gall@yunexus.UUCP (Norman R. Gall) (10/15/89)
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* O F F I C I A L A N N O U N C E M E N T *
* *
* V E R S I O N 1 1 U P G R A D E *
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This file is fairly long, but you will only see it ONCE! If you wish to read it
all as you enter the RT now, use the PAUSE/RESUME button on the General status
bar of Red Ryder. It is posted as well in the software library.
Formal Release Notice Of New Version For Registered Red Ryder Users
-------------------------------------------------------------------
On October 15, 1989, The FreeSoft Company announced the impending release of a
new product, the successor to Red Ryder version 10.3. The new product,
interestingly enough, is called White Knight version 11. Why the name change?
Simple. Our license contract for the Red Ryder trademark is to expire on
January 1, 1990. Two days before we were to go to the printer with what was to
be called "Red Ryder 11", the owners of the trademark advised us that there was
to be a significant increase in the license fee renewel. The best calculations
that we could do on such short notice told us that this increase was
significant to the degree that we would either have to double the proposed
price of the product, or eliminate several jobs. Our response was to do
neither. Instead, we chose to select a new name for the product and apply for
trademark protection ourselves.
As I'm sure you can realize, we have built up a tremendous amount of good faith
in the name Red Ryder associated with our products, and we are sorry to have to
make such an abrupt "duck and weave". However, this is the choice that I feel
is best for the product and our customers. Please help us get the word out in
any way you can that this name change has happened - not only with word of
mouth but by redistributing this file as far and wide as possible.
Two separate documents are being distributed with this one describing all of
the numerous new features added to White Knight 11.
How To Update To The New Version
--------------------------------
More research and developement, and more hours of product testing have gone
into White Knight 11 than in all previous versions combined. I'm sure you're
going to be thrilled with what I've done with it, and I want to get it to you
as quickly as possible. However, we have not yet received the user manuals
back from the printer, and don't expect to until the end of October. We're
making this announcement a bit early so you can do what's necessary to get your
update request in as soon as possible and establish yourself in the queue.
We'll be filling orders as we receive the manuals hot off the press, and we do
expect some delays. Be patient.
White Knight takes strong advantage of the capabilities of the 128K ROM's,
which means that it will run on a Mac Plus, SE, II, or later machine. It will
not run on a 128K or 512K Macintosh. I doubt strongly that it will run on a
512KE (but should run fine if you upgrade that machine to one megabyte or more
of memory and use System software version 6.0.2 or later).
As always, we will support our existing customers with a moderately priced
upgrade path based upon 25% of the suggested retail price. The cost of the
upgrade from version 10 is $35.00. The cost of the upgrade for versions prior
to version 10 is $50.00. If you purchased version 10 on or after October 1,
1989, please send in a copy of your receipt (or other dated proof of purchase)
and we will give you the upgrade for just a $5.00 shipping charge ($10.00
outside of the United States).
To get the update, it is imperative that you follow some instructions
explicitly. We anticipate a _tremendous_ number of update requests coming in
all at once, so we're going to have to muddle through the best we can. If you
skip something or don't follow the instructions, your request will likely be
pitched in a box that has a derogatory sign on its side until we get some
breathing room and time to figure out what to do with it. So please, follow
these instructions TO THE LETTER, or save us both some heartache and give us a
call if you have any questions about these instructions.
1) The Master Disk that we sent with your original order is your proof of
purchase, and that's what you'll need to send in with your update fee. We
don't reuse these disks, so there's no need to pay a lot of attention to
protecting it. However, you should consider insuring the package for $139 (the
suggested retail for White Knight) should your disk be lost in the mail.
2) If it is a version 10 (that is: 10.0, 10.1, 10.2, or 10.3) master disk,
enclose payment of $35.00. If you have not yet updated to version 10, enclose
the Master Disk for the version you do have and payment of $50.00. We will
accept personal checks, money orders, postal money orders, or Visa and
MasterCard credit cards. If you use a CREDIT CARD, we'll need the NAME as it
appears on the card, the ACCOUNT NUMBER, and the EXPIRATION DATE. ALL PAYMENTS
MUST BE IN U.S. FUNDS. If you live outside the U.S. and don't have a Visa or
MasterCard or U.S. funds bank account, please use an International Postal Money
Order issued in U.S. funds, which is available from your local post office.
3) Address the envelope to:
The FreeSoft Company
White Knight Update Dept.
150 Hickory Drive
Beaver Falls, PA 15010
United States of America
If you have questions, our phone number is (412)846-2700. Our FAX number is
(412)847-4436 (for ordering questions only - not tech. support or product
information).
3) If you are in a rush and have a Federal Express account, you can enclose a
prepaid FedEx return receipt and we will honor that. Otherwise, contact us for
additional charges regarding Federal Express, UPS, or the carrier of your
choice (if it services us). Normally, we will ship via UPS unless you don't
give us a street address, in which case we will use U.S. Post Office Airmail.
Charges for UPS 2nd day and overnight delivery are listed in #6 below.
4) Update orders will be processed in the order received. If you are in a real
big hurry (I know some of you are desperate to get this) - I understand and
have provided a means for you to update as quickly as possible. I call it
"Express Service". We will move your order to the front of the line and get it
out with the first available manual (usually the same day we get it) if you
will do the following:
A) Enclose an extra $10.00
B) Write on the lower left hand corner of the outside of the
envelope the words "UPDATE EXPRESS ORDER".
