Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Stein) (11/15/89)
What does everyone think of America OnLine? I think it has a great interface like MacNet but seems to have a lot more information than MacNet and has more general sections like an Encyclopedia and conferencing and other stuff found on Compuserve. I have only used it twice but it seemed VERY SLOW. Has anyone else had speed problems. I am using a 2400 Hayes modem but the speed doesn't seem to be the modem transfer time but simply their system responding to the America Online software. Any comments? Adam Stein -- Adam Stein via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!107!947!Adam.Stein INET: Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG
macduff@cbnewse.ATT.COM (Roger R. Espinosa) (11/17/89)
In article <29969.2562DE85@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG>, Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Stein) writes: > What does everyone think of America OnLine? > I think it has a great interface like MacNet but seems to have a lot more > information than MacNet and has more general sections like an Encyclopedia > and conferencing and other stuff found on Compuserve. I have only used it > twice but it seemed VERY SLOW. Has anyone else had speed problems. I am > using a 2400 Hayes modem but the speed doesn't seem to be the modem > transfer time but simply their system responding to the America Online > software. Any comments? > Adam Stein > > -- > Adam Stein via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH > UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!107!947!Adam.Stein > INET: Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Geez, the summary says it all. :-( I'm still using a 1200 baud Prometheus Promodem, which so far for the last two years has been great for everything from UNIXs to Compu$erve and any miscellaneous bulliten board (from Apple //c to the Macintosh). This prelude is mentioned because America Online will *not* download to my modem! I haven't had time to really delve into the details, but it seems strange. *NOTHING* downloads. Online itself comes through, albiet slowly, and sometimes I wonder *what* it's doing, because the Transmit light on the modem (or the Receive) aren't doing anything, but the Online program is sitting there doing nothing, then drawing text that was already written in the little documents. Argh. I had really high hopes for this service, and hope that I can fix my downloading problem. For the price, (and my uses so far of online services) it seems fairly nice. I *like* the interface, but haven't had time to explore it all that much. I *hated* the registration setup, mainly because it was *so* slow, and once sat there for twenty minutes before doing anything. :-( Roger rre@ihlpn.ATT.COM
bob@accuvax.nwu.edu (Bob Hablutzel) (11/17/89)
In article <29969.2562DE85@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Stein) writes: >What does everyone think of America OnLine? >I think it has a great interface like MacNet but seems to have a lot more >information than MacNet and has more general sections like an Encyclopedia >and conferencing and other stuff found on Compuserve. I have only used it >twice but it seemed VERY SLOW. Has anyone else had speed problems. I am >using a 2400 Hayes modem but the speed doesn't seem to be the modem >transfer time but simply their system responding to the America Online >software. Any comments? >Adam Stein I've been using AOL for a few weeks now, and I'm quite happy with it. I've used CIS, Prodigy, FidoNet, AppleLink, and the InterNet, and think that AOL has a good blend of the best of all of them. (I am somewhat biased, of course, as I was invited to join by one of the forum leaders). I've had problems with the speed, but it's not the usual; I usually find it to reasonable quick, though not snappy, and file transfers in particular can be slow. (I'm using 1200 baud, though). There are points in the interface that need improvement, though. For example, it would nice to use the arrow keys to move from message to message on the bulletin boards. Hopefully we'll see that kind of improvement in the next version. > >-- >Adam Stein via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH >UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!107!947!Adam.Stein >INET: Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG Bob Hablutzel BOB@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU RIP Wildwood Software (not dead, just in a coma...)
mck@beach.cis.ufl.edu (Mark Kilby) (11/17/89)
Adam Stein writes: >What does everyone think of America OnLine? > ... I have only used it twice but it seemed VERY SLOW. Yes, I have noticed the same problem. I perfer AO's interface to Compuserve Navigator's, but then I have not used either extensively. All in all, AO looks promising. Mark Kilby mck@beach.cis.ufl.edu
grobbins@brin.cis.upenn.edu (Grobbins) (11/18/89)
In article <29969.2562DE85@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Stein) writes: >What does everyone think of America OnLine? Their offer of a free trial turns out to be "before you use the service, give us your credit card number, read these pages of fine print, and be careful not to go over two hours or call at the wrong time else you'll be billed." No thanks. Prodigy may be a slug, but they at least have the right approach to providing what should someday be a universal service. Grobbins grobbins@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
wscott@EN.ECN.PURDUE.EDU (Wayne H Scott) (11/18/89)
I have one question. :)
What IS America Online?
