sgordon@hpindwa.HP.COM (Shaun Gordon) (08/16/89)
I am trying to put together an SE system for my parents and am looking for a low cost alternative to buying an Imagewriter II. I don't really care about quality of the print out, as they have access to a Laserwriter. What I want to know is what are my options if I want to be able to print out graphics, and what about if I just want text. Thanks in advance. -Shaun Gordon sgordon@hpindwa.hp.com
roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (08/18/89)
In <36400005@hpindwa.HP.COM> sgordon@hpindwa.HP.COM (Shaun Gordon) writes: > I am trying to put together an SE system for my parents and am looking for > a low cost alternative to buying an Imagewriter II. What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so (after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, and the ability to have an internal hard drive (convenient, but certainly not something which improves the machine substantially). With the new SEs, you also get a marginally better floppy drive (BFD). Get a Plus and use the money you save over the SE to buy a good printer, more memory, and/or a bigger/faster disk drive, any of which will substantially improve the system. Shaun, I'm not flaming you specifically, but I'm always amazed when people spec SEs because they want "something better than a Plus" but don't really have any idea what the differences between the two machines are. Considering that it probably costs Apple about the same to make a Plus and an SE, they must be really raking it in on the SE. No wonder they want to loose the Plus, but it's a product that is too successful for its own good. -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
vita@daredevil.crd.ge.com (Mark F. Vita) (08/19/89)
In article <3943@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: >In <36400005@hpindwa.HP.COM> sgordon@hpindwa.HP.COM (Shaun Gordon) writes: >> I am trying to put together an SE system for my parents and am looking for >> a low cost alternative to buying an Imagewriter II. > > What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so >(after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same >processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, and the >ability to have an internal hard drive (convenient, but certainly not >something which improves the machine substantially). With the new SEs, you >also get a marginally better floppy drive (BFD). Get a Plus and use the >money you save over the SE to buy a good printer, more memory, and/or a >bigger/faster disk drive, any of which will substantially improve the >system. There are several things which could justify the additional expense of an SE over a Plus: 1) About 20% faster overall processing speed, due to the redesign of the video circuitry in the SE. 2) Ability to run hard disks at 2:1 interleave, rather than 3:1 as required in the Plus, which has a significant impact on drive performance. 3) Heftier power supply. You can put all kinds of junk (hard disks, cards, etc.) in the box without having to worry about the power supply crapping out. 4) The Apple Desktop Bus, which supports Apple's new keyboards and mouse, which in my opinion are much improved over the Plus versions. Also, the vast majority of new input devices (trackballs, tablets, joysticks, etc.) are being designed for ADB first, and (maybe) the Plus interface second. 5) Similar comment as above for the SE's slot. Many of the new large displays and accelerator cards have interfaces for the SE and II, but not for the Plus. Designing a card for the SE's slot is so much easier than kludging up the Plus motherboard that many vendors are forgoing doing a Plus version, despite the huge installed base. I'm not saying that large displays and accelerators aren't out there for the Plus, but your options are likely to be much more limited in number, more expensive, and less reliable. 6) The SE gives you much more storage flexibility than the Plus (in fact, the SE's may be the most flexible of any Macintosh). You can have two internal floppy disks in addition to a third external floppy disk, as well as an internal and/or external hard disk. At home I have two internal floppys and an internal 45MB hard drive, which is a pretty nice setup; gives you a lot of storage capability without sacrificing any portability (as external drives do). And theoretically, I could attach an external floppy and an external SCSI hard disk, for a total of five (!) disks. 7) The SuperDrive(s) on the new SEs are nothing to sneer at. This gives you almost 3 MB of online storage on the most basic model. Also, the ability to read and write DOS and ProDos disks might come in very handy. 8) Perhaps most important of all, an SE allows you to have an Apple-approved upgrade path to their most recent technology via the SE/30 upgrade. This gets you the 68030, Color Quickdraw, stereo sound chip, SuperDrives and the guaranteed ability to take full advantage of System 7.0 (virtual memory and all). ---- Mark Vita vita@crd.ge.com General Electric CRD ..!uunet!crd.ge.com!vita Schenectady, NY
captkidd@athena.mit.edu (Ivan Cavero Belaunde) (08/19/89)
In article <3943@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so >(after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same >processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, Not necessarily. I'd say it's more likely for us to see 020+881+PMMU boards for the SE than for the plus (thus permitting faster operation and VM in the future). Granted, this is not necessarily worth the extra $800, but for some people it might be. > and the >ability to have an internal hard drive (convenient, but certainly not >something which improves the machine substantially). Also remember internal drives are generally cheaper than external drives. And the HD-less model comes with two-floppies, not one. > With the new SEs, you >also get a marginally better floppy drive (BFD). Which gives a strong message on the part of Apple that they intend the FDHD to be the standard in the future, and that they're planning to phase out 800K drives. The FDHD might not be important to you, but other people find it useful (and even necessary). I do believe, however, that Apple would encourage this much more by pricing the FDHD upgrade at a reasonable level. I think both machines have their niche, and it's a question of value-added and perception. If people -Ivan Internet: captkidd@athena.mit.edu
omh@brunix (Owen M. Hartnett) (08/19/89)
This is a little off of the point, but have you seen the new SE FDHD? The "FDHD" is printed under the SE in a kind of outlined font. The first time I saw it (my eyes are not too good - I program the Macintosh)The thought it said "FRED." I think it kind of fits. - The "SE Fred." -Owen Owen Hartnett Brown University Computer Science omh@cs.brown.edu.CSNET
bklaas@cmdfs2.intel.com (Brian Klaas~) (08/19/89)
In article <13627@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> captkidd@athena.mit.edu (Ivan Cavero Belaunde) writes: >In article <3943@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: >> What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so >>(after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same >>processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, There may be ways around this now, but I prefer the keyboard offered with the SE and above. The plus does not support the ADB devices.
