gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/01/89)
Re: Apple's appeal to stop legislation against student-discount pricing.
Don't you hate one-dimensional slanted arguments?
A primary reasons for the discount program is that computers are like
cocaine -- once someone is hooked on a brand [e.g. macintosh], they
will continue to be a "user" (computer abuser?) for the rest of their
lives.
The student discount program, in the long run, is a big moneymaker for
Apple. In fact, selling gobs of computer systems to universities has
always been a financial win for computer manufacturers (DEC preceded
Apple in this respect).
I can see why Apple opposes this legislation.
In some respects, the student-discount program resembles the airline
frequent-flyer program, except you must take the kickback (unearned
perks) BEFORE you go out to industry, while you're still in college.
*sigh*
Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gilliesshiffman%basselope@Sun.COM (Hank Shiffman) (10/02/89)
In article <8400172@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >Re: Apple's appeal to stop legislation against student-discount pricing. > >Don't you hate one-dimensional slanted arguments? >I can see why Apple opposes this legislation. > >In some respects, the student-discount program resembles the airline >frequent-flyer program, except you must take the kickback (unearned >perks) BEFORE you go out to industry, while you're still in college. What's the matter? Do you have something against enlightened self- interest? Of course Apple gets a lot more out of this program than just goodwill. Digital gave huge discounts and made massive donations of equipment to universities for years just so there would be a large number of DEC-savvy programmers out in the real world. That doesn't make it a bad thing for the students just because it's good for Digital. Personally, I have to applaud Apple's university program. Anything which gets computers into the hands of students (*especially* those who aren't studying Computer Science) is worthwhile for the students. Why is it wrong if it's also worthwhile for the manufacturer? Besides, if I couldn't figure out what was in it for the corporate donor, *that's* when I start to worry. Much better to have the motive out front, where we can all see it. Disclaimer: I'm neither a student nor a university employee. I have no stake in this issue, beyond wanting Apple continued success so lots of exciting hardware and software continues to be attracted to the Mac. So there! -- Hank Shiffman (415) 336-4658 Marketing Technical Specialist Software Engineering Technologies ...!sun!shiffman Sun Microsystems, Inc. shiffman@Sun.com
c8s-an@franny.Berkeley.EDU (Alex Lau) (10/02/89)
In article <8400172@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >Re: Apple's appeal to stop legislation against student-discount pricing. > >Don't you hate one-dimensional slanted arguments? Do you have any arguments against Apple, besides being against Apple's profit-making motive? Remember who the legislation is being sponsored by: Apple dealers, who want to make even *more* money off of students. The big losers: students, and those affiliated with a university. >A primary reasons for the discount program is that computers are like >cocaine -- once someone is hooked on a brand [e.g. macintosh], they >will continue to be a "user" (computer abuser?) for the rest of their >lives. Does that mean that Apple should stop doing this? I happen to believe that people wouldn't get "hooked" on the Macintosh unless it was a superior computer for students to use. I happen to believe that Apple is doing the right thing, both for itself and for students. [stuff about how Apple makes big bux off of students] >I can see why Apple opposes this legislation. Is there any particular reason to support the legislation, though? >Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois --- Alex UUCP: {att,backbones}!ucbvax!franny!c8s-an INTERNET: c8s-an%franny.berkeley.edu@ucbvax.berkeley.edu FIDONET: Alex.Lau@bmug.fidonet.org (1:161/444)
ar4@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Piper Keairnes) (10/02/89)
I am one who will willingly fight very forcefully to prevent the
legislation being brought up. As for this:
=================
A primary reasons for the discount program is that computers are like
cocaine -- once someone is hooked on a brand [e.g. macintosh], they
will continue to be a "user" (computer abuser?) for the rest of their
lives.
=================
Bull****! Sure, any smart business tries to sway the public over to
its side of the computer wars. If one becomes "hooked" on a Macintosh... then
I'd consider that a good thing. If that person were to become "hooked" on
an IBM compatible... then so be it! One way or another, the user will favor
one of the available machines... and if he saves a little !@%^%%$ money in
the process, is that wrong? NO!