C) Look at #3 above and enclose any additional charges
necessary if you want it sent back any quicker than
normal UPS or U.S. Mail.
5) If you are a Pennsylvania resident, you must enclose 6% sales tax ($2.10 for
version 10 to version 11, or $3.30 for version previous to 10 to version 11),
or send us a signed copy of your tax exempt form.
6) This is a _BIG_ package (the manual alone is twice the size of 10.3's), and
is therefore quite heavy and expensive to ship. If you are in the U.S., we'll
pay for regular shipping via Airmail or UPS, so there is no charge for this.
However, due to the high costs of airmail postage rates and the time involved
dealing with customs forms, customers outside the U.S. must add postage to
their update fee. We're pleased to announce that Emery Air Freight has kindly
extended us special rates that are extremely competitive with U.S. Mail,
especially given that Emery will deliver within 5 business days (2 to 3 days in
some countries) and the U.S. Mail can take up to 6 to 8 weeks.
Here are the shipping charges we'll need you to include:
United States
-------------
We'll pay for Airmail or regular UPS, so you don't have to include anything for
those services. For UPS 2nd day delivery, add $5.00. For UPS overnight
delivery, add $14.25. For other couriers, please contact our office.
Canada
------
Airmail - $5.00
Emery Air Freight - $19.00
Australia, New Zealand
----------------------
Airmail - $21.90
Emery Air Freight - $27.50
Europe, Caribbean, Mexico
-------------------------
Airmail - $18.30
Emery Air Freight - $25.00
Far East: Japan, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Etc.
-----------------------------------------------------
Airmail - $21.90
Emery Air Freight - $25.00
Central America
---------------
Airmail - $11.10
Emery Air Freight - $34.50
Middle East, South Africa
-------------------------
Airmail - $21.90
Emery Air Freight - $39.10
U.S. Territories - Guam, Saipan, Etc.
-------------------------------------
Airmail - not available
Emery Air Freight - $25.00
Let's review the prices one more time:
1) REQUIRED (one of the following two)
Update from version 10: $35.00
OR Update from previous to 10: $50.00
2) REQUIRED (outside of U.S.)
Shipping cost: $??.?? (see #6 above)
3) REQUIRED (if Pennsylvania resident)
Sales tax: $??.?? (see #5 above)
4) OPTIONAL
Express Service: $10.00
-----------------------------------------------------------
Your Total: $??.??
-----------------------------------------------------------
As indicated at the beginning of this File there are two more files that
describe the numerous new features in White Knight 11. These files posted here
would keep you reading for even longer than this one did. So the White knight
NEW FEATURE files and the this announcement will be posted in the Software
Library for you to download. You can place these files on your BBS or other
BBS's for the widest possible disemination of the White Knight update
information and the new features.
S.W
--
York University Department of Philosophy Toronto, Ontario, Canada
_____________________________________________________________________________
"'I have compelling grounds for my certitude.' These grounds make the
certitude objective." -- L. Wittgenstein barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) (10/23/89)
In article <4380@yunexus.UUCP> gall@yunexus.UUCP (Norman R. Gall) writes: >This file is fairly long, but you will only see it ONCE! Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 announcement I've seen. Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. barmar@think.com {uunet,harvard}!think!barmar
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/24/89)
In article <31019@news.Think.COM> barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) writes: > >Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 >announcement I've seen. >Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. I had intended to post it a couple more times to allow those that may have missed it the first time around to catch the posting. However as you indicated it has made the rounds about 3 times now in less than a week here. So I will wait a couple weeks before posting the annoncement again. I don't want to re-post it to be a pain or use net bandwidth, just to make sure that the largest number of users can locate and read the information and upgrade if they wish to. Because I think its safe to assume that not everyone reads this group all the time and may have missed the posting... -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
kovar@popvax.harvard.edu (David C. Kovar) (10/24/89)
Pardon me, but after seeing several large files concerning RedRyder
and White Knight I got to wondering about the usual "No commercial use
of USENET." It's a wonderful program and all that, but it is NOT
{Free|Share}ware anymore and thus these postings strike me as being
"commercial use of USENET". Or am I missing something? Is it exempt 'cause
it's wonderful, or was freeware, or something else?
