mha@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Mark H. Anbinder) (10/19/89)
The new Installer software that comes with System 6.0.4 disks is much prettier than the old version, and is certainly more intuitive for the average user. Unfortunately, Apple has taken away some of the functionality that existed in the old version, and, IMHO, the changes are not for the better. The worst change in my mind is the fact that the Installer will no longer simply add new system resources to whatever folder on disk is the Blessed folder (the current system folder). Instead, it seems to look for a folder called "System Folder," and if there isn't, it CREATES one, even if there's a blessed folder with a different name already present. This is very bad, for more than one reason. While a large percentage of the tech support problems we handle can be blamed on users putting multiple system folders on their drives by mistake, there ARE valid reasons for having more than one system folder on your disk and using something like The Blesser to switch between them. For the Installer to ignore users who are taking advantage of such capabilities is not appropriate. Also, keep in mind that Inside Macintosh tells programmers NOT to assume that names of files and folders will stay the same, because the Mac interface lets users customize their desktop. Another problem with the new Installer is that it installs all of the fonts and desk accessories that come with the system update, whether you want them or not. I can almost see the program installing any standard desk accessories that aren't in the pre-existing System, but it should NOT be installing the full set of Apple fonts and LaserWriter fonts. Many users don't need or use all of them, and should be able to install them as needed, like before. Also, many users at this point are using software like Suitcase II or MasterJuggler (or Font/DA Juggler) so that they can keep their fonts and DA's OUT of the System file and in separate, even multiple, suitcase files. The new Installer doesn't STOP users from doing that, but it certainly makes it a pain: you now have to take all of the excess fonts and DA's OUT of your System. Especially when people have placed extra font sizes of certain fonts in suitcases, which can't be accessed if there are any sizes of that font in the System, this is a real problem. My suggestion would be that the Installer install the REQUIRED fonts, plus newer versions, if available, of any fonts or DA's that are ALREADY PRESENT in the System being installed into. The other fonts and DA's should be left, as before, in suitcase files that can be used, or not, at the user's discretion. And, by all means, the program should find the Blessed folder, OR ask the user to specify a folder to install into (which would make things easier for users with a legitimate reason for multiple system folders). Comments? -- Mark H. Anbinder ************************** mha@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu BAKA Industries ** (cornell!)biar!memory!mha 200 Pleasant Grove Rd. H: (607) 257-7587 ******** Ithaca, NY 14850 W: (607) 257-2070 ******* "It's not safe out here." Q
pj@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Paul Jacoby) (10/20/89)
Actually, I hadn't thought of the angles you cover in your previous post (multiple system folders, fonts and etc). My first impression, after creating a startup flopppy on my single drive SE/30, was "Wow! Only 11 disk swaps. Much better than the 350+ that it took on a one drive SE under 6.0.3!" Kudos to Apple on that one. I'd be interested to hear the reasons behind the issues mentioned by Mark though: >> it installs all of the fonts and desk accessories that come with the system update, whether you want them or not it seems to look for a folder called "System Folder," and if there isn't, it CREATES one Also, keep in mind that Inside Macintosh tells programmers NOT to assume that names of files and folders will stay the same, because the Mac interface lets users customize their desktop. << .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. | UUCP: {rosevax, crash, orator}!orbit!pnet51!pj | Working with idiots keeps | | ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!pj@nosc.mil | my life interesting... | | INET: pj@pnet51.cts.com | | `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (10/20/89)
>Another problem with the new Installer is that it installs all of the >fonts and desk accessories that come with the system update, whether >you want them or not. I can almost see the program installing any >standard desk accessories that aren't in the pre-existing System, but >it should NOT be installing the full set of Apple fonts and LaserWriter >fonts. Many users don't need or use all of them, and should be able to >install them as needed, like before. Previous installers also did it -- at least, every time I used them I had to go back in and remove all the Times/Helvetica/etc stuff that I keep in suitcase files. This is a carry over, not a new feature. >Also, many users at this point are using software like Suitcase II or >MasterJuggler (or Font/DA Juggler) so that they can keep their fonts and >DA's OUT of the System file and in separate, even multiple, suitcase >files. The new Installer doesn't STOP users from doing that, but it >certainly makes it a pain: you now have to take all of the excess fonts >and DA's OUT of your System. As far as I can tell, the functionality of the new installer is the same as far as fonts/DA's are concerned. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking] Trust Mama Nature to remind us just how important things like sci.aquaria's name really is in the scheme of things.
bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) (10/26/89)
In article <9090@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> mha@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Mark H. Anbinder) writes: >The new Installer software that comes with System 6.0.4 disks is much >prettier than the old version, and is certainly more intuitive for >the average user. Unfortunately, Apple has taken away some of the >functionality that existed in the old version, and, IMHO, the changes >are not for the better. > >The worst change in my mind is the fact that the Installer will no >longer simply add new system resources to whatever folder on disk is >the Blessed folder (the current system folder). Instead, it seems to >look for a folder called "System Folder," and if there isn't, it >CREATES one, even if there's a blessed folder with a different name >already present. Acckk! This should not be happening. Right now I'm running out of a blessed folder called "System 6.0.4." I just tried, and successfully updated it using the new Installer. Everything seemed to work OK, no new folders were created. This sounds very weird. A lot of engineers here in Mac System Software have several versions of the system on their disks and use Blesser to switch between them. We have not had any problems updating the correct systems, and naming them whatever we want. I wrote the code for finding the blessed folder on the chosen target disk. My strategy is as follows: 1. Ask the file system if it knows about a blessed folder on the volume. 2. If the file system doesn't know about a blessed folder, see if a root level folder exists with the standard name for a blessed folder. In the U.S. this is "System Folder" but it is localized internationally as needed. Knowing this, there are 2 possible things which could be causing you problems. You could have a bad Installer script. The released 6.0.4 script has a creation and mod date of Sep 5, 1989, 12:00 PM and is 38395 bytes long. If your script is anything but the above, get the real copy. Another, more likely problem is that the folders you think are blessed, really aren't. The Finder is quite easily confused about which is the real current blessed folder on a volume. Just because a folder has the mac ICON on it doesn't really mean it's blessed. And vica versa. The only time that you can be 100% certain that the real blessed folder is being displayed correctly by the finder is immediatly after booting. If you're clean on both of these counts, I'd be interested into looking more into your problem. Let me know. As for your other comments about the Installer, yes I agree they are problems. But they aren't new problems. We are installing basically the same stuff that old Installer did. But the new Installer's design will let us do much better. System 7.0 is introducing a lot of changes in the System Folder, and the Installer will be able to be more intelligent about what it's doing. I think you'll like the results. Thanks for the feedback. Bruce -- =============================================================================== Bruce Jones bjones@apple.com Software Engineer AppleLink: JONES12 System Software Group 408 974-3454 Apple Computer, Inc 20525 Marianni Avenue MS 22BB Cupertino, CA 95014 ===============================================================================
phil@vaxphw.enet.dec.com (Phil Hunt) (10/26/89)
In article <35918@apple.Apple.COM>, bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) writes... } }As for your other comments about the Installer, yes I agree they are problems. }But they aren't new problems. We are installing basically the same stuff that }old Installer did. But the new Installer's design will let us do much better. }System 7.0 is introducing a lot of changes in the System Folder, and the }Installer will be able to be more intelligent about what it's doing. I think }you'll like the results. } }Thanks for the feedback. }Bruce }-- I found some other really strange problems with the new installer. On my home Mac II, it told me all the system files on my HD had newer dates than the files on the installer disks. It told this to me one file at a time, I guess while it was checking....But, it wouldn't install!! Now, my files probably did have a newer date,as I restored from a Tape backup with 'Modify Date' inadvertently on. Apple should not be checking dates, they should check VERSION STRINGS in the files! Just because my 6.0.3 system file has a newer date on it than their 6.0.4 System file doesn't mean I want to abort installation! I ended up building a system folder on another HD, then Copied everything into my Standard system folder (replacing same items) and rebooted. This worked fine for me since I do not modify my System file. ================================================================== Phil Hunt "Wherever you go, there you are!!!" Digital Equipment Corporation Phone: (508)486-2164 ENET: VAXPHW::PHIL USENET: phil@vaxphw.enet.dec.com MOREUSENET: phil%vaxphw.dec@decwrl.enet.dec.com EVENMORE: ....!decwrl!dec-vaxphw!phil
baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) (10/26/89)
In article <35918@apple.Apple.COM> bjones@Apple.COM (Bruce Jones) writes: >As for your other comments about the Installer, yes I agree they are problems. >But they aren't new problems. We are installing basically the same stuff that >old Installer did. But the new Installer's design will let us do much better. >System 7.0 is introducing a lot of changes in the System Folder, and the >Installer will be able to be more intelligent about what it's doing. I think >you'll like the results. > >Thanks for the feedback. >Bruce Thanks, Bruce, for bringing the Installer up to date. The new version is vastly easier and more obvious for the novice; I no longer have to tell people, "...and then after you install the System, put in the Printer Tools disk and drag..."; instead, the Installer guides them through every step. Also, those of us with only a single floppy appreciate the reduction in disk swaps when doing an install to floppy: from 50,000 to about about a dozen. Now when the Font/DA Mover goes away with System 7, we'll really be in business... :-) -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." baumgart@esquire.dpw.com | cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
pj@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Paul Jacoby) (10/27/89)
Another note on the Installer (more of a nit than a note really): When doing the upgrade from 6.0.3 to 6.0.4, you guys really mess up the System Folder as far as icon locations are concerned! Being a neat-freak, my 76 item System Folder is all nicely lined up. After the Installer got done with it, icons were everywhere; mainly glommed together in the visible scroll area of the window. What a mess! Took 10 minutes to get it all straightened out. Here's another vote for a "locked desktop location" option in the Get Info box.... :-) .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. | UUCP: {rosevax, crash, orator}!orbit!pnet51!pj | Working with idiots keeps | | ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!pj@nosc.mil | my life interesting... | | INET: pj@pnet51.cts.com | | `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------'