dabek@utgpu.UUCP (08/14/87)
I'm a new user of the 4th Dimesion Data Base. If anyone has any coments, tips, hints, sample applications or anything else that relates to 4-D, I would like to hear from you and will summarize the findings. Thanks. My address: Dariusz Dabek University of Toronto Computing Services 255 Huron Street, Room 350 Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
graifer@net1.UUCP (08/16/87)
I must have missed something. Has 4th-dimension been officially released? I
must have missed something when I was on vacation for two weeks.
Dan Graifer
graifer@net1.UCSD.EDU
Disclaimer: Nobody ever listens to me anyways; Why should they start now?socha@drivax.UUCP (Henri J. Socha (x6251)) (08/18/87)
In article <3662@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU> graifer@net1.UUCP (Dan Graifer) writes: >I must have missed something. Has 4th-dimension been officially released? I >must have missed something when I was on vacation for two weeks. Released? It's even in stores! ComputerCraft has it and you know how long it takes stuff to get through channels to Computer/Business/Craft/Land. -- UUCP:...!amdahl!drivax!socha WAT Iron'75 "Everything should be made as simple as possible but not simpler." A. Einstein
stuart@A.GP.CS.CMU.EDU (Edward Stuart) (12/06/87)
Keywords:
Hello there,
I am interested in comments about 4th Dimension. How easy is it to customize?
How much physical memory does it need? Bugs? How well is it supported?
Talk to me about the licencing agreement (I want to have 4th on a file server
connected to 4 to 6 Macs). What is the documentation like?
--
stuart@a.gp.cs.cmu.edu
--
stuart@a.gp.cs.cmu.eduzrm@eddie.MIT.EDU (Zigurd R. Mednieks) (12/06/87)
Capsule review of Fourth Dimention: Design tools: Very nice! My firm is using FD right now in a project at Bose with a business consultant from another consulting firm. She keeps changing her mind about what she wants in the database. No problem, in FD you just reconnect the lines (as long as you don't have more than a couple thousand records -- then changing your mind can get tedious). All this reconnecting can go on even while the database programming is being done. User interface: So so. It would, for instance, be nice to specify the presence or absence of scroll bars in the inteface design subsystem, but this is left to optional flags which maddeningly are not implemented in all ways that one can arrive at a given input screen. A few small details like this keep FD applications from looking like real Mac applications. Too bad. Network capability: If it works as well as it seems to, it is the best I have seen in any Mac application. You simply open your FD database from another network node and you have a multi-user transaction processing system. No effort at all. This is, to me, the most impressive feature of the system. Programming language: "ooh ick!" as Penfold would say. Yet another bastardized programming language. Too many data types, too few generic operators that work on all the data types you would expect them to work on. Sets, which are not like selections, which are not like subselections (and there is no "sub-set"), and which are all different from the current record (which might or might not be actually in the current selection, I think) all are manipulated with different sets of commands, even though they are all groups of records in database files. You can "call out" to external functions, but there is no access methods libraray that would let one access an FD database from another Mac application. Performance: Acceptable, but slow compared to Omnis3, this according to CPN, Inc. an Apple VAR that considered porting their VAR products to FD from Omnis. At Bose, we shall see if it is possible to keep track of over 1 million customers. If it is, they will move this data off their minis and on to MacIIs. A major coup for Macs in business -- if it works. I'll be impressed if it does work. Summary: It is the best there is, but it could be a lot better. My firm will be lookng at Inside Out, an RDMS implemented as a library for C and Pascal programs to use. This is what we really need to implement business applications both quickly and with a real Mac user interface. In the mean time, Fourth Dimention looks like the tool of choice. -Zigurd -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Zigurd Mednieks MURSU Corporation (617)424-0146 25 Exeter Street Boston, MA 02116
blaise@arthur.UUCP (Frank Blaise Modruson) (01/29/88)
what do you think of this product? How have you used it? Thanks in advance for any information you can provide. --->fbm> My UUCP address is: ...oddjob!arthur!blaise from internet: arthur!blaise@ODDJOB.UCHICAGO.EDU my phone is: (312) 507-2566 (I can call you back)
bill@upba.UUCP (02/03/88)
We began to use 4Dimension several weeks ago. The first implementation was used in our Denver office for a way to keep track of artwork and contracts in our Production department. Very little programming was done. We took full advantage of the menu system set up in User Mode. The response we have gotten from the users have been pretty good with the only gripe being, if more than one person wants to access the same record, it tends to freeze up until the first user is done with that record. Another problem is the initial transfer of information into this database. It can take up to 12 hours depending on the information. The good responses have been a variety. Excellant search times. Nice looking reports. Etc, Etc. We then decided to use the software in our collections department in Denver as a test place. The screens have been set up by one of our excellant programming specialists and through all the tests have proved to be excellant. My final recommendation, if you have the personnal that knows how to work in C and Unix, can definetly take full advantage of this softwares capability. The multi-user aspect also is a nice feature. Bill Wisell ihnp!np4!upba!bill 402/476-6478
sysop@stech.UUCP (Jan Harrington) (02/05/88)
in article <54300008@upba>, bill@upba.UUCP says: > Nf-ID: #R:arthur.UUCP:108:upba:54300008:000:1249 > Nf-From: upba.UUCP!bill Feb 2 14:34:00 1988 > > > > > > The response we have gotten from the users have been > pretty good with the only gripe being, if more than one > person wants to access the same record, it tends to > freeze up until the first user is done with that record. What you describe as "freezing up" is known as record locking. Record locking is essential in a multi-user database system. Unfortunately, 4D is slow enough that you're aware of it. (Without record locking, all sorts of bad things would happen to your data, leading to integrity and consistency problems). Jan Harrington, sysop Scholastech Telecommunications ihnp4!husc6!amcad!stech!sysop or allegra!stech!sysop ******************************************************************************** Miscellaneous profundity: "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai ********************************************************************************
bdm@pbhya.PacBell.COM (B. D. Miller) (03/05/89)
I'm looking for some comments, positive or negative, from anyone who's used or knows of a product called 4D and its performence as a Mac interface to Oracle.....
tancil@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Mark Tancil) (03/30/89)
A company I have done some part time work for is setting up a database using the 4th Dimension program and has a couple questions about it. They have had an outside consultant working on setting up the program and configuring it to their needs for nearly a year now, and they are wondering (1) if such a long time is common for getting the database running and (2) if the program performs well once everything was in place. Thank you for your comments. Mark Tancil tancil@cory.Berkeley.EDU ...!ucbvax!cory!tancil
steveg@tove.umd.edu (Steve Green) (03/30/89)
Well, its like this...4D is the best relational database for the mac but.... its got its problems. Once one learns about the bugs (not printed) and makes ones way thru the poor manuels, a solid database should be expected. The time it takes for a programmer to discover that the database has a problem, narrow it down to a particular call, and call acius to discover that it is indeed a bug could take some time. This is the voice of frustrated experiance. As far as weather it is un-reasonable for development to take a year depends on the database and how complex it is. Also, much depends on the programmer him/her- self.
bmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) (03/31/89)
In article <11632@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> tancil@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Mark Tancil) writes: >A company I have done some part time work for is setting up a database using >the 4th Dimension program and has a couple questions about it. They have had >an outside consultant working on setting up the program and configuring it to >their needs for nearly a year now, and they are wondering (1) if such a long >time is common for getting the database running and (2) if the program >performs well once everything was in place. > Some databases (not only those using 4th Dimension as the development system) can easily take more than a year to set up. The most common causes are: 1. Vague specifications from the client. 2. Inadequate debugging. 3. Change orders and other modification requests from the client. How the program performs is largely a function of the skill of the programmer; I've seen some 4th Dimension database applications that are absolutely spectacular; I've seen others that were about as attractive as the wrong end of a dog. BTW, if the database to which Mark Tancil refers is still in development, he and his company should be aware that a new version of 4D is in the works, which will have more features, be more powerful, easier to program, and faster. (Disclaimer: I have no connection with ACIUS, other than being a satisfied customer) John Heckendorn /\ BMUG ARPA: bmug@garnet.berkeley.EDU A__A 1442A Walnut St., #62 BITNET: bmug@ucbgarnet |()| Berkeley, CA 94709 | | (415) 549-2684 | |
mikey@ontek.UUCP (Mike Lee) (04/01/89)
IMHO, 4D blows away any other database programming environment.