-David C. Kovar
Technical Consultant ARPA: kovar@popvax.harvard.edu
Office of Information Technology BITNET: corwin@harvarda.bitnet
Harvard University MacNET: DKovar
Ma Bell: 617-732-1778
"It is easier to get forgiveness than permission."kovar@popvax.harvard.edu (David C. Kovar) (10/24/89)
In article <987@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: -In article <31019@news.Think.COM> barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) writes: -- --Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 --announcement I've seen. --Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. - -I had intended to post it a couple more times to allow those that may -have missed it the first time around to catch the posting. However as -you indicated it has made the rounds about 3 times now in less than -a week here. So I will wait a couple weeks before posting the annoncement -again. I don't want to re-post it to be a pain or use net bandwidth, just -to make sure that the largest number of users can locate and read the -information and upgrade if they wish to. Because I think its safe to -assume that not everyone reads this group all the time and may have -missed the posting... You specifically stated in the top of the long article that we would only see this message once. I'm of the opinion that even that once didn't follow net standards. I'm definitely of the opinion that more than once violates net & social standards. Red Ryder is commercial software and you require people to register that software. If you keep all those registration cards, you have a list of many of the people who might want to upgrade. Send mail to those people. Or, maybe, send ONE message to the entire network. Anything more than that is blatantly using a free service for commerical purposes. Even if everyone doesn't read this group all the time, most sites keep articles around for one or two weeks. The majority of the people reading the net probably log in within that cut off. Yes, I could use the "k" or "n" keys, and have. But this goes beyond that issue, I believe. For the record, I'm still using a copy of the pre-commercial RedRyder and am quite happy with it. I've seen the later versions and I believe that it is a good product. That still doesn't justify abusing the net. -David C. Kovar Technical Consultant ARPA: kovar@popvax.harvard.edu Office of Information Technology BITNET: corwin@harvarda.bitnet Harvard University MacNET: DKovar Ma Bell: 617-732-1778 "It is easier to get forgiveness than permission."
macman@wpi.wpi.edu (Christopher Silverberg) (10/24/89)
In article <2938@husc6.harvard.edu> kovar@popvax.harvard.edu (David C. Kovar) writes: > Pardon me, but after seeing several large files concerning RedRyder >and White Knight I got to wondering about the usual "No commercial use >of USENET." It's a wonderful program and all that, but it is NOT >{Free|Share}ware anymore and thus these postings strike me as being >"commercial use of USENET". Or am I missing something? Is it exempt 'cause >it's wonderful, or was freeware, or something else? Well, yea, kinda... you'll notice that none of the postings have been from the companies themselves. At least i dont THINK Norm Goodger gets a paycheck from freesoft. Most of us are just Fans of Red Ryder. Freesoft doesn't make millions of dollars from their sales, just enough to get by. We're all fans of the Mac, so we may post about new upgrades regarding the Mac. That could be commercial too in some sense. Am I making any sense? Probably not... but i tried... -- ============================================================================== (.) (.) | Chris Silverberg, WPI Box 719 | BBS Sysop: Main Street U.S.A u | USENET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu | 2400 baud - (508) 832-7725 \___/ | BITNET: macman@wpi.bitnet | Fido: 322/575 - Red Ryder Host
geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) (10/25/89)
In article <2938@husc6.harvard.edu> kovar@popvax.harvard.edu (David C. Kovar) writes: > Pardon me, but after seeing several large files concerning RedRyder >and White Knight I got to wondering about the usual "No commercial use >of USENET." It's a wonderful program and all that, but it is NOT >{Free|Share}ware anymore and thus these postings strike me as being >"commercial use of USENET". Or am I missing something? Is it exempt 'cause >it's wonderful, or was freeware, or something else? Pardon my ignorance, but how is talking about the pending release of White Knight any different than talking about Adobe Type Manager, to which noone objected? I like hearing about such things, and it'll be a while before we see it in MacUser or MacWorld. Maybe we need comp.sys.mac.product-announcements (to be followed, of course, by comp.sys.mac.product-announcements.d!) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) I do agree, however, that we could have done without seeing the message three times. The traffic here is high enough already. -- Geoff Allen \ Disclaimer: WINCO doesn't believe in Macs, {uunet,bigtex}!pmafire!geoff \ so of course these are my views. ucdavis!egg-id!pmafire!geoff \
6sigma@polari.UUCP (Brian Matthews) (10/25/89)
In article <987@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: |In article <31019@news.Think.COM> barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) writes: |>Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 |>announcement I've seen. [...] |So I will wait a couple weeks before posting the annoncement |again. I don't want to re-post it to be a pain or use net bandwidth, just |to make sure that the largest number of users can locate and read the |information and upgrade if they wish to. Now wait a sec. I didn't mind one posting on the upgrade. Red Ryder is a good product and White Knight certainly looks like it will be even better, and undoubtedly many people who read comp.sys.mac use Red Ryder and will want to upgrade. However, the upgrade announcement is unquestionably a commercial announcement. White Knight is a commercial product. I think one such posting is enough, and would certainly be less than happy to see more than the three I've already seen. Why don't you send notices to your registered users, take out adds in magazines and periodicals, etc. announcing the upgrade? Yes, this would cost money, but it would be your money, not that of the people paying for the hardware and software which sends your commercial announcement around the world. Or are you planning to pay standard ad rates to all of the sites carrying your postings? Brian L. Matthews blm@6sigma.UUCP
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/26/89)
In article <829@pmafire.UUCP> geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) writes: > >I do agree, however, that we could have done without seeing the message >three times. The traffic here is high enough already. The big problem as I see it with the multiple postings of the White Knight announcement (and many other postings for that matter) is the poor news software. There is no easy way to read threads of msgs, no way to know that someone has replied 10 times already to a msg you are replying to. You can list the msg subjects, but how many of us do that? While I do not think there is an easy solution to this, there is room for improvement in News software so that as you enter replies, you can perhaps be informed that other replies are posted to this msg (because of the subject line) Easier commands to follow threads in News. And perhaps a few other things as well. But since this is not the forum to fix News software, I'll leave it at that. On another note, I will try to send the upgrade announcement to anyone that wishes it thru email. Occasionally I have seen mail bounce, so I cannot guarantee that if you send email to request the update info to White Knight 11 that you will get it. But if I recieve your msg I will try. I will repost this little blurb or something like it from time to time so that others that may not be aware of the White knight 11 upgrade can get the information.. -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) (10/26/89)
In article <995@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> Norm Goodger writes: >poor news software. There is no easy way to read threads of msgs, no >way to know that someone has replied 10 times already to a msg you are >replying to. You can list the msg subjects, but how many of us do that? >While I do not think there is an easy solution to this, there is room >for improvement in News software so that as you enter replies, you can [other stuff deleted] Sorry, Norm, but this won't wash. Blaming the excess posts on the news software is just plain wrong. The news sw didn't post the excess message copy...some human- in this case, you- did it. The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for postings for commercial products. Maybe something along the lines of "White Knight (formerly RR) is coming out Oct. xx; email me for more details" would have been OK. The way you did it, though, is not really kosher. So..let's move the CTB discussion to comp.sys.mac.programmer, the White Knight propaganda to email, and this whole discussion to inactive status. -Paul -- Paul E. Robichaux |"Collateral damage is the number of women Georgia Institute of Technology | and children you kill when attempting to do GT PO Box 30818; Atlanta, GA 30332 | something else."- Cap Weinberger. Internet: gt0818a@prism.gatech.edu | All opinions in this message are mine.