I'm quite glad that I saved a bundle of money by buying my Mac SE from
Computerland through Purdue University. What do you think may happen to
RETAIL prices when there is no LOW discount hardware available? I would
imagine that prices at your local computer store will go UP!
Opposition to this message will include:
those who are out to make money!
(greed! they want more money!)
Support for this message comes from:
those who wish to save money!
(people who want computers but can't afford what dealers want)
-- Piper Keairnes (FLAMES? Let 'em fly folks!)t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Tony Jacobs) (10/02/89)
DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts every computer manufacture and MANY others have discount programs for educational institutions Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu
carl@aoa.UUCP (Carl Witthoft) (10/03/89)
In article <8400172@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >Re: Apple's appeal to stop legislation against student-discount pricing. >Don't you hate one-dimensional slanted arguments? [more deleted] >Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois >1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801 >ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies Don, I think you are either a gross objectivist or else too young to remember the "good ol' days." It's called "Fair Trade," and laws were passed so that companies could NOT force retailers to sell at a fixed price. THere's nothing to stop Commodore or IBM ( :=) ) from selling student discounts. BTW, sporting goods, Ski resort lift tickets, musical instruments are a few items which come to mind that are often sold at discount to students/academic institutions. Why should computers be different? -- Alix' Dad ( Carl Witthoft @ Adaptive Optics Associates) {harvard,ima}!bbn!aoa!carl 54 CambridgePark Drive, Cambridge,MA 02140 617-864-0201 "disclaimer? I'm not a doctor, but I do have a Master's Degree in Science!"
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/04/89)
As far as I know, _all_ computers sold through the computer store here on campus are discounted for students: IBM, Apple, and Next. I think this proposed legislation is a total rip-off. And support for it is completely bogus. The whole point of reducing prices for students is due to the fact that students, as a whole, cannot afford the retail prices -- prices which are to a large extent intended for corporate buyers. Of course there's something in it for Apple (or IBM, or Next), but there's a lot in it for students as well. If not many students can afford a $2000 Mac and a $6500 Next, how many will be able to afford a $4000 Mac or a $10,000 Next? This country _needs_ to be at the forefront of technology, and computers play a big part in this. The more students who are familiar with computer technology -- whether at a programming or a user level --, the higher their technological knowledge, and the better off we are as a nation. If we make it more difficult for students to purchase computers, it will be the retailers who profit in the short run, and all of us who suffer in the long run. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = crsp_ra@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (10/04/89)
Aren't you all missing the point? It's totally irrelevant whether educational discounts are a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. What matters is who can afford the most congressmen. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) -- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 -- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. << Those who fail to learn from Unix are doomed to repeat it. >>
proctor@ingr.com (John Proctor) (10/05/89)
In article <1989Oct2.102041.245@hellgate.utah.edu>, t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Tony Jacobs) writes: > > DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts every computer > manufacture and MANY others have discount programs for educational > institutions > > Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu Before you all get incensed, remember there is no such thing as a free lunch! The rest of us poor working slobs are paying for your discounts. Corporate America is not, I repeat, NOT a charitable institution! Sooo all you educational types remember who is paying for your discounts! Flame on! John D. Proctor | Usenet: uunet!proctor@INGR.COM Intergraph Corp. | ARPAnet: uu.net.uunet@ingr!jdp!proctor | US Post: 1 Madison Industrial Park Usual Disclaimers Apply | Huntsville, AL 35807-4201 A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. "Self Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson
palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu (David Palmer) (10/06/89)
