alms@cambridge.apple.com (Andrew L. M. Shalit) (09/23/89)
I just found out that the default configuration of the HP LaserJet IIP (512K ram) is only enough to print 1/2 page of graphics at 300 dpi. I guess I already knew that. What I didn't know is that this *might* mean that I can't print a full page of 300 dpi text without first getting memory upgrade. The memory upgrade is not cheap. ($500 list, ~$370 discounted, for a meg). I've gotten conflicting reports about this. I talked to a store, and they said "if you have a mac, you'll want the extra memory". Then I talked to the makers of MacPrint (the Mac driver for the IIP) and they said "512K should be plenty". However, the MacPrint guy didn't seem to be very familiar with the IIP; his experience was based on other HP printers. In any case, my IIP is already in the mail. I can't back out now. Anyone else thinking of buying one of these beasts may want to hold off. I'll report back as soon as I get my machine and try it out. -andrew
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (09/26/89)
512K in a LaserJet IIP is not enough to do a page of 300 DPI graphics. 1024K is barely enough. 300DPI requires 300 bytes per 8 inch line. Since a 11 inch page has 3000 lines at 300 DPI the resulting memory requirements are 990000 bytes. Now of the 512K available in the LaserJet IIP some is used up for variables, buffers, etc. Also a full page of graphics really seldom means 11 inches. So you need at least 512K more but to be safe 1024K more memory in your LaserJet IIP to print a page of 300 DPI graphics. When comparing LaserJet IIP to the DeskWriter (for Mac) and DeskJet+ (for, dare I say it, MS-DOS) you must remember the Desk_____ printers need no extra memory or options to do a page of 300 DPI graphics. Also remember when printing a page of 300 DPI graphics the HP laser printers are not necessarily faster than the DeskWriter and DeskJet+ printers. The laser printer speed edge really comes out when printing text only or PostScript -- not bitmaps. Also note that the base LaserJet IIP has only a 50 sheet input tray -- a 200 sheet tray is a $200 option. The Desk___ printers have a 100 sheet tray but have no optional larger tray. The PostScript cartridge for the IIP has been anounced at a price of $995 and requires 2.5 to 4.5 megabytes of total memory in the IIP (in other words, 2 to 4 megabytes of optional memory). Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) (09/26/89)
In article <ALMS.89Sep22152557@brazil.cambridge.apple.com> alms@cambridge.apple.com (Andrew L. M. Shalit) writes: > I just found out that the default configuration of the HP LaserJet IIP > (512K ram) is only enough to print 1/2 page of graphics at 300 dpi. > I guess I already knew that. What I didn't know is that this *might* > mean that I can't print a full page of 300 dpi text without first > getting memory upgrade. The memory upgrade is not cheap. ($500 list, > ~$370 discounted, for a meg). Don't worry about the amount of memory the IIP contains. Our DeskJet has only 16K of memory and it prints out complete pages of graphics at 300 dpi using the MacPrint driver. The driver divides the QuickDraw image up into bands in your Macintosh's memory. It sends the bands to the printer one at a time, not all at once. With 512K of memory, it just means that the driver can dump that much into the printer before it has to wait for some of it to be printed before sending any more. ----------------------------------------------------- Michael Connick mec@mtfmi.ATT.COM 201-957-3057 AT&T Bell Labs MT 3F-113 (Dept. 79153)
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (09/26/89)
As quoted from <887@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> by mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick): +--------------- | In article <ALMS.89Sep22152557@brazil.cambridge.apple.com> alms@cambridge.apple.com (Andrew L. M. Shalit) writes: | > I just found out that the default configuration of the HP LaserJet IIP | > (512K ram) is only enough to print 1/2 page of graphics at 300 dpi. | | Don't worry about the amount of memory the IIP contains. Our DeskJet | has only 16K of memory and it prints out complete pages of graphics at | 300 dpi using the MacPrint driver. +--------------- Uh, Michael, may I remind you that laser printers, unlike ink-jet printers, are by nature *page* printers: they *must* print a complete page at a time. You can't "band" output without doing some kind of hackery like running the page through the printer multiple times... which is not only annoying, but will probably leave toner all over the important parts of the printer in short order, necessitating expensive repairs. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp, 161-7070 BALLBERY (MCI), ALLBERY (Delphi), B.ALLBERY (GEnie) Is that enough addresses for you? no? then: allbery@uunet.UU.NET (c.s.misc)
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) (09/26/89)
