nino@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Nino Mateos) (08/23/89)
There are clearly two different types of disc boot up failures being covered in these notes recently. The first is the failure of the drive to start spinning at all. This is fixed by "kickstarting" or putting the Mac or drive on its face, or some other abnormal position. This has been explained as bieng caused by the heads sticking to the surface of the media or a dead spot on the rotor of the drive motor. Hey, I can understand this! The second failure still has me puzzled. This is the failure of the Mac to recognize the drive after it has spun up. Turning the drive (power) on and off again will (eventually) bring it back up to where the Mac will recognize it. The only plausable explanation for this so far has been a bad EPROM on some of the older Macs. For those of us with more recent Macs, the EPROM explanation is not our answer. Somebody out there has got to know what is going on inside these drives. Those of us out of warranty would appreciate some ideas as to what the problem is. I, for one, am facing the day when the on-off power cycle will no longer bring it up. Does somebody have a software "kickstart"? Nino Mateos nino@dtc.hp.com
werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (08/25/89)
> This is the failure of the Mac to recognize the drive after it has spun up. > Turning the drive (power) on and off again will (eventually) bring it back > up to where the Mac will recognize it. > Does somebody have a software "kickstart"? in the past, I had used MacZAP's Recovery Tools which often allowed me to mount a drive when nothing else worked. Since a few weeks, I've been using SCSIprobe - and there are differences in release 1.1 and 2.01 which make it advisable to keep both in your System Folder ... as sometimes 1.1 succeeds in mounting where 2.01 does not (don't ask me) ... -- -----------> PREFERED RETURN-ADDRESS FOLLOWS <-------------- (ARPA) werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Internet: 128.83.144.1) (UUCP) ..!utastro!werner or ..!uunet!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!werner
hammen@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Robert J. Hammen) (08/25/89)
In article <870284@hpcilzb.HP.COM> nino@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Nino Mateos) writes: >There are clearly two different types of disc boot up failures being >covered in these notes recently. > >The first is the failure of the drive to start spinning at all. >This is fixed by "kickstarting" or putting the Mac or drive on its face, > or some other abnormal position. This has been explained as >bieng caused by the heads sticking to the surface of the media >or a dead spot on the rotor of the drive motor. Hey, I can understand this! > >The second failure still has me puzzled. This is the failure of >the Mac to recognize the drive after it has spun up. Turning the drive >(power) on and off again will (eventually) bring it back up to where the >Mac will recognize it. The only plausable explanation for this so far has >been a bad EPROM on some of the older Macs. For those of us with I don't necessarily believe that there are two seperate failures going on here. Most of the problem descriptions on the nets have sounded like case #1. I don't think there's any "ROM Problem" (at least not with the Mac) that causes the machine to not recognize the disk. Let's give some background information on this problem. Apple has been using essentially three vendors for its hard drives lately. It has been getting 40 MB Sony, Seagate, and Quantum drives, as well as 80 MB Quantum drives (I'm not sure who they're using for the 20's - MiniScribe?). Quantum has been around for a while (we've got a Covalent ShopSystem at work running on an old Altos with a 10 or 20 MB 5.25" full-height Quantum disk). Their Q-280 drives became popular (primarily Jasmine's Direct Drive 80 and the Apple 80 MB) in early '87. By fall of '87, demand for these drives was high, and there were some problems with "stiction", where the drive did not spin up (I don't remember the exact details anymore). The solution was to give the disk a good whack to unstick it (it worked!). Quantum