mha@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Mark H. Anbinder) (08/21/89)
In article <146@cmdfs2.intel.com> bklaas@cmdfs2.intel.com (Brian Klaas~) writes: >In article <13627@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> captkidd@athena.mit.edu (Ivan Cavero Belaunde) writes: >>In article <3943@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: >>> What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so >>>(after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same >>>processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, > >There may be ways around this now, but I prefer the keyboard offered >with the SE and above. The plus does not support the ADB devices. I don't know where this subject line came from, but I won't argue... The SE has just been given the boost you're looking for. Apple has ceased production on the original SE and either has started or is about to start production of a new version of the SE, with the FDHD SuperDrive instead of the old 800K floppy drive. Now it's REALLY a different computer. -- Mark H. Anbinder ************************** mha@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu BAKA Industries ** (cornell!)biar!memory!mha 200 Pleasant Grove Rd. H: (607) 257-7587 ******** Ithaca, NY 14850 W: (607) 257-2070 ******* "It's not safe out here." Q
sklein@cdp.UUCP (08/21/89)
Two more reasons why an SE might be a better choice than a plus:
1) The Plus keyboard sucks.
2) The SE can be expanded to the SE/30 with a simple board swap
(and a drive swap for older SEs).
Face it, the Plus is the end of the line. There will never be an
Apple (tm) upgrade to the plus. So what are the real differences?
The SE has:
* An expansion slot
* Better keyboard options
* room for two internal floppies AND a hard disk
* some ROM routines are 10-15% faster on the SE
* a chance to upgrade to the newest compact Mac, the SE/30
Are these features worth an extra $800? Probably not, but Apple
just dropped the price of the SE by $300 so the difference is more
like $500. If you need any of the above features, or just want to
keep your options open, then the SE is the better choice.
-shabtai
(e-mail addresses/long sig follow)
UUCP: uunet!pyramid!cdp!sklein | BitNet: cdp!sklein%labrea@stanford
Internet: cdp!sklein@arisia.xerox.com | Phone: (301) 270-2250
"You can't always get what you wan't" -- Rolling Stones
"You can get it if you really want" -- Jimmy Cliffngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (09/02/89)
In article <3943@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > What I want to know is why anybody would buy an SE? For $800 or so >(after the $300 price drop) more than a Plus you get exactly the same >processor, an expansion slot that will probably never be used, and the >ability to have an internal hard drive (convenient, but certainly not >something which improves the machine substantially). With the new SEs, you >also get a marginally better floppy drive (BFD). Get a Plus and use the >money you save over the SE to buy a good printer, more memory, and/or a >bigger/faster disk drive, any of which will substantially improve the >system. >people spec SEs because they want "something better than a Plus" but don't >really have any idea what the differences between the two machines are. >Considering that it probably costs Apple about the same to make a Plus and >an SE, they must be really raking it in on the SE. No wonder they want to >loose the Plus, but it's a product that is too successful for its own good. What amazes me is your ignorance...Sure you sight the differences between the 2 machines, but you ignore the facts that these differences are significant. The Power supply. I know people who have gone thru 3-4 Plus power supplies at an average cost of $120-180. The SE power supply is much more robust and is far less prone to failure than the Plus Power Supply. The Direct bus slot. You state that this is rarely used, where you been? There are a number of accelerator cards that will significantly enhance the performance of the SE that install in minutes, easily and safely with high reliability versus the similiar units for the Plus that are hard to install and are prone to be somewhat unreliable because of the way they attach to the processor. These cards also seem to be cheaper for the SE. THere are also ethernet cards, Color cards, internal modems...This slot-contrary to your opinion is used A LOT! The SuperDrive. Again you say (BFD) obviously you do not care about reducing backups from perhaps 50-800K disks to perhaps only 30 HD disks, you do not need to read other disk formats. While this differences are minimal to you, this can be useful to quite a few others I'm sure. Recommending a Plus to me is not doing anyone a favor, the SE is also faster than the Plus, though not greatly, it is noticable. I think over the long run the SE is a far better investment than getting a Plus anyday.. -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM