alex@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Alex Pournelle) (10/05/89)
Hope this discussion interests people. The whole truesdel@ics.uci.edu (Scott Truesdell) writes: >alex@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Alex Pournelle) responded to the following >statement [which, to avoid an infinite recursion error, isn't repeated...] >by saying that there was actually a high likelyhood that the >3rd party drive would, in fact, NOT be a Quantum: >Sorry for the quick statement. I'll qualify it here. >1st, since this is for a IIcx (if I remember correctly), the original >querier is limited to 3.5" drives UNLESS he gets a CDC from MicroNet >who have fabricated a replacement molding for the drive bracket that >replaces the standard Apple bracket and allows for mounting 5.25" >mechanisms. For internal, dis be true. I tend toward external drives on Macs (PCs too, occasionally). I don't trust the cx power supply any more than I trust any Apple power supply--NOT! The Apple supplies are a constant source of terror and error, have been since the Apple II. Price pressure (even Apple feels it) means they cut corners, and ask Sony to do so on the supplies. This is an invisible headache cause which many people never notice. Now, most PC power supplies aren't any better--ask anyone with an IBM or Compaq original supply--unless you buy a PC-Cool [expensive but worth it--editor]. This has DEFINITELY started to bite PC users, with the $65 Taiwan supply the cause (no overvoltage protection, lousy filtering, worse regulation). But its day, in high-end 386/486 computers, is on the wane. Moral: Power is more a problem than you think. If your application is critical (and for the price of a high-end Mac, it is), think hard about external hard-drives. I'm not slamming Apple's supplies, except on general observations, but the ones I've had apart don't make me very reassured. The best indicator, alas, is time. >2nd, I presummed (probably wrong) that the querier wants performance >and reliablity. Obviously, or they would be buying a Mac Plus. I'm not slamming you or your opinion. You're right. >Alex, you see more of these things than I do, Which in no way diminishes your experience >but, >besides the "stiction" problems which appear well on the way to a cure, >the little Quantums are the fastest and most reliable 3.5" drives, yes? Hmmm. If you have to have 3-1/2" form-factor, I'd go with ST-157N. Speed is slightly lower, though (stepper drive). Remember, Quanta are voice-coil drives (fast) but not yet caching (not as fast as they will be). I am not encouraged by the Apple/Quantum "cure" pronouncement. A ROM change doesn't make up for the fact that *Quantum isn't plating the media well enough*. And then they don't lube them well enough, either. No amount of post-manufacturing shenanigans is going to cure stiction--they can't add torque to the motor. If they run it harder at start-up they risk burning the coils--almost invariably fatal. As with all Quanta, (& Seagates, and many other drives) the drives run hot, too. Their sealed construction doesn't dissipate well, either. I suspect history will show that Quantum got stuck with huge price pressures and compromised on the media fabrication. Priams don't stick; CDCs don't stick. Maxtors don't seem to (not big personal knowledge pool there). Seagates, MiniScribes, Plus HardCards and Quanta do. The first two are easy for us to rescue, the last two--not so easy. Call me prejudiced against Quanta; I've seen entirely more than my share come through the door. And their tech. support hasn't been very helpful, I'm afraid (love to change that!). Parts are essentially unavailable. >3rd, I probably should have worded that statement "...3rd party drive >you may CHOOSE or SELECT..." meaning, after he examined the selection >of drives out there, he would arrive at the same conclusion I have, >and buy Quantum drives exclusively in the 3.5" range. When the CDC >Swifts start shipping, I PRESUME they will give the Quantums a good >run for the money. Erm, didn't know CDC was STILL in the teething stage on those. Even Apple might use 'em. I might suggest Conners but my experience with the Compaq Conners has been--uninspiring. >>Micro-Net drives are my favorite, by far. They have the best tech. >>support and tech. people. And the CDC mechanisms don't break. >I agree wholeheartedly. All my AppleShare servers are using CDC Wrens >except for 4 SEs used to serve 4 15-Mac Plus Pascal programming >networks. These use Quantums. Also, all Mac IIs with drives other than >Apple-supplied (higher ed discount makes these hard to pass up) get CDC >mechanisms. I find it very easy to cost justify these drives to >University purchasers on the following grounds: Reliability means less >money in maintenance, reliability means less downtime, made in U.S.A./ >good for economy, and, as an aside, they offer the best performance. 'Sides, the Mitsubishis and Fujis of the world haven't got into SCSIs in a major way. Have to see your lab sometime. Sounds fun.... Alex
jnh@ecemwl.ncsu.edu (Joseph N. Hall) (10/05/89)
In article <1989Oct5.090136.5467@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us> alex@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Alex Pournelle) writes: > >I don't trust the cx power supply any more >than I trust any Apple power supply--NOT! The Apple supplies are a >constant source of terror and error, have been since the Apple II. Price >pressure (even Apple feels it) means they cut corners, and ask Sony to >do so on the supplies. ... ^^^^ Well, I doubt that Sony (or any Japanese manufacturer) would willingly "cut corners" on a product, or would ship one with a known defect. Certainly not Sony. But in any event, the last IIcx we bought had a GE supply in it. v v sssss|| joseph hall || 4116 Brewster Drive v v s s || jnh@ecemwl.ncsu.edu (Internet) || Raleigh, NC 27606 v sss || SP Software/CAD Tool Developer, Mac Hacker and Keyboardist -----------|| Disclaimer: NCSU may not share my views, but is welcome to.