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (10/26/89)
gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) writes: >Blaming the excess posts on the news software is just plain wrong. The >news sw didn't post the excess message copy...some human- in this case, >you- did it. Wrong, Paul -- Norm posted it once. Two other independent people also posted it. If I hadn't seen Norm post it, *I* would have posted it -- because I knew it was of interest to many people here on the net. You can't fault Norm because people who weren't in communication with each other all did what they thought was a good deed for the net. I personally think the net is a good place to see upgrade notices for important software packages -- upgrade notices are much different, if you ask me, than advertisements for new software. It's an information resource. >The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for >postings for commercial products. Most of what we talk about on the net is commercial products. Apple, for instance, sells Macintoshes last I looked. Now, blatant advertising I agree, but I don't agree that what Norm posted was a blatant ad. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking] Trust Mama Nature to remind us just how important things like sci.aquaria's name really is in the scheme of things.
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/26/89)
As quoted from <2943@husc6.harvard.edu> by kovar@popvax.harvard.edu (David C. Kovar): +--------------- | In article <987@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: | -In article <31019@news.Think.COM> barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) writes: | --Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 | --announcement I've seen. | --Barry Margolin, Thinking Machines Corp. | - | -I had intended to post it a couple more times to allow those that may | | You specifically stated in the top of the long article that we would | only see this message once. I'm of the opinion that even that once didn't +--------------- (1) He was joking about the reposts. They were done by: - an official from Freesoft - me (I didn't know someone from Freesoft was on the net at the time) - someone else who downloaded it from a BBS (2) "You will only see this message once" -- it was clear to me, at least, that that was part of the BBS's "header" for the message. I suspect it was set up as a login bulletin on the BBS in question. (3) The announcement was posted as an informational message, not to encourage people to buy White Knight (I, for one, dislike Red Ryder and am not particularly interested in upgrading unless someone reports that the user interface has been made less annoying). Lighten up. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery: allbery@NCoast.ORG, BALLBERY (MCI Mail), ALLBERY (Delphi) uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp *(comp.sources.misc mail to comp-sources-misc[-request]@backbone.site, please)* *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)* >>> Shall we try for comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac next, Richard? <<<
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/26/89)
In article <2785@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) writes: >Sorry, Norm, but this won't wash. >Blaming the excess posts on the news software is just plain wrong. The >news sw didn't post the excess message copy...some human- in this case, >you- did it. > >The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for >postings for commercial products. Maybe something along the lines of >"White Knight (formerly RR) is coming out Oct. xx; email me for more >details" would have been OK. The way you did it, though, is not really >kosher. >kosher. Paul, the two other postings of the announcement were NOT posted by me. I posted the information just "once". As indicated by someone else, I don't see anyone flaming Adobe for the massive discussion of the "commercial" product ATM that discussed how it worked, what it does, what affects it has and who remembers all what else. So for those that get into the "Holier than thou" mode.. Give me a break. Most everyone here has broken the so called rules I suspect in one way or another.... My only intention was to pass on the upgrade information and the new features. I still contend that if the News software worked better, many duplicated postings and answers could be eliminated. For those that wanted and needed the upgrade to White Knight information, I did them a service, for you Paul, I don't know if you cared in the least. Try the "n" key next time, works great for me when I don't care to read something I am not interested in. nuff said....perhaps to much...but I feel better now... -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
stevem@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Steve Miller) (10/26/89)
>Pardon my ignorance, but how is talking about the pending release of >White Knight any different than talking about Adobe Type Manager, to >which noone objected? The message of concern was in it's own words a "formal release announcement" and this is clear from the contents. This document had ordering information and everything and I feel was inappropriate for the net. This shouldn't be compared to the general discussions going on about ATM. The closest thing was the single ATM announcement made which was much shorter and spent more time talking about features. I felt the ATM announcement was more appropriate since ATM was so new and different that it warrented discussion. Please don't try to tell me that Red Ryder (White Knight) version XX.XXX is some new earth shattering new software technology that every just MUST here about. Also, I don't think it matters if the person who posted it was an official Red Ryder or not and it doesn't matter that Red Ryder is a (small, tiny, poor, special) company with few resources. Steven Miller Vancouver Division Hewlett Packard
