steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) (10/12/89)
I just got a new price list from our campus Apple store. I noticed (with no special effort to emphasize it on the list) that faculty, staff, and departments (but not students) can buy a Mac II CPU for $1565, which is the same price as an SE with two 1.4 floppies. The price had been (and still is for students) $2550. Both lists say "While Supplies Last," which seems to answer my question above. I suppose it makes some sense since Apple now has the IIcx,i and IIx. But I bought a Mac II in the first place on the grounds that its six slots would enable it to be upgraded as the technology advanced. Apple's strategy of obsoleting it seems to be a betrayal of that reasonable, to my mind, expectation. Plainly, Apple will make more money the way they are going. But they will also generate still more ill will. What about those who buy the IIcx or i and find that later improvements are not made easily and cheaply available to them. On the other hand, a IIci CPU is advertised for $3792 and an upgrade to the IIci (not clear if it is available for a II) for $1758. That would seem to imply that I could buy a II and upgrade it to a IIi (if such a beast exists) for $3308. Sounds like a good deal. I'd be interested in any comments. Steve Goldfield
gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu (10/13/89)
In article <1989Oct12.163734.26748@agate.berkeley.edu>, steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes... [indications that Apple will stop selling Mac II] > >I suppose it makes some sense since Apple now has >the IIcx,i and IIx. But I bought a Mac II in the first >place on the grounds that its six slots would enable it >to be upgraded as the technology advanced. Apple's >strategy of obsoleting it seems to be a betrayal of >that reasonable, to my mind, expectation. > >Plainly, Apple will make more money the way they are >going. But they will also generate still more ill will. It seems at times that _whatever_ Apple does, it's accused of being a heartless money-hoarding capitalist giant. Sheesh! The Mac II is probably being phased out, not as part of some evil money-making scheme, but because the technology -- particularly the 68020 -- has been surpassed by Apple's 68030 models. That doesn't mean that a Mac II itself is obsolete: although you can't upgrade it to a IIci, in all likelihood Apple will be releasing a Mac II based screamer at some point; in fact it's been rumored that the (rumored) 33 Mhz model may be based on a II/IIx platform. I would doubt that Apple will ever completely abandon the 6-slot platform because: a) there are a lot of them out there, and b) because more than 3 slots are indeed necessary in many high-end applications. In any case, you should be able to upgrade your II with an '030 board, 50 Mhz versions of which are now available at huge prices, slower versions at lower prices. Just wait to make sure which '030 boards are compatible with System 7. Robert ============================================================================ = gft_robert@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * generic disclaimer: * "It's more fun to = = crsp_ra@gsbacd.uchicago.edu * all my opinions are * compute" = = * mine * -Kraftwerk = ============================================================================
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (10/13/89)
>>I suppose it makes some sense since Apple now has >>the IIcx,i and IIx. But I bought a Mac II in the first >>place on the grounds that its six slots would enable it >>to be upgraded as the technology advanced. Apple's >>strategy of obsoleting it seems to be a betrayal of >>that reasonable, to my mind, expectation. A Mac II can be upgraded to a IIx. The six slot format is definitely not dead, since the IIx is still a current product. It's also silly to speculate that the II is going to be obsolete -- Apple couldn't afford to do that. Not only are there lots and lots of them out there in the real world, it's been the machine of choice internal at Apple -- the thought of having to upgrade all the Mac II's we have here would put the wrath of accountants into anybody.... >It seems at times that _whatever_ Apple does, it's accused of being a heartless >money-hoarding capitalist giant. Sheesh! You get used to it. Sort of. >That doesn't mean that a Mac II itself is >obsolete: although you can't upgrade it to a IIci, You can, though, upgrade to a IIx. Or add a PMMU and run System 7.0 when avaialble without upgrading to a 68030. Or leave it alone and run System 7.0 when available without virtual memory. The Mac II has a lot of life left... In fact, when I finally upgraded my home machine I went with a Mac II, not a IIx. Why? Because I decided I would rather save some cash buying a slightly slower machine and use it for a two page display instead.... -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking] Anyone who thinks that the argument over {sci,rec}.fishies is about group names doesn't understand the system.