From the previous messages it sounds very interesting but I have never
heard anything about it. Could someone send a description, how much it
cost, how to I join, etc...
Is it mentioned in some current mags I could look up?
_______________________________________________________________________________
Wayne Scott | INTERNET: wscott@en.ecn.purdue.edu
Electrical Engineering | BITNET: wscott%ea.ecn.purdue.edu@purccvm
Purdue University | UUCP: {purdue, pur-ee}!en.ecn.purdue.edu!wscottwwtaroli@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Bill Taroli) (11/18/89)
I have been online a number of times recently and have found that the facilities offered are good, but since navigation through the system can get confusing and because of the high number of facilities offered.. one can find themselves lost, if you will. I understand that the interface (navigation) has already been worked on, but I would personally suggest that more be done to improve the efficiency of the entire windowing setup. Bill Taroli WWTAROLI@RODAN.acs.syr.edu
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (11/19/89)
As quoted from <29969.2562DE85@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> by Adam.Stein@f947.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Stein): +--------------- | twice but it seemed VERY SLOW. Has anyone else had speed problems. I am | using a 2400 Hayes modem but the speed doesn't seem to be the modem | transfer time but simply their system responding to the America Online | software. Any comments? +--------------- AOL customer support has posted a message (on AOL) stating in regards to speed that they underestimated the demand on the host computers; they are in the process of adding more and faster processors to rectify the problem. They are also redesigning the bulletin boards (IMHO, a good idea -- the current one is one of those designs that looks good on paper but kills test pilots ;-) and making other changes. Stay tuned. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery allbery@NCoast.ORG, BALLBERY (MCI Mail), ALLBERY (Delphi) uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp *(comp.sources.misc mail to comp-sources-misc[-request]@backbone.site, please)* *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)* expnet.all: Experiments in *net management and organization. Mail me for info.
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (11/19/89)
I've been beta testing America Online for over a year and have never had ANY problem downloading (or uploading). I've used Hayes, Avatex, and another new modem I'm testing I can't talk about, and also used a Mac Plus and a IIcx. I've used Telenet and Tymnet. The speed problems are a recent phemomenon caused by so many new Mac users coming on all at once. Some fixes are already in place and more are to come. Unlike CI$, AOL does RLL data compression on both ULs and DLs, further speeding things up. By using a trick, you can even chat or read the boards while DLing. Try THAT on CI$! And you can have several forums open at once in their own windows. CI$ is for IBM lovers, AOL is for Mac lovers! -R
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (11/19/89)
Yeah, but CompuServe has the same scheme - credit card first, THEN your trial period/free time. But perhaps America Online should have used Prodigy's style of signup offer. I saw a Prodigy demo at a user group meeting this week. From that, I can see why they HAVE to make such a generous offer! They were having problems giving Prodigy to Mac users, much less charging for it! :) But for $10 per month, I guess you can't complain, if you don't need the file libraries, live chats, real Mac interface, and other services AOL offers. -R
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (11/19/89)
Bill Taroli, re navigation in AOL: Once you find the forums and other areas you like, just use the Customize Go To menu option. You can then go straight to any area via a command key or menu selection. You can still navigate through the folders if you please. I haven't seen any other service that makes it so easy to get around, but then this one has a full Mac interface. -R
rsvp@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (R. Scott V. Paterson) (11/21/89)
If the mail system could send and receive mail to/from other networks, this service would probably be the best around for macs. I'm not sure I'm going to stay with it... If it's in the works, I'll gladly pay my bill. -rsvp
jsp@key.COM (James Preston) (11/21/89)
In article <1385@rodan.acs.syr.edu> wwtaroli@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Bill Taroli) writes: >I have been online a number of times recently and have found that the >facilities offered are good, but since navigation through the system can >get confusing and because of the high number of facilities offered.. one can >find themselves lost, if you will. I hope this doesn't sound derogatory in any way, but how can you get lost? Everywhere you go just opens a new window. All you have to do is keep closing windows, and you get back to the main screen. What could be simpler? I was "lucky" enough to get my free Prodigy time and my free America Online time at about the same, um, time, so it was natural to compare them. I found that Prodigy mostly just annoyed the hell out of me. Not even counting the time it takes to draw all the cute pictures (which get old really fast), I found that trying to get around was downright frustrating. There are, what, two? three? different ways to navigate? And they don't look or work at all the same. I wanted to back up an "item" on my path, and couldn't find any way to do it other than going all the way through and back around again. That thing with the "menus" is supposed to be able to get me anywhere, but it never seemed to get me to the same opening screens as those I got following my path. Grrr. America Online, on the other hand, as has been mentioned, is totally Mac-like. You really don't need any documentation, just click where you want to go, and follow the windows back to see where you've been My only (small) complaint is that it's a little _too_ hierarchical; I get a little tired of having to go down six windows before getting to the substance. My advice is: If you have a Mac (and you like the interface) take America Online over Prodigy. --James Preston
gall@yunexus.UUCP (Norm Gall) (11/21/89)
rsvp@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (R. Scott V. Paterson) writes: |If the mail system could send and receive mail to/from other networks, |this service would probably be the best around for macs. My sentiments exactly! |I'm not sure I'm going to stay with it... If it's in the works, |I'll gladly pay my bill. I asked them this myself, but they replied that 'they have no intention of implementing that now--maybe in the future.' I think I'll write them off. nrg -- "Philosophy is not the underlabourer of the sciences but rather their tribunal; it adjudicates not the truth of scientific theorizing, but the sense of scientific propositions." -- PMS Hacker
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) (11/21/89)
In article <1249@key.COM> jsp@penguin.key.COM (James Preston) writes: > > My advice is: If you have a Mac (and you like the interface) take America > Online over Prodigy. You're right that Prodigy has some real disadvantages: it's slow, the interface is very "un-Mac like", and it doesn't offer file downloading. However, considering the price difference between it and America Online, I'll take Prodigy. Since I'm paying a flat rate per month, I'm not that concerned about speed. The interface I can live with. As for file downloading: comp.source.mac, Fidonet file requests, and Mac BBS's provide me with anything I'd ever want. ----------------------------------------------------- Michael Connick mec@mtfmi.ATT.COM 201-957-3057 AT&T Bell Labs MT 3F-113 (Dept. 79153)
rsvp@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (R. Scott V. Paterson) (11/22/89)
In article <5297@yunexus.UUCP> gall@yunexus.UUCP writes: > >|If the mail system could send and receive mail to/from other networks, >|this service would probably be the best around for macs. > >My sentiments exactly! > >I asked them this myself... I asked them as well through their email system. When I first signed on they said that you could send questions to customer support and they would get back to you within 48 hours. It's been a few weeks and I have not received any news. I'll probably terminate my membership at the end of this month. -rsvp
vossron@Apple.COM (Ronald N. Voss) (11/22/89)
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) writes: >However, considering the price difference between it and America >Online, I'll take Prodigy. Since I'm paying a flat rate per month, I'm >not that concerned about speed. First, I'm not a fan of CI$. I was really excited by Portal's flat $10 rate when it came out. I signed right up. After a year, I found that in my case, I paid much more to Portal in that year than I *ever* paid to CI$ in a year. Yes, I had the option of hanging online to Portal for hours and hours; I just never did it. I still hate having the CI$ meter running while I use it. Ron Voss My own opinions.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (11/22/89)
In article <1249@key.COM> jsp@key.COM (James Preston) writes: > My advice is: If you have a Mac (and you like the interface) take America > Online over Prodigy. I tried America Online (as part of its free trial offer). The interface is really good, although you can get lost if you close all your windows. Also, windows tend to accumulate fast, but they have an option to close all windows except the front. I like the fact that you could be in a chat room and still be doing other things at the same time. There are some anomalies in the interface. They have this customr service area, in which you don't accumulate connect time, but you also can't navigate that area very easily. Posting a message to a bulletin board is a bit confusing. I almost didn't sign up because they put the burden on you to keep track of your connect time, and you had to provide a credit card number. The way the offer was worded, it was supposed to be a benefit to them to have people try out the system, yet they made it hard for people to do so. I ended up cancelling my account. The main problem for me was that the Macintosh-specific areas aren't quite up to speed yet. America Online has been available to Apple II users (as AppleLink Personal Edition) for a while, but I get the impression that the Mac version isn't "officially" available yet. (Hence the trial offer.) There aren't very many Mac users on line right now, so it wasn't worthwhile for me. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Object Specialist Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1
wasilko@netcom.UUCP (Jeff Wasilko) (11/22/89)
In article <5329@internal.Apple.COM> lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >In article <1249@key.COM> jsp@key.COM (James Preston) writes: >> My advice is: If you have a Mac (and you like the interface) take >America >> Online over Prodigy. > >I tried America Online (as part of its free trial offer). The interface >is really good, although you can get lost if you close all your windows. >Also, windows tend to accumulate fast, but they have an option to close >all windows except the front. I like the fact that you could be in a chat >room and still be doing other things at the same time. > >There are some anomalies in the interface. They have this customr service >area, in which you don't accumulate connect time, but you also can't >navigate that area very easily. Posting a message to a bulletin board is >a bit confusing. > >I almost didn't sign up because they put the burden on you to keep track >of your connect time, and you had to provide a credit card number. The ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ America Online's free (no-charge) area has a billing section where the current bill is displayed. THe current bill is accurate up to your previous logon and includes any upload credits.. Jeff Wasilko
baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) (11/22/89)
In article <5329@internal.Apple.COM>, lsr@Apple (Larry Rosenstein) writes: >I almost didn't sign up because they put the burden on you to keep track >of your connect time, and you had to provide a credit card number. The >way the offer was worded, it was supposed to be a benefit to them to have >people try out the system, yet they made it hard for people to do so. This is what turned me off as well. After getting the "You're a member of a select group, we'd like you to test this system for us" offer, I was surprised to see that they wanted a credit card number up front and would give you a couple of hours of free time before they started charging. I figured if they were so interested in my opinion, they should have just given me a login and password that worked for 2 or 3 hours of connect time, and after that made a pitch to me online to sign up. I have no problem giving CIS my credit card up front, because at least I know what I'm getting into. But for a new service with who knows what in the libraries and an untested interface -- no way. -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." baumgart@esquire.dpw.com | cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
ric@netcom.UUCP (Richard Bretschneider) (11/22/89)
mec@cbnewsj.ATT.COM (michael.e.connick) writes: (Stuff about disadvantages of Prodigy deleted.) >However, considering the price difference between it and America >Online, I'll take Prodigy. Since I'm paying a flat rate per month, I'm >not that concerned about speed. The interface I can live with. As for >file downloading: comp.source.mac, Fidonet file requests, and Mac BBS's >provide me with anything I'd ever want. Speed is still an issue for me, even though I'm not paying money for the extra time Prodigy takes, I can feel myself growing older waiting for their little ads to redraw at the bottom of EVERY page of an article I'm reading. And the fact that if I want to keep an article (for furture or offline reference) I have to print it! Sorry, tcomm is supposed to be the vanguard of the paperless office, this is a step backward, at 40 characters per line no less! Yes, I realize that these limitations are there to support (respectively) the cheap cost of the system, the copyright of the authors, and older Dinosaur-64 type machines. They do not support me however. I'll not be continuing my Free subscription (nor do I expect to use it much through the remaining intro period.) Not angry, just convinced. -- Richard A. Bretschneider These are my words. My employer's Ric Bret words are often spoken in haste, and RAB rarely resemble my compassionate prose.
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (11/23/89)
In article <4464@netcom.UUCP> wasilko@netcom.UUCP (Jeff Wasilko) writes: > bill is displayed. THe current bill is accurate up to your previous > logon and includes any upload credits.. Sorry for the confusion. It is very easy on America Online to find out how much connect time you have used in the current month. My complaint was that the original offer was pitched as an opportunity to help them evaluate their system, but in reality it was no different than signing up for the service on my own. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Object Specialist Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1
outer@sq.sq.com (Richard Outerbridge) (11/23/89)
A.O.L. sure does sound neat, but outside of the U.S. the extra user-pay communication tolls make it more expensive than any other service on the market - including CI$. If it's as slow as everyone says those charges would get VERY painful VERY quickly. For the time being Canadians are S.O.L. w.r.t. A.O.L.