solved those problems. Last year, they introduced the ProDrive series, very fast 3.5" drives that quickly replaced the older mechanism. So far, there haven't been too many complaints, except for the drives Apple has been shipping for the last six months (more on this in a minute). Seagate, meanwhile, has been having a lot of quality control problems (like the 3.5" 30MB mechanism - the plastic spacers on some drives spit out oil (from the manufacturing process?) onto the media over time, with the end result being bad blocks developing all over the place), and has had some "stiction" problems with 40 MB drives that Apple used, at least in SE/30, II, and IIx machines. This is the "recall" that has been widely publicized. The affected drive mechanisms have a serial number in the range of 00335507 through 01023016 (the drive serial number is near the 50-pin SCSI connector). Now we come to the seemingly endless complaints from people here on Usenet about Apple hard drives. Note that only Apple hard drives seem to be having problems (many third party vendors use the ProDrive mechanisms in their drives). Someone posted about this on Compu$erve, and I read a reply from someone who dissected his IIcx that Apple mounts those drives UPSIDE DOWN in the machine. I don't have a IIcx - can someone verify this? Howabout the SE/30? If you've had ANY problems with a recent Apple 40 or 80 MB drive, I'd appreciate it if you could send me E-mail. Please include the following info: Computer Type: When purchased: Size of Drive: Manufacturer of Drive: Serial # of Drive: How long before you had problems: General Description of Problem: I'll pass this info on to some of the folks at MacWEEK, and maybe we'll see some action, since it's obvious that Apple is ignoring the problem. (BTW, the hard disk in my Lino's RIP is a Quantum ProDrive 80, sideways-mount, and it gets beat on 18+ hours a day and has had ZERO problems...) /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / Robert Hammen | Service Bureau Manager and Macintosh Consultant / / Bulfin Printers | 1887 N. Water | Milwaukee WI 53202 | (414) 271-1887 / / hammen@csd4.csd.uwm.edu | uunet!uwmcsd4!hammen | Delphi: HAMMEN / / CI$: 70701,2104 | GEnie: R.Hammen | MacNet: HAMMEN | BIX: rhammen / ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
spector@brillig.umd.edu (Lee Spector) (08/28/89)
In article <3989@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> hammen@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Robert J. Hammen) writes: [stuff deleted] > >If you've had ANY problems with a recent Apple 40 or 80 MB drive, I'd >appreciate it if you could send me E-mail. Please include the following info: >[stuff deleted] > >I'll pass this info on to some of the folks at MacWEEK, and maybe we'll see >some action, since it's obvious that Apple is ignoring the problem. [My email seems not to have gotten through, and besides, I think people should really know about this.] My Mac IIcx is less than 2 months old and I've already had TWO Apple-supplied 80 Meg hard disks go bad on me. Details follow: FIRST DRIVE: Computer Type: Mac IIcx (w/4 Meg RAM) When purchased: 7/6/89 Size of Drive: 80 Meg. Manufacturer of Drive: Quantum (ProDrive 80) Serial # of Drive: I don't know which is the serial number - the drive had 3 different stickers with the following numbers: 80905240845, 0058, 980-80-9402 How long before you had problems: 3 weeks General Description of Problem: Failure to recognize disk at startup - just got flashing "?" icon. Booting from floppy showed no hard-disk icon on desktop. After several power-down / power-up cycles (disconnecting power cord in between) functionality returned. Sometimes this took > 10 cycles and over night. During failure the hard disk's light would flash periodically. After functionality had returned the "Apple HD SC Setup" program's "test" function showed no problems with the hard disk. SECOND DRIVE: Computer Type: Mac IIcx (w/4 Meg RAM) When purchased: Drive replaced 8/9/89 (computer purchased 7/6/89) Size of Drive: 80 Meg. Manufacturer of Drive: Quantum (ProDrive 80) Serial # of Drive: I don't know which is the serial number - the drive had 3 different stickers with the following numbers: 