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/13/89)
In article <1989Oct12.163734.26748@agate.berkeley.edu> steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >I just got a new price list from our campus Apple >store. I noticed (with no special effort to emphasize >it on the list) that faculty, staff, and departments >(but not students) can buy a Mac II CPU for $1565, >which is the same price as an SE with two 1.4 floppies. >The price had been (and still is for students) $2550. >Both lists say "While Supplies Last," which seems to >answer my question above. >I suppose it makes some sense since Apple now has >the IIcx,i and IIx. But I bought a Mac II in the first >place on the grounds that its six slots would enable it >to be upgraded as the technology advanced. Apple's >strategy of obsoleting it seems to be a betrayal of >that reasonable, to my mind, expectation. >Plainly, Apple will make more money the way they are >going. But they will also generate still more ill will. >What about those who buy the IIcx or i and find that >later improvements are not made easily and cheaply >available to them. On the other hand, a IIci CPU is >advertised for $3792 and an upgrade to the IIci (not >clear if it is available for a II) for $1758. That >would seem to imply that I could buy a II and upgrade >it to a IIi (if such a beast exists) for $3308. Sounds >like a good deal. >I'd be interested in any comments. >Steve Goldfield It appears to me that you like many others have expections that are way to high for what you are getting. Technology will always continue to advance much faster than you or I would like. I would like to get a IIci (have a cx) but the price difference is to high. Eventually that will change as yet even more faster and higher priced perhaps CPU's come out. Where does the ill will come from? It comes from those (IMHO) that would prefer it seems for Apple to sit on its hands and fall behind technologically just so they can say they have the latest and greatest and keep that title for a while...ego perhaps? Apple is in the business to make money, always has been, always will be. Perhaps as yet even faster CPU's come out, the ones were drooling over now will be within affordable range, if we can overcome this mind set that we need to have the latest & Fastest CPU. I would like a Portable for those rare occasions that I travel a couple times a year, but for $6k+, not a chance, but in a couple years, perhaps I'll get a used one and have it for those travelling needs..by 91-92, I suspect that the Portable will be replaced and I'll be able to get one for less then 2K..what do you think? As far as your Mac II being obsolete, those slots will allow you to place 33mhz accelerators in them, there are other accelerator options, the PMMU will allow you to use VM in 7.0, so while the II itself is clearance priced, you can still make it a very usable machine for a few more years, all depends again on what you want...latest and greatest? You'll pay for the privelege! -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) (10/13/89)
In article <963@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes:
#>
#>It appears to me that you like many others have expections that are way to
#>high for what you are getting. Technology will always continue to advance
#>much faster than you or I would like. I would like to get a IIci (have a cx)
#>but the price difference is to high. Eventually that will change as yet
#>even more faster and higher priced perhaps CPU's come out.
Plainly you have misunderstood my expectation. I think it's fine
that technology is improving so fast even though the Kaypro II I
paid $700 for is now considered a piece of junk. What I want is
the availability of that technology on the Mac II platform. I
don't think it's unreasonable to expect--when you buy a machine
with six empty slots, with the selling point that the slots will
be used in part for technology improvements--that all the new
improvements would be made available through the slots at a
reasonable cost. My Mac is only 2 years old after all.
#>Where does the ill will come from? It comes from those (IMHO) that would
#>prefer it seems for Apple to sit on its hands and fall behind technologically
#>just so they can say they have the latest and greatest and keep that title
#>for a while...ego perhaps?
Again, you're turning things upside down. I don't object to the
new technology. I just want a reasonable upgrade path. Apparently
there isn't one to get my Mac II to the i-stage, only as far as
x. Apple apparently is choosing (somebody correct me if there are
more reasonable justifications for what they are doing) to
upgrade its technology in ways which force consumers to buy
entirely new machines to get the latest technology, rather than
to upgrade through plug-in boards in the slots that Apple sold
them. What I want is a platform which can be gradually improved
without scrapping it over a reasonable period of time, more than
2 years, certainly less than 10.
#>Apple is in the business to make money, always has been, always will be.
Yes, Apple is in the business of making money, but I and my
employer are not necessarily in the business of helping Apple
make money at our expense. As people have pointed out, Apple
can get away with a lot right now because it has no competition.
If and when that changes, Apple is setting itself up for
abandonment by a lot of dissatisfied users.
Steve Goldfieldbmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) (10/14/89)
In article <1989Oct13.165741.28675@agate.berkeley.edu> steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >I don't think it's unreasonable to expect--when you buy a machine >with six empty slots, with the selling point that the slots will >be used in part for technology improvements--that all the new >improvements would be made available through the slots at a >reasonable cost. My Mac is only 2 years old after all. > Slots *are* useful, if you want to add mondo memory for RAMdisks or A/UX operations, multiple serial-port controllers, DMA cards for SCSI devices, internal modems, multiple video controllers, data acquisition devices, etc. Not bad compared with what was available on Macs before... > >Apple apparently is choosing (somebody correct me if there are >more reasonable justifications for what they are doing) to >upgrade its technology in ways which force consumers to buy >entirely new machines to get the latest technology, rather than >to upgrade through plug-in boards in the slots that Apple sold >them. I can understand why you'd like to simply slip a card into a slot and have a newer, faster machine. However, there is one big problem with doing this on a Mac II: the Nubus is rated at 10mh. The Nubus spec (which Apple has only partial say about) is for 10mh. It is possible to bump that up with some fancy hardware modifications, or the way NeXT did using non-standard methods, but for all practical purposes, putting a 25mh 030 on a Nubus card would not be a very good solution. Of course, Apple could have opted for a higher-speed bus, but then that would have driven the cost of the machine through the stratosphere. The Nubus is fine if you want to add something like a coprocessor to the machine, however, if it doesn't demand too much speed. If you want a faster machine, one way to do it is to get something like a DayStar board, which these days will give you over 33mh. It is also entirely possible that a logic board switch will be available in the future to bump the old venerable II to beyond x stage. John Heckendorn /\ BMUG ARPA: bmug@garnet.berkeley.EDU A__A 1442A Walnut St., #62 BITNET: bmug@ucbgarne |()| Berkeley, CA 94709 Phone: (415) 549-2684 | |
rang@cs.wisc.edu (Anton Rang) (10/14/89)
In article <1989Oct13.223420.17194@agate.berkeley.edu> bmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) writes: >[...] for all practical >purposes, putting a 25mh 030 on a Nubus card would not be a very >good solution. How about putting a high-speed processor with a fairly large cache on a board? This is basically what Applied Engineering does with their accelerator boards on the Apple ][ series, and they get quite a lot of speedup.... Is Apple avoiding this to leave the third-party market open? +----------------------------------+------------------+ | Anton Rang (grad student) | rang@cs.wisc.edu | | University of Wisconsin--Madison | | +----------------------------------+------------------+
truesdel@ics.uci.edu (Scott Truesdell) (10/14/89)
steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >I just got a new price list from our campus Apple >store. I noticed (with no special effort to emphasize >it on the list) that faculty, staff, and departments >(but not students) can buy a Mac II CPU for $1565, >which is the same price as an SE with two 1.4 floppies. This is a good price and I advised many students (at my school) and faculty and staff to pick one up "while they lasted". Of course, once you pay for a video card, monitor, 4MB RAM, and 80MB HD you are up to $3300. still without color. Add $660 for that. So the savings diminishes once the entire sale adds up. Still a good deal. > Apple's strategy of obsoleting it seems to be a betrayal of [...] Oh no! Not one of THESE again... <groan> There's no mystery about the ceasing of manufacture of the Mac II. I can no longer go to a Ford dealer and buy an factory fresh 1987 Mustang. So what? Anyone who thinks the Mac II is obsolete doesn't know what they're talking about. If it's System 7.0 that has you worried Steve, perhaps you will be delighted to hear of the PMMU upgrade you can perform for between $200 and $450 depending on how good a shopper you are. That qualifies as one of the cheapest upgrades in computer history. For some reason, Apple, more than any other company, always gets accused of the most outrageous crimes everytime a new model is introduced. If their logo were flat black instead of rainbow colored, people would probably expect to get their heart cut out and stomped on. It's cheaper to build an Mac IIx than it is to build a Mac II. And more people want them. It is good business sense to quit production. Actually, production of Mac IIs stopped several months ago. They are meerly selling out the rest of the stock. Don't feel glum, Steve. There are literally dozens of ways to upgrade your system. And if it's of any comfort to you, we have labs with Mac IIs and IIxs sitting side by side and virtually none of the students show a preference over one model or the other. --scott -- Scott Truesdell
hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (10/15/89)
In article <1989Oct13.165741.28675@agate.berkeley.edu> steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >In article <963@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: >#> >#>It appears to me that you like many others have expections that are way to >#>high for what you are getting. Technology will always continue to advance >#>much faster than you or I would like. I would like to get a IIci (have a cx) >#>but the price difference is to high. Eventually that will change as yet >#>even more faster and higher priced perhaps CPU's come out. > >Plainly you have misunderstood my expectation. I think it's fine >that technology is improving so fast even though the Kaypro II I >paid $700 for is now considered a piece of junk. What I want is >the availability of that technology on the Mac II platform. I >don't think it's unreasonable to expect--when you buy a machine >with six empty slots, with the selling point that the slots will >be used in part for technology improvements--that all the new >improvements would be made available through the slots at a >reasonable cost. My Mac is only 2 years old after all. Wait a second... I have never seen an Apple ad that claimed that the slots were to be used for "Technology Improvements", certainly not upgrades from apple. I bought my II with the belief that the slots would be used for the things slots are usually used for, perippherals. So I expected to use them for monitors, maybe modems, maybe even a scsi cache card, but I never expected for apple to offer processor upgrades, and I challenge you to show me an ad implying they would. In fact I have never seen any apple ads that sais anything about being able to upgrade the technology of any of their machines in any manner. I am sorry you misunderstood the purpose of the slots, but I really dont think apple can be blamed. Josh (I am sorry for the slightly flamish tone of this note, but I just am really getting tired of the littany of objections raised every time apple introduces a new machine. As has been pointed out Apple is one of the few companies that offers any upgrade paths at all) ------------------------- Josh Hodas (hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu) 4223 Pine Street Philadelphia, PA 19104 (215) 222-7112 (home) (215) 898-5423 (school office)
pasek@ncrcce.StPaul.NCR.COM (Michael A. Pasek) (10/17/89)
In article <1989Oct13.223420.17194@agate.berkeley.edu> bmug@garnet.berkeley.edu (BMUG) writes: >In article <1989Oct13.165741.28675@agate.berkeley.edu> steve@violet.berkeley.edu (Steve Goldfield) writes: >>Apple apparently is choosing (somebody correct me if there are >>more reasonable justifications for what they are doing) to >>upgrade its technology in ways which force consumers to buy >>entirely new machines to get the latest technology, rather than >>to upgrade through plug-in boards in the slots that Apple sold >>them. >I can understand why you'd like to simply slip a card into a slot >and have a newer, faster machine. However, there is one big problem >with doing this on a Mac II: the Nubus is rated at 10mh. The Nubus >spec (which Apple has only partial say about) is for 10mh. It is >[some stuff deleted] >If you want a faster machine, one way to do it is to get something like >a DayStar board, which these days will give you over 33mh. It is also >entirely possible that a logic board switch will be available in the >future to bump the old venerable II to beyond x stage. What I would hope to see (and am surprised that it did not appear with the "x" series), is to have the NuBus "separate" from the processor, and even to have processor functional blocks "separate". By "separate", I mean "able to be replaced/upgraded without scrapping the whole thing and starting over". For example, if the "slots" part of a MacII were on a separate board, with some sort of connector between the two, Steve could upgrade his II to a IIx without having to pay for the NuBus connectors and glue logic that he's already got. Even things like new ROMs should be able to be installed without having to discard a whole logic board. Now, I'm sure Apple will argue (and I cannot dispute the fact) that it is cheaper for THEM to replace the whole board....the dealers don't have to know diddly, and the failed/upgraded/replaced components can be worked on by the "experts" at the manufacturer. Less spare parts to stock, etc., etc., etc. Of course, what they (and many others) often forget is that WE end up paying for the money they save....sigh.... In closing, I certainly thought like Steve did....when the MacII came out I figured "great...a machine that will never ( :-) ) be obsolete because you can always pop the latest & greatest in...." Oh, well. M. A. Pasek Switching Software Development NCR Comten, Inc. (612) 638-7668 CNG Development 2700 N. Snelling Ave. pasek@c10sd3.StPaul.NCR.COM Roseville, MN 55113 > >John Heckendorn > /\ >BMUG ARPA: bmug@garnet.berkeley.EDU A__A >1442A Walnut St., #62 BITNET: bmug@ucbgarne |()| >Berkeley, CA 94709 Phone: (415) 549-2684 | |
rampil@cca.ucsf.edu (Ira Rampil) (10/19/89)
<< complaints re: no upgrade path for Mac II, IIx series>> Hey, I really can't undertand all this moaning. The six slot platform is still the power platform. The small jump provided by the 25 Mhz IIci is just a transient glitch in the natural order (IMHO). 'Sides, if you want real (6 slot) power (and I can say this because this isn't "secret, inside" info), just wait until spring! I haven't seen Apple's business plans, but I can't think of any reason why they would not offer an upgrade to current II,IIx users, and frankly, they would be crazy not to. The only real question is, can you afford it? Ira Rampil Dept Anesthesia UCSF disclaimer: ( 14Hrs post quake - Shaken but not stirred! ;-) )