alex@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Alex Pournelle) (10/06/89)
More on hard drives, hopefully still of general interest. I'm willing, eager even, to hear from other people (hint hint) on this subject. I would like very much to talk to more tech. engineers at hard-drive companies mentioned, too. I want to work *with* and not *against* to help their customers get their data back when it's not currently retrievable. 'Scuse the edits, but this discussion is reaching Mammoth proportions already; you want the original text, read it in the previous messages... truesdel@ics.uci.edu (Scott Truesdell) writes: >alex@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Alex Pournelle) writes: >> I tend toward external drives on Macs (PCs too, occasionally). >Well, for dozens of reasons, external drives make sense. Ease of >swap-out in case of repair, sparing the inadequat power supplies >of most microcomputers, et. al. {then on to the 'neatness' factor of having everything in one box: SE/30} Agreed absolutely. The Mac has it all over the PC for true dragability--size and weight too. But I get a mite worried about the power supplies with all that in there. If your 5 and 12 Volts don't vary (usual first sign of power supply error in "classic" [?!] Macs is the screen jitters) much (1/2%? 1%?) with all that plugged in--go for it. I would if I had the money! >> Apple supplies are a >>constant source of terror and error, have been since the Apple II. Price >>pressure (even Apple feels it) means they cut corners, and ask Sony to >>do so on the supplies. This is an invisible headache cause which many >>people never notice. >The sad part is it's not that expensive to build 'em a little better. >From the OEM's reference, it'd add $1 or $2 to build 'em robust, no? Utterly correct. The poster who said Sony Would Never Cut Corners Like That is--misguided. I have to differ. We're talking razor-thin price margins. If GE is building 'em--great for GE, but the same comments apply. Maybe I just don't like anything that small that doesn't say "Sigma" or "Lambda" on it. >>[ref to Apple's power supplies], but the ones I've had apart don't make me >>very reassured. The best indicator, alas, is time. > ^^^^ > ackkk!!! there's that word again! You caught me. Now I have to pay royalties. >Seriously, though, even power supplies from "quality" vendors are >subject to this pricing pressure. Case in point: One of our favorite >OEMs, MicroNet, uses minimum PS technology in the external units. The >only RMAs I've had with MicroNet have been PS related and it's >(unfortunately) a higher average than I would like. All you CMS users out there, beware: CMS was, for over 8 months, using a 35-watt power supply in their external 80meg (Seagate ST-277N) drives, which take about 75 Watts at startup. The result is predictable: KA-BLOOIE! drives. Fried beyond repair. They kept it pretty quiet, no recalls or anything. If you have one of 'em, see if it's got a Skynet supply board. If so, you should contact CMS. >>Hmmm. If you have to have 3-1/2" form-factor, I'd go with ST-157N. >Really? I tend to shy away from Seagates when given an alternative. >Knowing the nature of your work, I value your opinion and will >reevaluate my policy on these drives. (backpedal backpedal, sounds of coughing and shuffling) I have re- re-considered this. The Seagates are, despite my constant grotching about commodity drives, not bad. But they are not the equal of the price you pay for a high-end Mac. Until CDC's 3.25" SCSIs are ready, I don't know WHAT to recommend; the Seagates work the best (note caveat) of the ones I've tested. But I have NOT tested the Conner SCSIs, the new new Rodime SCSIs, the "next-wave" sub-3" drives from PrarieTek or Areal, etc. And my friends at the repair places have essentially no experience with 3.25" SCSIs; too new. The Seagates are NOT as good as the MiniScribe 3.25" SCSIs, but they make much larger ones. At that, the largest is the 157N, though rumours of a new line of 3.25" drives from Seagate will likely become true at ComDex (nope: no inside bits. Just market watching.) And M/S has some problems outside the scope of this exercise. So I'm stuck for a recommendation within my experience. So I mentioned Seagate. >>Erm, didn't know CDC was STILL in the teething stage on [The Swift >>3.25" SCSIs] >Charles McConnethy told me they have been working with Imprimis on >these teething problems. I forget the precise nature of the problem[s] >though I remember that they were slight and almost solved. >>I might suggest Conners but my experience with the Compaq Conners has >>been--uninspiring. >Is that with the special ultra-power-miser version of the Conners? "Compaq Conners" says what I'm talking about: it all: the 40-pin "AT" or "direct" interface drives that Compaq buys from Conner. They're essentially impossible to get diagnosed or fixed (this may change in a month--stay tuned). They have some brilliant engineers. I'm just not sure they let them make engineering decisions. Is anyone interested in this stuff, or should Scott and I take it to mail? Alex