80907120322, 0032, 980-80-9401 How long before you had problems: 2 weeks General Description of Problem: Same as above, except this time the drive's light also died. --- As I mentioned in a previous post, my repair person said to try reviving the drive by booting with command and option depressed. I've been told that this rebuilds the desktop, but nobody seems to have any idea why that should help in this case. Maybe it doesn't. Nonetheless, I tried it once (on my second drive) and the thing DID boot... I would not have been too upset about a single disk failure, but having 2 disks develop problems within the first 2 months of the life of a (lightly used) machine is really disturbing. I might even be able to get used to the idea of having to go in for monthly drive replacements, but now my dealer says that the drives are back-ordered, and that I'll just have to keep using my current flaky drive at least until next week. Having 2 successive failures (along with reports from others) has convinced me that something is really wrong - there is a real problem with these drives, or with the way they are mounted, or with the ROMs, or with something. Let's hope that the problem is fixed as soon as possibe, and let's keep each other informed. Thanks, -Lee (spector@brillig.umd.edu)
omh@brunix (Owen M. Hartnett) (08/29/89)
I have had *two* 80M Apple (Quantum) drives go south - both in IIcx's bought through Apple Partners program. I have AppleCare contracts now on both. I moderate the Boston Computer Society's MacTechGrp and asked if anyone else had a similar problem. There was only *one* other IIcx owner in the crowd and his was going south, also. How to know if you're disk is about to go south: Usually it starts just as a failure to boot. Ultimately, it degrades such that the drive goes south during operation, occasionally causing a bad write, or at least an error correctable via Disk First Aid. To my rather untrained ear, it doesn't appear to me that the drive stops spinning; its more like the head doesn't search properly. Upon failure during use, the drive makes a scratching noise similar to it's usual head seek noise, only louder and more dramatic. The drive will then fail to boot up for awhile. random resets using the programmer's switch will invariably bring it back, although I have retried for about 45 minutes continuously at a stretch. Random voodoo you can try: Opening your mac, removing the drive, swinging it, replacing the drive. This works quite often, usually the swing need be no more than a movement of the drive through about 135 degrees. Violent force is usually no more effective then gentle movement and is not recommended. Needless to say, at the first sign, get the backup disks ready, because it's going to be a rough night. -Owen Owen Hartnett Brown University Computer Science omh@cs.brown.edu.CSNET
danking@castor.usc.edu (Dan King) (08/29/89)
In article <13768@brunix.UUCP> omh@zaphod.UUCP (Owen M. Hartnett) writes: >I have had *two* 80M Apple (Quantum) drives go south - both in IIcx's >bought through Apple Partners program. I have AppleCare contracts now on >both. I moderate the Boston Computer Society's MacTechGrp and asked if >anyone else had a similar problem. There was only *one* other IIcx owner >in the crowd and his was going south, also. (description of symptoms deleted) >Owen Hartnett The Quantum 80 in my SE 30 recently died 12 days out of warranty. Does Apple have any plans for replacing these drives? If they don't, does Quantum have any warranty of their own that is, perhaps, a bit longer than 90 days? Does anyone know anything that can be done with a dead drive? Dan King
werner@utastro.UUCP (Werner Uhrig) (08/29/89)
> The Quantum 80 in my SE 30 recently died 12 days out of warranty.
Does Apple have any plans for replacing these drives? If they don't,
does Quantum have any warranty of their own that is, perhaps, a bit
longer than 90 days?
I have not heard that Apple has decided to take any action,
but when I bought a Quantum-80 recently, it came with a
2-year warranty. However, I doubt that this will help you
any as you have to deal with Apple and unless they decide
to extend the coverage on the drives, you/we are out of luck ......
--
-----------> PREFERED RETURN-ADDRESS FOLLOWS <--------------
(ARPA) werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Internet: 128.83.144.1)
(UUCP) ..!utastro!werner or ..!uunet!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!wernerbremer@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (Ron Bremer) (08/29/89)
In article <4882@merlin.usc.edu> danking@castor.usc.edu (Dan King) writes: > >The Quantum 80 in my SE 30 recently died 12 days out of warranty. >Does Apple have any plans for replacing these drives? If they don't, >does Quantum have any warranty of their own that is, perhaps, a bit >longer than 90 days? > I recently purchased a La Cie Cirrus 42 drive which uses a Quantum P40S drive. La Cie said that Quantum just raised their warranty to them to five years and they are passing the warranty on to their customers. Their previous warranty was two years. I do not know if the warranty applies to Quantum's 80 meg drives but I would be surprised if it didn't. Apple has an atrocious warranty on their drives compared to the rest of the industry. Maybe if enough of their customers complain they will change. Apple used to listen to their customers, didn't they? Or is that just folk lore? *These facts are only my opinions. -- Ron Bremer bremer@tekigm2.MEN.TEK.COM (206) 253-6052 Measurement Systems Division Vancouver, WA
mikey@decwrl.dec.com (Mike Yang) (08/29/89)
In article <4882@merlin.usc.edu> danking@castor.usc.edu (Dan King) writes: >The Quantum 80 in my SE 30 recently died 12 days out of warranty. >Does Apple have any plans for replacing these drives? If they don't, >does Quantum have any warranty of their own that is, perhaps, a bit >longer than 90 days? Maybe it's all a ploy by American Express to convince people to use their AMEX cards to buy Apple computers and double the warranty... :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Yang Western Software Laboratory Digital Equipment Corporation mikey@wsl.dec.com decwrl!mikey (415) 853-6677
ching@pepsi.amd.com (Mike Ching) (08/29/89)
I bought a used 5-1/4" Quantum 80Meg drive and experienced similar problems to the ones being discussed (disk not recognized, etc.). Awful noises from the drive while seeking indicated a problem with the head carriage and I found that tilting the drive would cure the problem. If I had a warranty, I'd get it fixed but the drive seems to be OK if operated on its side so that's how I've been using it for the last 4 months. If you've got a drive that spins but isn't recognized, it might help to change its orientation. mike ching
xerox@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (James Osborne) (08/30/89)
Sayyy.... If Quanum drives are used in the macs, and the drives have a 2 (or 5 or whatever) year warranty... Can't Apple then charge and end user for a repair that is out of the whimpy 90-day Apple warranty, then turn around and send the drive back to Quantum for free repair? Just wondering... James.Osborne@Mac.Dartmouth.edu
dryzek@tcom.stc.co.uk (Peter Dryzek) (08/31/89)
In article <15310@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> xerox@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (James Osborne) writes: > > Sayyy.... If Quanum drives are used in the macs, and the drives >have a 2 (or 5 or whatever) year warranty... Can't Apple then charge and >end user for a repair that is out of the whimpy 90-day Apple warranty, then >turn around and send the drive back to Quantum for free repair? > > >Just wondering... > He's absolutely right. Up until recently I worked for a major disk drive manufacturer. Computer manufacturers have been pushing up their warranty periods from the drive manufacturer for quite some time now. A year is universal, two years is common and some drive manufacturers are offering up to five years warranty. I can't think of many computer manufacturers who pass the benefit on. Peter Dryzek
paulm@lotus.UUCP (Paul Morganthall) (09/01/89)
My Quantum 80M drive also had troubles starting up about two weeks after I got it (as part of my Mac IIx/4M/80M). I kept using it for another month, and sometimes it would die during a session -- same scratchy seek noises as others have reported. I called the dealer (Businessland), and was told that it is a common problem -- they'd replace the disk. They did so yesterday, and things seem ok so far. Sad. -- My opinions and Mac are my own. -- paulm@lotus.com -- ...!uunet!lotus!paulm
aj1826@trotter.usma.edu (DiGangi Joe CPT) (09/01/89)
In article <13768@brunix.UUCP>, omh@brunix (Owen M. Hartnett) writes: > I have had *two* 80M Apple (Quantum) drives go south - both in IIcx's > bought through Apple Partners program. I have AppleCare contracts now on > both. I moderate the Boston Computer Society's MacTechGrp and asked if > anyone else had a similar problem. There was only *one* other IIcx owner > in the crowd and his was going south, also. > > > -Owen > > Owen Hartnett > Brown University Computer Science > Owen, I posted a message about my IIcx Quantum 80 several weeks ago, which exhibited the same problems documented (endlessly, now) in other messages. I also posted the same problem to AppleLink (Developers Talk to Each Other) and saw about 10 responses from others with the same problems. Now, if you think about it, both this net and AppleLink are "fairly restricted" in the sense that a _lot_ of users don't have access to them. How many of these people are experiencing the same problems with their IIcx's and SE/30's, and we just don't know about them? It is my opinion that Apple has seen these postings, and is a) researching the problem and will get back to us later (hopefully), or b) just chosen to ignore us and hope the problem goes away. I hope it is a), but I'd like to hear from them anyway. I heard a rumor a few days ago that Apple was allowing trade-in of the Quantum 80's in a similar manner to the recall for 40 meg drives earlier. However, I have seen no substantiation of that rumor on any of the nets. I haven't followed up much, since my problem went away when I decided to leave my computer on _most_ of the time. (The problem had first occurred when I went away for a week and turned it off.) I'm not satisfied that it won't happen again, though. Let's keep up the pressure. TALK TO US APPLE!! --Joe
danking@castor.usc.edu (Dan King) (09/02/89)
In article <1397@trotter.usma.edu> aj1826@trotter.usma.edu (DiGangi Joe CPT) writes: >It is my opinion that Apple has seen these postings, and is a) researching >the problem and will get back to us later (hopefully), or b) just chosen >to ignore us and hope the problem goes away. I hope it is a), but I'd like >to hear from them anyway. The Quantum 80 in my SE/30 died twelve days out of warranty. Let's hope it's (A)! The drives are too expensive to replace every four months. >I heard a rumor a few days ago that Apple was allowing trade-in of the >Quantum 80's in a similar manner to the recall for 40 meg drives earlier. >However, I have seen no substantiation of that rumor on any of the nets. I called Apple Customer Support to complain yesterday (09-01-89) and (at that time), they were not replacing the drives, they were not granting warranty extensions, and they had no plans. The representative took my name phone number, but couldn't promise anything. I then asked him if Apple would reimburse me if I fixed my own drive and they later offered a replacement. He wouldn't say anything about that other than that Apple has done that with some of the 40 meg versions. >Let's keep up the pressure. TALK TO US APPLE!! Come one, Apple! I keep hearing that Apple has higher prices than the competition (ahem) because they fund more R&D as well as better CUSTOMER SUPPORT. Customer support doesn't mean shipping a product that is going to die just after the warranty expires. I'm still paying off the damn computer, I don't need to add the burden of a new 80 meg HD to it. I also can't wait while some committee makes up its mind: my semester is starting and I need my system. TALK TO US APPLE!! dank
ben@tasis.utas.oz.au@munnari.oz (Ben Lian) (09/02/89)
In article <19291@mimsy.UUCP> spector@brillig.umd.edu.UUCP (Lee Spector) writes: >General Description of Problem: Failure to recognize disk at startup - just > got flashing "?" icon. Booting from floppy showed no > hard-disk icon on desktop. After several power-down / > power-up cycles (disconnecting power cord in between) > functionality returned. Sometimes this took > 10 cycles > and over night. During failure the hard disk's light would > flash periodically. After functionality had returned > the "Apple HD SC Setup" program's "test" function showed > no problems with the hard disk. This sounds exactly like the problem I used to have with my Rodime 140+ external HD, though the causes and the solutions may not be the same. Half of my problems had to do with Mac Plus 128K ROMs that would not talk to SCSI devices correctly at boot-time. The other half is due to the HD itself. The following description assumes that your SCSI hardware is functioning properly. When I turn on my HD 'cold', it will very often not spin the platters up to speed, leaving the heads unlocked (as should be the case). I then have to turn the drive off, let the platters come to a halt, and then power-up again. It usually takes quite a few of these cycles to finally get the drive going. The number of attempts (for me) varies between 1 and 15!! However, once the drive is nice and warm, I can turn it off, pack it away and take it home, and then have it power-up with no difficulty at all. Time after time. Note that the operative word is 'warm'. Hence, I never turn the drive off overnight unecessarily. That awful word 'stiction' comes to mind. This _may_ be a normal condition with HDs, because it appears to happen with most any make of HD assembly. -- bl