wasilko@netcom.UUCP (Jeff Wasilko) (10/26/89)
In article <995@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: >In article <829@pmafire.UUCP> geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) writes: >> >>I do agree, however, that we could have done without seeing the message >>three times. The traffic here is high enough already. > [lines deleted to keep my mailer happy] >On another note, I will try to send the upgrade announcement to anyone >that wishes it thru email. Occasionally I have seen mail bounce, so I >cannot guarantee that if you send email to request the update info to >White Knight 11 that you will get it. But if I recieve your msg I will >try. I will repost this little blurb or something like it from time to >time so that others that may not be aware of the White knight 11 upgrade >can get the information.. > > >-- >Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 >3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. >Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) >UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM This still smells of commercial use of the net. I don't see Microsoft, Claris 3Com or any other major software publishers / hardware manufacturers posting repetive messages (advertisements) about product upgrades. I don't see any reason why this should be any different. ,
rang@cs.wisc.edu (Anton Rang) (10/26/89)
In article <3403@netcom.UUCP> wasilko@netcom.UUCP (Jeff Wasilko) writes: >This still smells of commercial use of the net. I don't see Microsoft, Claris >3Com or any other major software publishers / hardware manufacturers >posting repetive messages (advertisements) about product upgrades. I don't >see any reason why this should be any different. Well, I do see companies like Symantec using the net to post upgrade notices. In fact, they even post updates to their software (i.e. the LSP 2.01->2.15 [or whatever] program).... I don't see anything wrong with this. It's usually useful info (even if I don't own the product, it gives me a chance to see what kind of work is going into it, and the ensuing discussion is useful in getting a feel for people's opinions of the product). I'm not quite sure where the boundary should be, though. (BTW, did any representatives of the *company* post the original article, or was it posted by somebody else?) Anton +----------------------------------+------------------+ | Anton Rang (grad student) | rang@cs.wisc.edu | | University of Wisconsin--Madison | | +----------------------------------+------------------+
jnoh@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US (Jay Noh) (10/26/89)
In article <829@pmafire.UUCP> geoff@pmafire.UUCP (Geoff Allen) writes: >Pardon my ignorance, but how is talking about the pending release of >White Knight any different than talking about Adobe Type Manager, to >which noone objected? I did actually object to it. I wasn't going to post my objection to such commercial use for the sake of keeping the volume of c.s.m. down. However, now that everyone is voicing their opinion on this matter, I must say that any commercial use of the newsgroup should be totally banned. If the software vendors keep track of its registered users, they can (and should) send upgrade info directly to the registered users only! It would even be profitable for the software companies to do so by eliminating people that would, for example in RR, send in shareware fees for RR 9.x and subsequently upgrading to RR 11.0, rather than paying the new RR 11.0 price. BTW, I am a registered user of RR 10.3 and have absolutely no intention of upgrading to RR 11.0. -- jnoh@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US UUCP: ...!ames!{killer,attctc}!jolnet!jnoh CIS: 72437,1040
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (10/26/89)
>However, now that everyone is voicing their opinion on this matter, I must >say that any commercial use of the newsgroup should be totally banned. How do you plan on implementing this? Bans are great -- but without enforcement, they're effectively worthless. (Hint: in ten years of hacking usenet, we've never come up with an enforcement mechanism. Good luck). Best thing we have -- and it generally works quite well -- is peer pressure. If something steps over the line, enough people bitch so it doesn't happen again. >If the software vendors keep track of its registered users, they can (and >should) send upgrade info directly to the registered users only! Many do. But something like 20% of the homes in america move every year. When you move, do you write and tell every company you've registered software from that you've moved? Did yo send in the card in the first place? A mailing list can be counted on to be about 18% obsolete after 12 months, and about 25% obsolete after 18 months -- not to mention that only about 3 in 10 people turn in the registration cards in the first place. It's not just the developers fault the mailings don't get out. That's why these things need to be distributed. These occurances are really rare. If you want to scream about commercial use of the net, scream about the growing tendency of places like comp.sys.mac to be used for classified ads. There are *lots* more of those than there are postings of things like White Knight. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> Editor,OtherRealms <+> Member SFWA/ASFA chuq@apple.com <+> CI$: 73317,635 <+> [This is myself speaking] Trust Mama Nature to remind us just how important things like sci.aquaria's name really is in the scheme of things.