In article <6758@ingr.com> proctor@ingr.com (John Proctor) writes: >In article <1989Oct2.102041.245@hellgate.utah.edu>, t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu >(Tony Jacobs) writes: >> >> DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts every computer >> manufacture and MANY others have discount programs for educational >> institutions >> >> Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu > >Before you all get incensed, remember there is no such thing as a free >lunch! The rest of us poor working slobs are paying for your discounts. >Corporate America is not, I repeat, NOT a charitable institution! Sooo >all you educational types remember who is paying for your discounts! The rest of you poor working slobs are not, I repeat, NOT paying for our discounts. Corporate America is not, I repeat, NOT Robin Hood. Apple does not sell computers below what it costs to make them. Apple makes a profit on its sales to students, even at the student prices. The marginal cost of a Mac is very low, the justification for its high prices are the up-front costs of developing the machines and the software. This justification is just PR, as Apple would still be in the black (perhaps even more so) if the street price for a Mac were the same as the student price. The purpose of the legislation is to raise retail sales by a small amount by forbidding computer manufacturers from developing their own sales channels. If only 10% of the students who buy at student prices can afford street prices, then the retail chains sell slightly more computers than they did before, and just don't give a damn about the 90% of students who are left computerless. And so the blessings of government fall upon the heads of those who own it. David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer "Direct quotes don't have to be exact, or even accurate. Truth is as irrelevant to a newspaper as it is to a court of law" - Judge Alarcon, 9th circuit court of appeals (paraphrased)
t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Tony Jacobs) (10/07/89)
In article <6758@ingr.com> proctor@ingr.com (John Proctor) writes: >In article <1989Oct2.102041.245@hellgate.utah.edu>, t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu >(Tony Jacobs) writes: >> >> DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts every computer >> manufacture and MANY others have discount programs for educational >> institutions >> >> Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu > >Before you all get incensed, remember there is no such thing as a free >lunch! The rest of us poor working slobs are paying for your discounts. >Corporate America is not, I repeat, NOT a charitable institution! Sooo >all you educational types remember who is paying for your discounts! > >Flame on! > >John D. Proctor | Usenet: uunet!proctor@INGR.COM >Intergraph Corp. | ARPAnet: uu.net.uunet@ingr!jdp!proctor > | US Post: 1 Madison Industrial Park No one is getting incensed (yet), the CAPS were merely to emphasise that Apple is not the only manufacture involved here. Don't delude youself, companies are still making a profit off educational sales and are making a tax write off at the same time. They're not jacking up the sales price everywhere else to subsidize the educational market. I don't think the dealers price is much different from educational price, the big difference is that educational institutions aren't making a profit off the resale. (Well, maybe some are.) Besides that they are likely making special deals to BIG COMPANYS that are on the same order of discount. Computer companies maximize profits any way they can. My real opinion on the matter is that companies should sell direct and save us all the expense of a middle man AND then have SERVICE & SUPPORT centers where they get the help they need and only those who need support have to pay for it. You could replace 3 or 4 dealers with one good support center and get much better service. There's an idea for ALL YOU COMPUTER COMPANIES. I guess according to your philosophy I'm paying extra to support everyone who gets any kind of service from the dealers. Or do you just want to wine because someone else gets a better deal than you? And I suppose you paid 100% for your education too! Sheesh. Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu
Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (10/07/89)
John Proctor writes: > > DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts > > every computer manufacture and MANY others have discount > > programs for educational institutions > > > > Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * > > t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu > > Before you all get incensed, remember there is no such thing > as a free lunch! The rest of us poor working slobs are > paying for your discounts. Corporate America is not, I > repeat, NOT a charitable institution! Sooo all you > educational types remember who is paying for your discounts! Of course, John, as we all know, Corporate America is perfectly free to take its business elsewhere and not support said educational discounts. In fact, I would heartily suggest that any CEO who objects to paying a little extra because of these discounts, _should_ take his business elsewhere. That's because I like to see the free market work and survive. By the same token, I'd like to see these upset retailers strung up by the thumbs. That's because I don't like to see the free market corrupted by a few businessmen who think they can buy a few congressmen and hence a little legislation to guarantee their profits. If the retailers are upset, I tell them the same thing I tell Corporate America--don't do business with the "offending" corporation. Nobody is putting a gun to their heads and telling them to sell Apple computers. So maybe these retailers should go ahead and sell something else on which they can make what they think is their "fair" profit. --Adam-- -- Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200!Adam.Frix INET: Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG
orchard@tybalt.caltech.edu (John Orchard) (10/07/89)
In article <8400172@m.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >Re: Apple's appeal to stop legislation against student-discount pricing. > >Don't you hate one-dimensional slanted arguments? > >A primary reasons for the discount program is that computers are like >cocaine -- once someone is hooked on a brand [e.g. macintosh], they >will continue to be a "user" (computer abuser?) for the rest of their >lives. > >The student discount program, in the long run, is a big moneymaker for >Apple. In fact, selling gobs of computer systems to universities has >always been a financial win for computer manufacturers (DEC preceded >Apple in this respect). > >I can see why Apple opposes this legislation. >Don Gillies First off, I'd like to state that in no way is this intended to be a flame. This is intended in good will in the spirit of mature discussion. Obviously you are an opponent of educational sales. Are you, also, as your posting suggests, an opponent of Apple? If you are, why are you posting to comp.sys.mac? If you are not an opponent of Apple, your posting makes it sound as if you are. Well, regardless of your feelings about Apple, your feelings about educational discounts are clearly antagonistic. Since many other brands of computers are sold at educational discounts (NeXT, IBM, Compaq, GRiD at my school) your enmity probably applies to these manufacturers as well. But let's concentrate on Apple, since this is about Apple's efforts to oppose the legislation. You oppose educational discounts. Why? You are correct that Apple's motives are at least a large part financial, and that buying a computer is akin to a narcotic in that it often (but not exclusively) leads to the user sticking with that manufacturer later on. I fail to see what's wrong with that. It is a standard practice of business. It's the reasoning behind virtually every promotion ever conducted in business. Do you find fault with the practice of temporary discounting in general? If so, your targets should be every business in America, rather than merely Apple's educational discounting program. Perhaps that is not your reasoning for your dislike of the educational discount program. Perhaps you are rather a supporter of the computer dealer network, and see the educational sales cutting into the dealer sales. My responses are these: a) the educational sales should _benefit_ the dealers in the long run because those students who buy a Macintosh (or a PS/2, or whatever) at school will probably only be able to buy a single system, and will only be at school for a limited number of years. After a few years out of school, they will want a new machine, they are "hooked" on a particular machine because of the educational program, and where do they go to buy their new machine? Why the dealers, of course. Don't forget the "word of mouth" among the student's friends and family who want a computer but don't go to a college. They also must go to a dealer to buy. Also, remember that many students would never had purchased a system at all had they not had a discount at school. Thus those dealers might never have gotten business from those people. Reason b) If the dealers are so worried about the educational discounts cutting into their sales, perhaps they could make their prices more attractive. I'm sure that few dealers can handle the 40% discount of educational sales, but they can come close, and offer better service. The large chain dealers (who are most likely the powers behind this legislation) get up to 60% discounts from the manufacturers, go to full mark-up and then some, and, at least the dealers I've dealt with, offer little to no knowledge or assistance. I used to work for a computer peripherals company in Technical Support and I used to talk to 20-30 dealers' "technical representatives" a day who were not bright enough to read the manuals provided them. As you can probably tell, I have great disdain for those dealers out there that have former stereo salesmen who know nothing about computers trying to sell you a machine that's at 120% suggested retail. And I have nothing but respect for those few retailers out there who offer true service and real discounts. Perhaps you know all this and don't care. Perhaps you actually agree with me but posted in the spirit of a devil's advocate. Perhaps I changed your mind just a little bit. I don't know. But I am very concerned about the actions that a few short-sighted dealer-types have taken to restrict our rights to buy from whom we want. Yes, Apple's letter was very one-sided. But maybe there is cause for concern. I know I am going to look into this and try to find out both sides. John Orchard orchard@tybalt.caltech.edu
gabe@ctr.columbia.edu (Gabe Wiener) (10/07/89)