It is also one of the toughest to program, IF YOU WANT TO GET THE MOST
POSSIBLE PERFORMANCE OUT IF IT. By this I mean that you can print
stuff out in any format you like, validate user input to the letter and
generally customize it to the point where 4D knows as much about the
data and what it should look like as the programmer does. This takes
time, as usual.
On the other hand, the average Joe can scrape together a few layouts
and just type in some data and PRESTO there is a database.
I may be bragging, but I think it should only take about six months
to get used to 4D's quirks. Pressure your consultant to get stuff
working, even if the output isn't perfectly formatted and the user
has to use buttons instead of menus.
The problems you are having with Mr/Ms. consultant may not be entirely
the his/her fault. 4D is buggy in many ways, but in my experience with
it, there is ALWAYS a workaround, but you have to have the guts to call
Acius and get it. Into this category fall many of the features that
make 4D the best. The text boxes in layouts can be buggy and the way
that your code is tied into the layouts is very non-intuitive, even if
it isn't buggy. The menu bar stuff is bizarre, but again, it will work
once you get the hang of it. One thing I never tried was multi-user
use of the same database. If that is part of the application I could
see many headaches just waiting to happen.
I switched to various other projects and haven't used 4D in about a
year. I am almost certain many of the bugs I had to work around have
been fixed since then. Make sure your consultant has enough in his
budget to get the most recent rev of 4D.
I must add that I found customer support at Acius to be among the best
I have encountered.
Mike Lee
Ontek Corporation
VOX: 1-714-768-0301
UUCP: ontek!banzai!mikey@uunet.uu.net
USPS: 22951 Mill Creek Road
Laguna Hills CA 92653
DISCLAIMER: In my opinion, my opinion is only an opinion.rs5o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Randall Knowles Smith) (04/02/89)
I'm nearly finished with a 4th Dim. database here at CMU. My thoughts and needs follow: Comments on 4th Dimension: The manual looks very good, and is quite authoritatively wrong or misleading in some parts. Not many, just enough to drive a beginner mad. Experts in Database programming probably wouldn't have any problems. Also, the program can be very slow at times; especially when running in a multi-user environment off a server. And this leads me into: Questions: This faster version of 4th Dim--Any due date at all? Is it DEFINATELY coming out? I'm somewhat desparate, because, you see, I'm a college student, just wrote my first 4th Dim. application, and it's SLOW. It's a grading program, and the TA's using it (6 of them) are already complaining. Next semester we'll have 10 times as many TA's and students. My name is known, I don't want to be lynched. So, I need help speeding the thing up. A new version of 4th dim. would be nice, but barring that, can anything be done? The major bottleneck at the moment is disk access. Ideas on how others have solved this problem (loading everything into memory, etc) would be greatly appreciated
dlw@hpsmtc1.HP.COM (David L. Williams) (04/04/89)
The latest date I've heard on 4D 2.0 is AUGUST! But you could always call Acius and ask them. -David
alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) (04/05/89)
In article <UYBGaHy00WB50oe7cW@andrew.cmu.edu> rs5o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Randall Knowles Smith) writes: >Comments on 4th Dimension: >The manual looks very good, and is quite authoritatively wrong or >misleading in some parts. Not many, just enough to drive a beginner >mad. Experts in Database programming probably wouldn't have any >problems. Also, the program can be very slow at times; especially when >running in a multi-user environment off a server. And this leads me into: That's not all. Often the manual is right and the program's wrong. Like when it crashes. Which it does frequently, especially in multi-user. Also, you're wrong. Even experts can go nuts trying to piece together the crazily implemented input loop. >Questions: >This faster version of 4th Dim--Any due date at all? Is it DEFINATELY >coming out? I'm somewhat desparate, because, you see, I'm a college >student, just wrote my first 4th Dim. application, and it's SLOW. It's definitely coming out. It will definitely be faster. It will definitely almost certainly probably I think maybe hopefully might just barely make it out before 1990. :-) Actually, I don't know what the holdup is. It should have been out a while ago, but maybe they decided to debug this version. >It's a grading program, and the TA's using it (6 of them) are already >complaining. Next semester we'll have 10 times as many TA's and >students. My name is known, I don't want to be lynched. So, I need >help speeding the thing up. A new version of 4th dim. would be nice, >but barring that, can anything be done? The major bottleneck at the >moment is disk access. Ideas on how others have solved this problem >(loading everything into memory, etc) would be greatly appreciated Well. You can get a faster disk. The best ones are the full-height CDC (now known as Imprimis) Wrens. Use accelerators, if you can. The only real answer, though, is the upgrade I took. I scrapped 4D in the middle of a big project, wrote off a month of my time, and used FoxBase. That was a VERY BIG DECISION. Then I made up my entire loss in TWO WEEKS! That made me feel a lot better. The difference is not to be believed. Fox really is 6 to 200 times faster than 4D. The most amazing thing is that this difference also applied to coding time (though not quite as dramatically). A large project that would have taken me three months to do in 4D got done in one month in FB. And the result was MUCH better. Faster, bug-free, didn't crash because the database engine went to lunch, and the user interface was lots better. Fox's big problem was the weak (read IBMish) report generator. But I had no major problems producing macish reports by programming. This is not hugely desireable, though, which is why they put a most amazing report generator into V2.0. The first Beta is finally here (Yeah!) and it's quite stable (unlike the Alphas). It should be out in early May. And Fox always meets their shipping deadlines. Realize that I've been hearing "Wait for 4D 1.1... 1.5... 2.0" for longer that FoxBase/Mac has existed! In that time Fox has introduced a major product and released one bug-free major upgrade. In four weeks time they will introduce another equally significant upgrade. Y'know, I almost feel sorry for Guy... --- Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet}
liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Joe Liemandt) (04/09/89)
In article <1505@ccnysci.UUCP> alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) writes: >In article <UYBGaHy00WB50oe7cW@andrew.cmu.edu> rs5o+@andrew.cmu.edu >(Randall Knowles Smith) writes: >>Comments on 4th Dimension: >>The manual looks very good, and is quite authoritatively wrong or >>misleading in some parts. Not many, just enough to drive a beginner >>mad. Experts in Database programming probably wouldn't have any >>problems. Also, the program can be very slow at times; especially when >>running in a multi-user environment off a server. And this leads me into: > >That's not all. Often the manual is right and the program's wrong. Like >when it crashes. Which it does frequently, especially in multi-user. >Also, you're wrong. Even experts can go nuts trying to piece together >the crazily implemented input loop. This is wrong. 4D is a solid program. I have built over 20 multi-user apps in 4D. Everyday over 100 people use these apps and they do not crash. A 4D app is completely reliable. It is possible to cause 4D to crash if you call an illegal command that changes the current record pointer while entering a record. It is a bug that 4D crashes, but once you remove the illegal command, everything is fine. This is fixed in the new version. Joe Liemandt liemandt@jessica.stanford.edu
alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) (04/13/89)
In article <2653@lindy.Stanford.EDU> liemandt@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Joe Liemandt) writes: >In article <1505@ccnysci.UUCP> alexis@ccnysci.UUCP (Alexis Rosen) writes: >> [I quote someone criticizing 4D and the manuals] >>That's not all. Often the manual is right and the program's wrong. Like >>when it crashes. Which it does frequently, especially in multi-user. >>Also, you're wrong. Even experts can go nuts trying to piece together >>the crazily implemented input loop. > > This is wrong. 4D is a solid program. I have built over 20 > multi-user apps in 4D. Everyday over 100 people use these apps > and they do not crash. First of all, let me say that I've seen Joe's postings in the past. Generally levelheaded, and I've got no quarrel with his knowledge of databases in general. Despite this, I disagree VERY STRONGLY with what he says here. > A 4D app is completely reliable. No, it's not! I don't know what you consider reliable, but my experience is that university people put up with crashes (albeit with poor grace) that would cause the typical business user to abandon the application (and maybe file suit in court against the developer). I consider 4D to be unreliable because it crashes for no reason whatsoever anywhere from once a week (barely tolerable) with a user-code-bug-free single- user application, to several times a day in some large multi-user applications. Even worse (and subject to objective verification), it is absolutely awash in a sea of bugs, large- small- and medium-sized. I've posted partial lists in the past, and in the dim and distant era gone by when I was an enthusiastic 4D Beta tester (yes, believe it or not :-) I sent then a twelve page typed bug report listing over 100 bugs, NONE of which have been resolved in almost two years. Fortunately, I've managed to forget most of that crap by now. If you think I sound bitter, you're right. I poured blood into that program, and now I see what it could have been like. I don't remeber the last time I saw FoxBase+/Mac crash. It must have been months and months ago. And that was on my developement machine. IN SIX MONTHS I HAVE NEVER SEEN FOXBASE CRASH ON A CLIENT'S MACHINE!!!!! And, neither have my clients. > It is possible to cause 4D to crash if you call an illegal > command that changes the current record pointer while entering > a record. It is a bug that 4D crashes, but once you > remove the illegal command, everything is fine. This is fixed in > the new version. > >Joe Liemandt >liemandt@jessica.stanford.edu If this is the only crash you know about, you're the luckiest man alive. You should give up on computers and just win lotteries for a living. Anyway, nothing is fixed in the new version because there is no new version. Wake me up when they actually ship 2.0. Or will it be V5.8, in 1993? Sorry. Sarcasm mode off. I actually expect them to ship soon (like I have for the past year) but so what? To a greater and greater extent, the world is passing them by. Foxbase probably outsells them by better than 4-1, and no surprise there... I've seen 2.0 and played with it quite a bit. It doesn't excite me. It would have made me drool in 1988. Even June 1988. Now it's too late. (How do you like. My Doug Clapp sentences. ?. :-) Anyway, I think we've covered this ground several times over. I offer the following deal: I won't write another word on this subject (4D vs. Fox) until Fox 2.0 ships shrinkwrapped. And Joe does the same for 4D (I guess he deserves some sort of last word, since I've said a lot on this and he's been pretty silent recently.) It would sure save on net bandwidth... --- Alexis Rosen alexis@ccnysci.{uucp,bitnet}
barajas@manta.NOSC.MIL (Albert A. Barajas) (08/24/89)
Hello, Has anyone out there used 4th Dimension 2.0? I'm wondering whether it's worth upgrading. I would appreciate any information. thanks, Albert Barajas barajas@manta.nosc.mil (619) 225-8401 x530
waltervj@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (walter jeffries) (08/29/89)
2.0? 2.0 is very much worth the upgrade. What had me peeved was that they were selling it at the Boston show and had not sent it to their registered/certified developers first like they had promised! I would have been much happier receiving it a month ago... But then I would also like a Cray and 1MMMMM or RAM running at .00001ns and a beach front by my mountains in the middle of Vermont. Guess you can't have everything... Still, 4D 2.0 is very much worth the price and get the new manuals! -Walter.