bruceh@mentor.com (Bruce Holm) (10/26/89)
From article <35921@apple.Apple.COM>, by chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach): > gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) writes: >>Blaming the excess posts on the news software is just plain wrong. The >>news sw didn't post the excess message copy...some human- in this case, >>you- did it. > > Wrong, Paul -- Norm posted it once. Two other independent people also > posted it. If I hadn't seen Norm post it, *I* would have posted it -- > because I knew it was of interest to many people here on the net. > > You can't fault Norm because people who weren't in communication with each > other all did what they thought was a good deed for the net. I personally > think the net is a good place to see upgrade notices for important software > packages -- upgrade notices are much different, if you ask me, than > advertisements for new software. It's an information resource. > >>The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for >>postings for commercial products. > > Most of what we talk about on the net is commercial products. Apple, for > instance, sells Macintoshes last I looked. Now, blatant advertising I > agree, but I don't agree that what Norm posted was a blatant ad. I agree with Chuq. The single posting by Norman was reasonable and greatly appreciated by me. I didn't even mind seeing the announcement a 2nd and 3rd time. What I think WAS uncalled for is all the msgs arguing about whether his posting was proper or not. All those opposing Norman's post have collectively generated far more noise on the net than his one msg, which I think was FAR more valuable to read than all this follow-up noise. Keep it up, Norm and any others out there who may be hesitating to post announcements of interest...I will appreciate them. --Bruce -- ** These are my opinions, & not necessarily those of Mentor Graphics Corp. ** Bruce Holm, Design/Analysis Div. / (503) 626-7000 Mentor Graphics Corp. / USENET: bruceh@pdx.MENTOR.COM Beaverton, OR 97005-7191 / UUCP: ...!{sequent,tessi,apollo}!mntgfx!bruceh
hallett@positron.uucp (Jeff Hallett x5163 ) (10/26/89)
In article <2785@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) writes: >The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for >postings for commercial products. Maybe something along the lines of >"White Knight (formerly RR) is coming out Oct. xx; email me for more >details" would have been OK. The way you did it, though, is not really >kosher. BS - 99% pure, too. Since Red Ryder is very widely used and since the posting wasn't really advertising copy, IMO it was very appropriate. It passed on information that a lot of us wanted. Personally, I think it is moronic that people are complaining about this thread. Norm's message wasn't propaganda - it stated what White Knight's new features were and how to get it. Simple. If you want to complain about this, then complain about Benzanson's Adobe Type Manager postings too (I wouldn't, but let's be fair about it). While you are at it, scream at the people who post "X For Sale" messages too; really that's what the classified newsgroups are for. > >So..let's move the CTB discussion to comp.sys.mac.programmer, the >White Knight propaganda to email, and this whole discussion to inactive >status. Oh yes, let's all hail Paul Robichaux as the great Net God and all bow and stop discussing something just because he doesn't like it. You got a 'k' key and 'n' key just like all the rest of it. Use 'em. -- Jeffrey A. Hallett, PET Software Engineering GE Medical Systems, W641, PO Box 414, Milwaukee, WI 53201 (414) 548-5163 : EMAIL - hallett@gemed.ge.com "Your logic was impeccable Captain. We are in grave danger."
isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ken Hancock) (10/27/89)
In article <3403@netcom.UUCP> wasilko@netcom.UUCP (Jeff Wasilko) writes: >This still smells of commercial use of the net. I don't see Microsoft, Claris >3Com or any other major software publishers / hardware manufacturers >posting repetive messages (advertisements) about product upgrades. I don't >see any reason why this should be any different. Sorry, but I wish they did post upgrade notices to the net. I don't see that as a commerical use, but more of a user-services/customer support. Claris, for instance, tends to sneak out lots and lots of bug-fix releases as 1.0v1, 1.0v2, 1.0v3, etc. I'd love to know when they're available, but instead, I have to go by word of mouth. Take THINK, for example. THINK regularly posts upgrade patches, library corrections, etc. to the net in comp.mac.binaries. One could argue that this is commercial use, but I think it's a wonderful service that THINK provides and I'd give them an A+ for customer satisfaction and service. Ken -- Ken Hancock '90 | E-mail: (BITNET/UUCP/INTERNET) Computer Resource Center Consultant | isle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu -------------------------------------+-------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER? I don't get paid enough to worry about disclaimers.
rock%warp@Sun.COM (Bill Petro) (10/27/89)
6sigma@polari.UUCP (Brian Matthews) writes: >In article <987@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: >|In article <31019@news.Think.COM> barmar@kulla (Barry Margolin) writes: >|>Hmm, this is at least the THIRD posting of the White Knight 11.0 >|>announcement I've seen. >[...] >|So I will wait a couple weeks before posting the annoncement >|again. I don't want to re-post it to be a pain or use net bandwidth, just >|to make sure that the largest number of users can locate and read the >|information and upgrade if they wish to. >Now wait a sec. I didn't mind one posting on the upgrade. Red Ryder >is a good product and White Knight certainly looks like it will be even >better, and undoubtedly many people who read comp.sys.mac use Red Ryder >and will want to upgrade. >However, the upgrade announcement is unquestionably a commercial >announcement. White Knight is a commercial product. I think one >such posting is enough, and would certainly be less than happy to see >more than the three I've already seen. Gentlefolk, Let us all cool our jets. Norm had no nefarius motives in posting the announcement about a program that allows people to do things like read this newsgroup from home :-) Why did it show up more than once? Because there are a lot of RR (WK to be) users out there, and they can be zealous. Indeed, I saw the notice on a BBS before I saw it here and was going to post it myself, but decided to wait a few days. Let us not deprecate zealousness. That's why all of us Mac-ers are here anyway. As far as Norm's comments about a problem with the limits of the news reading software, this can be remedied by using another newsreader. Many (most?) readers I imagine are using rn, which displays articles by number. I use nn (yet another news reader, "no news is good news") that allows the reader to sort the articles by subject, age, or arrival. There are features in other GNU news readers (gnus, gnews) that allow many fancy manipulations. There are other newsgroups for this kind of discussions, and I don't wish to belabor the point, but using another news reader like nn could cut down on the thermal epistleary exchanges. Or increase it, since nn allows you to get through much more news, faster! It is available via anonymous ftp from freja.diku.dk. (Gee, I hope that wasn't a plug, but it wasn't a commercial application after all :-) Bill Petro {decwrl,hplabs,ucbvax}!sun!Eng!rock "UNIX for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 19:12
ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM (Norman Goodger) (10/28/89)
In article <1866@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US> jnoh@jolnet.UUCP (Jay Noh) writes: >However, now that everyone is voicing their opinion on this matter, I must >say that any commercial use of the newsgroup should be totally banned. What denotes commercial use of the net? If its posting upgrade information, then Symantec had better stop posting those upgrades out here and letting you know whats going on with future updates, to much commercialism.. At the same time lets all flame every last person that occasionally posts something for sale here...then we can also stop talking about any commercial product here because everytime we talk about ATM or any other product, (Whether it be good or bad) is a commercial for that product too. While I am carrying this to the extreme, I do not think you can really draw a good and fine line of whats commercial and whats not. Sure there are probably slews of other ways to argue this both ways...I for one consider any information "commercial" or otherwise to be worthwhile if I am interested in that information. You want to start banning things, go to some other country...This is America...We have constiutional rights to free speech here...and unless there are rules posted on a regular basis that "clearly" and "irrefutably" define what can and cannot be posted here within the obvious scope that this is Macintosh oriented discussion group. I think that banning various postings because you don't want to read them, or don't like them is a bad idea.. While I expect a variety of controversy from this posting, thats fine with me, it all goes to prove that trying to ban something creates more of a problem than you tried to fix. As a last note Jay, as you mentioned that you are not planning to upgrade to White knight, thats your loss...no one elses..(IMHO).... -- Norm Goodger SysOp - MacInfo BBS @415-795-8862 3Com Corp. Co-SysOp FreeSoft RT - GEnie. Enterprise Systems Division (I disclaim anything and everything) UUCP: {3comvax,auspex,sun}!bridge2!ngg Internet: ngg@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM
fozzard@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Richard Fozzard) (10/28/89)
In article <995@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: >The big problem as I see it with the multiple postings of the White >Knight announcement (and many other postings for that matter) is the >poor news software. There is no easy way to read threads of msgs, no >way to know that someone has replied 10 times already to a msg you are >replying to. You can list the msg subjects, but how many of us do that? I dont know about Norm's version of rn, but all the ones that I have used have the ability to follow threads by typing ^N (control-n) instead of just n. ^N then becomes the default, so hitting the space bar is enough to follow a thread - very easy, and I use it all the time. Try hitting "h" or read the manual to see if your news reader does this. It can save loads of time and net bandwidth. >While I do not think there is an easy solution to this, there is room >for improvement in News software so that as you enter replies, you can >perhaps be informed that other replies are posted to this msg (because >of the subject line) Even with ^N, this would definitely be a nice feature...
siegel@endor.harvard.edu (Rich Siegel) (10/28/89)
In article <999@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: > >What denotes commercial use of the net? If its posting upgrade information, >then Symantec had better stop posting those upgrades out here and letting >you know whats going on with future updates, to much commercialism.. I beg your pardon? I don't think that the posting of free upgrade patches constitutes commercial use; especially since (a) the patches are not part of the mainstream newsgroup, and (b) those upgrades are provided free of charge; Symantec derives no monetary compensation from the uploading, downloading, or use of the upgrade patches. Furthermore, (c) the upgrade patches are directed at current owners of the software packages, and contain no advertising material, either in the patch itself or in the message accompanying the upgrade. Also we do not "let people know what's going on with future upgrades". All of the discussion about future features is initiated by users of the packages, not by Symantec (through me); in fact, it is company policy to not discuss future feature sets, schedules, or shipping dates. You may wish to find another example of "commercial usage" for your argument. --Rich ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rich Siegel Staff Software Developer Symantec Corporation, Language Products Group Internet: siegel@endor.harvard.edu UUCP: ..harvard!endor!siegel "There is no personal problem which cannot be solved by sufficient application of high explosives." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/29/89)
As quoted from <13275@boulder.Colorado.EDU> by fozzard@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Richard Fozzard): +--------------- | In article <995@bridge2.ESD.3Com.COM> ngg@bridge2.3Com.com (Norman Goodger) writes: | >The big problem as I see it with the multiple postings of the White | >Knight announcement (and many other postings for that matter) is the | >poor news software. There is no easy way to read threads of msgs, no | >way to know that someone has replied 10 times already to a msg you are | >replying to. You can list the msg subjects, but how many of us do that? | | I dont know about Norm's version of rn, but all the ones that I have | used have the ability to follow threads by typing ^N (control-n) instead +--------------- That's not his point; ^N works, but doesn't tell you enough to let you know that replies already exist. He's talking about looking at an entire thread *at the same time*, not just following threads as it finds them. In any case, none of this would have helped with the copy I posted; as I noted at the top, I didn't know whether it had already been posted or not (did anyone actually *read* my preamble? I don't think so from the posts I see here) because ncoast wasn't getting news and I can't seem to read comp.sys.mac from uunet. (P.S. Don't bother trying to tell me how; I'm not on uunet to read news, except for c.s.misc which I get fine.) ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery: allbery@NCoast.ORG, BALLBERY (MCI Mail), ALLBERY (Delphi) uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp *(comp.sources.misc mail to comp-sources-misc[-request]@backbone.site, please)* *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)* >>> Shall we try for comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac next, Richard? <<<