Would someone happen to have the text of the original letter that sparked the educational legislation thread? It seems to have scrolled off my system. If so, could you email it to me? Thanks -- Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ. "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings gabe@ctr.columbia.edu to be seriously considered as a means of gmw1@cunixd.cc.columbia.edu communication. The device is inherently of 72355.1226@compuserve.com no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
news@caen.engin.umich.edu (CAEN Netnews) (10/11/89)
In article <1989Oct6.130835.28348@hellgate.utah.edu> t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Tony Jacobs) writes: >Don't delude youself, companies are still making a profit off educational sales >and are making a tax write off at the same time. They're not jacking up the >sales price everywhere else to subsidize the educational market. I don't think >the dealers price is much different from educational price, the big difference >is that educational institutions aren't making a profit off the resale. (Well, >maybe some are.) > >Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu Personally, I am in favor of educational discounts for the sound business reasons that the computer companies do them. They want students to get used to using their computers in college when most people learn to use computers. If they feel comfortable using XYZ computers in college, when these students get into the work force they'll want to use the same computers. Discounting the computers is a way to get them into these universities. Also, if a major university decides to buy a new computer, it's a very good way to get that product established in the marketplace. Discounts are a very good way to get universities to buy these new computers. Companies also get cheap trouble-shooting operations in university computing centers. I know that these companies do make a profit on these machines. Otherwise, it would be dumping and they would be shut down by the Federal Trade Comission. It's just in the company's best interests to make less profit in the university market. Also, for your information, the University of Michigan does make a profit when it resells computers to its students. They say that it goes toward maintaining the public computers at computing sites. -Ace I am not connected with the university in any way except sending the tuition checks.
bobd@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) (10/11/89)
This whole issue is interesting in that indeed various corporations get discounts from the vendor (and for quantity). Will passage of such legislation be a step toward "price fixing" for the computer industry? I think the retailers are getting overly greedy with this one. Why is it fair to discount for industries and not for education? Many students (and faculty and staff) here would not own Macs were it not for the discounts which make them affordable (errr, *almost* affordable, it's always a bit of a stretch financially to purchase Apple equipment). Also, many of us staffers accept the lower pay of the University environment over private industry because of such side benefits (and a lower level of the "rat race" syndrome to varying degrees). I can't see any real benefit to it and I can't realistically see lower street prices as a result (remember the times Apple has raised prices because they have essentially a captive audience; You could argue that street prices might go up because volume would slip and the profit margin needs to be maintained). I tend to think that many of the folks supporting this legislation on the net might be suffering from "Mac discount Envy" :-) (he dawns his asbestos suit even as he posts....) -=- ========================================================================== Bob DeBula | Internet: bobd@hpuxa.ircc.ohio-state.edu The Ohio State University | Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's Davros sez: When my Daleks compute they use X-TER-MI-NALS!
mbrookov@udenva.cair.du.edu (Matthew B. Brookover) (10/17/89)
In article <6758@ingr.com> proctor@ingr.com (John Proctor) writes: >In article <1989Oct2.102041.245@hellgate.utah.edu>, t-jacobs@cs.utah.edu >(Tony Jacobs) writes: >> >> DON'T FORGET SOMETHING HERE, this legislation also impacts every computer >> manufacture and MANY others have discount programs for educational >> institutions >> >> Tony Jacobs * Center for Engineering Design * U of U * t-jacobs@ced.utah.edu > >Before you all get incensed, remember there is no such thing as a free >lunch! The rest of us poor working slobs are paying for your discounts. >Corporate America is not, I repeat, NOT a charitable institution! Sooo >all you educational types remember who is paying for your discounts! > >Flame on! OK! No, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Every student that buys a computer at a discount and then learns how to use it is one less person that will have to be trained to use a computer by Corporate America. Training is expensive, and if Corporate America can get the University's to train thier students to use a computer by offering discounts to the University's students, faculty, and staff then Corporate America will save that much time and money in the future. I include Faculty and Staff in the discounts because if they do not know what to do with a computer, they will not be able to teach it to the students. Matthew B. Brookover University of Denver mbrookov@nike.cair.du.edu ncar!dunike!mbrookov