In article <1989Sep26.000014.24359@NCoast.ORG> allbery@ncoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: > Uh, Michael, may I remind you that laser printers, unlike ink-jet printers, > are by nature *page* printers: they *must* print a complete page at a time. > You can't "band" output without doing some kind of hackery like running the > page through the printer multiple times... which is not only annoying, but > will probably leave toner all over the important parts of the printer in short > order, necessitating expensive repairs. Uh, Brandon, may I remind YOU that the DeskJet and LaserJet printers use the same PCL commmand language and logically work much the same as far as the driver is concerned. In fact the MacPrint driver we use with our DeskJet also works with all the LaserJet models as well. The banding that I described is done with them as well. Of course the nonsense about running paper through multiple times is completely unnecessary with either the DeskJet or LaserJet! In addition, it also goes without saying that with most laser printers you do NOT have to compose an entire page in the printer's memory before you're able to print out anything. I don't even think this is necessary with a Postscript printer, although I may be wrong about that case. ----------------------------------------------------- Michael Connick mec@mtfmi.ATT.COM 201-957-3057 AT&T Bell Labs MT 3F-113 (Dept. 79153)
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (09/26/89)
In article <897@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) writes: > goes without saying that with most laser printers you do NOT have to > compose an entire page in the printer's memory before you're able to > print out anything. I don't even think this is necessary with a > Postscript printer, although I may be wrong about that case. I think the important point for a laser printer is once the paper starts going it can't be stopped. (That's what Brandon meant by being a page printer.) Once the paper starts, you have to feed the image to the printer on time, otherwise you would get gaps. One easy way to do this is to build the page image in memory; then you are assured that the image is available when needed. But you can also create the image in bands, provided the next band is available when needed. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Object Specialist Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1
parent@apple.com (Sean Parent) (09/27/89)
In article <897@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) writes: > In article <1989Sep26.000014.24359@NCoast.ORG> allbery@ncoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: >> Uh, Michael, may I remind you that laser printers, unlike ink-jet printers, >> are by nature *page* printers: they *must* print a complete page at a time. >> You can't "band" output without doing some kind of hackery like running the >> page through the printer multiple times... which is not only annoying, but >> will probably leave toner all over the important parts of the printer in short >> order, necessitating expensive repairs. > > Uh, Brandon, may I remind YOU that the DeskJet and LaserJet printers > use the same PCL commmand language and logically work much the same > as far as the driver is concerned. In fact the MacPrint driver we use > with our DeskJet also works with all the LaserJet models as well. The > banding that I described is done with them as well. Of course the > nonsense about running paper through multiple times is completely > unnecessary with either the DeskJet or LaserJet! In addition, it also > goes without saying that with most laser printers you do NOT have to > compose an entire page in the printer's memory before you're able to > print out anything. I don't even think this is necessary with a > Postscript printer, although I may be wrong about that case. Uh, Michael, I'm afraid that Brandon is right unless you are using the built in fonts in the printer and are sending text only the 1 meg is required to garentee that the page will print. However, if your driver does a lot of white space compression (that is it tabs over white space) then 512K will cover alot of documents even with graphics. The Grappler drivers do this but I would still recommend 1 meg if you plan on not getting stuck on some documents. Laser printers (postscript included) must drive the laser at a very high rate of speed and the page cannot stop once it has started through the engine. The HP LaserJets in there standard configuration can not even come close to recieving information at this rate and the Mac certinly cannot generate it on the fly at that speed. Products like the General Computer Personal Laser Printer image the entire page (not in bands) on the Mac and disable interupts while they blast the information across the SCSI. PostScript printers have an even larger overhead to run the language. Sean Parent "Quality unattainable in a reasonable amount of time."
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (09/27/89)
> Don't worry about the amount of memory the IIP contains. Our DeskJet > has only 16K of memory and it prints out complete pages of graphics at > 300 dpi using the MacPrint driver. > > The driver divides the QuickDraw image up into bands in your > Macintosh's memory. It sends the bands to the printer one at a time, > not all at once. With 512K of memory, it just means that the driver > can dump that much into the printer before it has to wait for some of > it to be printed before sending any more. Not true. The DeskJet does print graphics as it comes in so it does not need extra RAM to do a page of graphics. However all LaserJet printers (and most all laser printers in general) MUST store up an entire page of 300DPI graphics before it can start printing. This is due to the fact that the DeskJet/DeskWriter can assume graphics is coming in sequentially down the page but laser printers allow for random cursor positioning between graphics sequences and do not assume sequential graphics. You must have at least 1 Meg in a LaserJet IIP before printing a page of 300 DPI graphics. You need no extra RAM or options to print a page of 300 DPI graphics on a DeskJet or DeskWriter. People must be aware of this fact before doing a real comparison between the LaserJet and DeskJet family printers. Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM
rickk@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Rick Klaus) (09/27/89)
>Don't worry about the amount of memory the IIP contains. Our DeskJet >has only 16K of memory and it prints out complete pages of graphics at >300 dpi using the MacPrint driver. > >The driver divides the QuickDraw image up into bands in your >Macintosh's memory. It sends the bands to the printer one at a time, >not all at once. With 512K of memory, it just means that the driver >can dump that much into the printer before it has to wait for some of >it to be printed before sending any more. > Wouldn't it be great if this were true?!! The reason that DeskJet, DeskJet+ and DeskWriter can operate with small amounts of RAM is that we do not have to print an entire page at once. We only have to have enough memory for one pass of the printhead... about 16K!! With laser printers, once you start the engine rolling, you have to feed it real-time until the entire page is printed, No pausing allowed!! This is why the II-P will need a 1MB memory upgrade to work on the Mac. Another misconception that is somewhat related to this discussion, is the premise that "If it's a laser, it must be faster." This is not the case, as we raced a DeskWriter and LaserJet with the same driver and the DeskWriter was much faster than the LaserJet!! Rick Klaus rickk@hpvcfs1
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (09/27/89)
As quoted from <897@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> by mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick): +--------------- | In article <1989Sep26.000014.24359@NCoast.ORG> allbery@ncoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: | > Uh, Michael, may I remind you that laser printers, unlike ink-jet printers, | > are by nature *page* printers: they *must* print a complete page at a time. | > You can't "band" output without doing some kind of hackery like running the | | Uh, Brandon, may I remind YOU that the DeskJet and LaserJet printers | use the same PCL commmand language and logically work much the same | as far as the driver is concerned. In fact the MacPrint driver we use | with our DeskJet also works with all the LaserJet models as well. The | banding that I described is done with them as well. Of course the | nonsense about running paper through multiple times is completely | unnecessary with either the DeskJet or LaserJet! In addition, it also +--------------- What has that to do with it? Let me be a little more clear: the LaserJet won't print *anything* until it sees a control-L. Your driver can "band" all it wants; it won't have any effect. Unless you have seen a LaserJet feed a sheet an inch or so at a time? --I haven't, and I've seen a number of them in operation in a number of different environments. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp, 161-7070 BALLBERY (MCI), ALLBERY (Delphi), B.ALLBERY (GEnie) Is that enough addresses for you? no? then: allbery@uunet.UU.NET (c.s.misc)
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (09/27/89)
As quoted from <4372@internal.Apple.COM> by lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein): +--------------- | In article <897@cbnewsj.ATT.COM> mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) | writes: | > goes without saying that with most laser printers you do NOT have to | > compose an entire page in the printer's memory before you're able to | > print out anything. I don't even think this is necessary with a | > Postscript printer, although I may be wrong about that case. | | I think the important point for a laser printer is once the paper starts | going it can't be stopped. (That's what Brandon meant by being a page | printer.) Once the paper starts, you have to feed the image to the | printer on time, otherwise you would get gaps. | | One easy way to do this is to build the page image in memory; then you are | assured that the image is available when needed. But you can also create | the image in bands, provided the next band is available when needed. +--------------- How do you convince the LaserJet to start printing before the entire page is in memory (that is, without sending it a formfeed command)? I'm not needling; I can think of a few programs I've used on other systems which could benefit greatly if I could teach them this trick... and I've not seen anything in the LJ-II technical reference saying that this could be done, or how. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp, 161-7070 BALLBERY (MCI), ALLBERY (Delphi), B.ALLBERY (GEnie) Is that enough addresses for you? no? then: allbery@uunet.UU.NET (c.s.misc)
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) (09/27/89)
Well, what can I say, other than sometimes I'm an idiot! I was flat out wrong in my statement about laser printers. They obviously MUST have all of the page in internal memory before they can print, because once the "drum gets moving", it can't be stopped. Sorry to spread disinformation! ----------------------------------------------------- Michael Connick mec@mtfmi.ATT.COM 201-957-3057 AT&T Bell Labs MT 3F-113 (Dept. 79153)