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/29/89)
As quoted from <780070@hpvcfs1.HP.COM> by stevem@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Steve Miller): +--------------- | The message of concern was in it's own words a "formal release announcement" | and this is clear from the contents. This document had ordering information | and everything and I feel was inappropriate for the net. This shouldn't be +--------------- [begin heavy sarcasm] Well, excuuuuuuuse me. I guess I won't bother to upload informational messages I find on other systems any more, because someone might think I'm making commercial use of the net when I have nothing (or as little as possible, in the case of RR) to do with the company or the product. I posted one of the three copies that generated so much uproar. I thought I was doing the readers of c.s.m a service. But since I was clearly commercializing on the net, I guess I should ask Freesoft for a paycheck. [end heavy sarcasm] Lighten up, for crying out loud! ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery: allbery@NCoast.ORG, BALLBERY (MCI Mail), ALLBERY (Delphi) uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp *(comp.sources.misc mail to comp-sources-misc[-request]@backbone.site, please)* *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)* >>> Shall we try for comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac next, Richard? <<<
Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (10/29/89)
Much ado has been made about the use of the net by commercial interests. This discussion has mainly (exclusively?) centered around Norm Goodger announcing the introduction of The Freesoft Company's new telcom product. Norm has been thrashed about mercilessly for "abusing the net for his own monetary interests" or some such thing. Fortunately for common sense, Chuq von Rospach managed to intercede a bit: . >gt0818a@prism.gatech.EDU (Paul E. Robichaux) writes: >>Blaming the excess posts on the news software is just plain wrong. >>The news sw didn't post the excess message copy...some human- in this >>case, you- did it. > >Wrong, Paul -- Norm posted it once. Two other independent people also >posted it. If I hadn't seen Norm post it, *I* would have posted it -- >because I knew it was of interest to many people here on the net. > >You can't fault Norm because people who weren't in communication with >each other all did what they thought was a good deed for the net. I >personally think the net is a good place to see upgrade notices for >important software packages -- upgrade notices are much different, if >you ask me, than advertisements for new software. It's an information >resource. > >>The original posting was questionable. The net isn't the place for >>postings for commercial products. > >Most of what we talk about on the net is commercial products. Apple, >for instance, sells Macintoshes last I looked. Now, blatant >advertising I agree, but I don't agree that what Norm posted was a >blatant ad. . . Might I suggest the following two messages as blatant ads that obviously stray outside the conventional wisdom about net commercialization: . . >Subject: Computer Graphics Workshop (update) > >The registration deadline for this exciting workshop is approaching >fast. More importantly, the deadline for the hotel is October 30, >only a few short days away. > >[stuff deleted] > >So register now! A convenient registration form is attached to this >message. > >Spencer Thomas (spencer@eecs.umich.edu) > >**************************************************************** > >5th USENIX Computer Graphics Workshop > >November 16-17, 1989, Doubletree Hotel, Monterey, CA > > The theme of the workshop is "personal graphics." By this, we mean the > >[stuff deleted] > >Tentative Schedule > >Thursday, November 16 > >Opening Session > >"Microfabrication on the Macintosh" by Carlo H. Sequin > >"3D Animation on the Macintosh with 3DWorks" by John F. Schlag and >Julian E. Gomez > >[etc., etc.] > >******************************************************************* >Please register in advance to attend this limited enrollment >workshop. > >REGISTRATION FEE:$200.00 >REGISTRATION DEADLINE:November 8 > >For further information, please contact: > >[and gave an address] > >Registration information: Please complete and return the enclosed >registration form with your payment. You may pay by check (MAKE CHECK >PAYABLE TO USENIX CONFERENCE) or use your VISA, MasterCard or American > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Express card. Payment MUST accompany registration form. Purchase >^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >[etc., etc., etc.] . . . Came another message not too much later: . >Subject: Microsoft Word Users Conference > > > CONFERENCE FOR MICROSOFT WORD USERS > >For users of Microsoft Word version 5.0 for the PC and Microsoft Word >4.0 for the Macintosh--especially technical writers, legal >secretaries, professional trainers, and technical support staff- >Microsoft is conducting a training conference November 6 through 8, >1989 in Bellevue, Washington. > >This two-and-a-half-day conference is specifically for power users who >want intensive training plus the inside story on Microsoft's word >processing strategies. The conference will feature hands-on and >lecture courses, with training on the particular features of Word that >are most useful to various professionals. For example, if you're a >technical writer, you'll learn about managing long documents and >generating an index and a table of contents. > >Conference fee is $600. To register, or for more information, call >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >toll-free (800) 227-4679, and ask about the Microsoft Word User's >Conference. So, I hope that the net thought-police have seen that they have better instances of commercialization to turn their attention to, and leave The Freesoft Company alone. As an alternative, they can ignore even these blatant commercial ads alone and let well enough be. --Adam-- -- Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200!Adam.Frix INET: Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG