but they might not make use of the higher speed (depends on how fast they can build the page). I'd like to use MacPrint with a parallel cable, if it will work well. I've got a Mac II with a cache, so there's plenty of CPU for the driver to use. I primarily print text, but some of my clients do a lot of graphics and page layout. I guess none of this will matter in another nine months. System 7 will make these kinds of printers much more attractive to the masses. --- Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet} alexis@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (last resort)
dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) (05/23/89)
In article <2042@ccnysci.UUCP> alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) writes: > OK. I am just about ready to get a DeskJet to play with (might be a good > printer for some clients). The big question is: Do any of the drivers out > there work well with a serial/parallel converter? I can't see why not, but > they might not make use of the higher speed (depends on how fast they can > build the page). I'd like to use MacPrint with a parallel cable, if it will > work well. I've got a Mac II with a cache, so there's plenty of CPU for the > driver to use. I primarily print text, but some of my clients do a lot of > graphics and page layout. None of the drivers with which I'm familiar are configured to send data at > 19200 bps. Pushing serial data into a serial/parallel converter at 19200 bps would probably not speed up a DeskJet. It might speed up a DeskJet Plus somewhat because the Plus uses DMA to gobble data over the parallel interface, rather than polling the parallel port periodically (and thus there might be some extra CPU cycles left for doing the printing). I would not expect a major speedup, though. You might be able to take an off-the-shelf driver (MacPrint or DataPak, for example) and patch it so that it would spit bits at 38400 bps. If you have a serial/parallel converter that works at this speed, you could probably get better speed out of the DeskJet Plus. You might also be able to take an off-the-shelf driver and patch it to work with the Hurdler-CPI or some other Centronics-compatible driver card for the Mac II. This would be more work, though... the _Control calls are substantially different. > I guess none of this will matter in another nine months. System 7 will make > these kinds of printers much more attractive to the masses. Yes, these printers will be much more attractive once the new Print Shop architecture hits the street. The issue of getting large amounts of rasterized data down into the printer will remain... 19200 bits/sec just doesn't cut it. Also, based on word I've received from a couple of sources, you should probably not consider purchasing a DeskJet or a Plus for use with a Mac for the next several weeks. The details I have are sketchy, but they lead me to believe that HP is going to be announcing a DeskJet model which is customized for the Mac. Its price is said to be the same as that of a DeskJet Plus. I was told by one user (who actually has an order pending for one, overseas!) that it comes with a Mac driver, has a Mac-specific ROM, and has an AppleTalk interface. I was told by another knowledgeable person that "this isn't quite right", but that I'll recognize the announcement when I see it. Actually, if there were one thing that HP could do to the DeskJet to make it more attractive for use with the Mac, I think it would be to substitute a SCSI interface for the Centronics parallel port (and, of course, provide a software driver that could access the SCSI channel). This technology has already been proven, with the LaserWriter IIsc and the Personal Laser Printer. A SCSI interface would quite effectively eliminate the data-transfer channel as the bottleneck; the printer's speed would be limited by its print mechanism and/or by the speed with which the Mac could rasterize the data. -- Dave Platt FIDONET: Dave Platt on 1:204/444 VOICE: (415) 493-8805 UUCP: ...!{ames,sun,uunet}!coherent!dplatt DOMAIN: dplatt@coherent.com INTERNET: coherent!dplatt@ames.arpa, ...@uunet.uu.net USNAIL: Coherent Thought Inc. 3350 West Bayshore #205 Palo Alto CA 94303