ebm@ibmarc.uucp (Eli Messinger) (12/01/89)
Russ Armadillo Coffman... > Yeah, but CompuServe has the same scheme - credit card first, THEN your > trial period/free time... Yes, I thought this was rather offensive... especially when coupled with the come-on about helping them "test" out a new system. When I called them to ask why they required the credit card first, they fumbled out some explanation about having to worry about people who went over their free-time period. I asked why they couldn't simply have the account shut down after the free-time, and they had no real answer. At least, not one they wanted to admit. ("Well, see, our marketing people realized that we have a lot better chance of getting you as a paying customer if we've already got the billing for your account set up..."). -- "The real test of an artist, of course, is not whether you can see each blade of grass, but whether the eyes follow you across the room." --Stewart Evans CSNET: ebm@ibm.com / UUCP: ...!uunet!ibmarc!ebm / BITNET: ebm@almvma.bitnet
fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) (12/05/89)
I posted the following to America Online's suggestions board a few days ago, and haven't heard a reply yet. Netters may be interested. Suggestions after two hours of use: 1) Cache menus and (optionally) documents on the user's Mac. Caching menus should be a selectable option. Whenever viewing a document, a user should be given the option of saving it. Whenever the user returns to a previously cached menu or document, the user's Mac sends the dateline of the cached file back to AO with the request, and AO responds either "up-to-date" or with the updated document (even better, a diff file). The datelines of files and menus should be the first line. This would have saved me about 20 minutes of those two hours, and a lot of irritation. 2) Implement a binary file transfer protocol and stop binhexing stuffed files. Binhexing adds 33% to the length of a file. 3) Provide a picture of the tree of menus somewhere. 4) (more a complaint) Speed up stock quotes. I could look them up in the Times faster than asking for them on Stocklink. 5) Provide usenet news, at least comp.sys.mac and comp.binaries.mac. I have it at work, but lots of people don't. Mark internet: fulk@cs.rochester.edu America Online: MarkFulk
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/07/89)
Mark Fulk: Don't quite understand what you mean about "cached menus." Do you mean returning to a point you were at earlier? If you leave windows open as you navigate, use the Windows menu to go directly to any previous window. If you have places you visit regularly, just add them to your personal Go To menu - then you can go anywhere with a Command-N. What's relly nice about AOL is that you don't have to "leave" one area to go to another - and you can return instantly to any area(s). You can take part in a chat while reading messages in another forum, etc. Using an undocumented trick, you can even download a file while chatting - impossible on any other service. "Whenever viewing a document, a user should be given the option of saving it." To save any doc you're viewing, just use Save or Save As... for more options. America Online DOES support binary file transfer. I haven't seen a single BinHexed file there, in fact. Not only that, AOL does a RLL data compression on both upload and download. This saves time and money, and while not as efficient as some of the options in StuffIt, works well enough on short files that you might as well not bother to use StuffIt at all, unless you're also combining files, too. There's a file in ForumLink/Forum News that explains and demonstrates this graphically - a 23K file that transfers in about 10 seconds. I cheated and put a lot 0's in the middle of the file so it compresses a lot, but it demonstrates the concept. Ya gotta wonder why no one else has ever done this. I agree a picture of the tree would be nice. At least if you forget a path, you can always navigate Mac-style - with other services, you GOTTA know the commands, and you gotta leave the area you're in to get somewhere else - then reverse the process to get back. For more information, see Help under the Apple menu. AFL RussC
fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) (12/07/89)
Gee, I downloaded a bunch of binhexed files the other night. I didn't use a stopwatch, so I'm not sure what my throughput was. But if the download program uses RLL, that will help. I'd rather have a straight binary download of stuffit files, since running a simple compression on a stuffed file will usually not conserve much, and generally lengthens the file by a small amount. Caching menus: most of the time, when I explore, I close menus when I'm done with them. Then, if I return (perhaps on another session, perhaps later the same session) the menu is re-downloaded. That results in a wait. As for documents, there are lots that I don't want to save in my own folders; they are, for example, instructions or guidebooks. If those were automatically cached in the AO folder, then returning to them would be quick. I don't think, by the way, that if I save a document, then return to it _in AO_, that the saved copy is used to update my screen. In other words, it is still downloaded. This is a pain for the StockLink instructions, for example. Mark
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/09/89)
Mark Fulk: Ah, now I see what you mean about "cached menus ' - the lists of options you see when you select something. Well, unless you deliberately close them, they ARE "cached" - just don't close the window. If you want to return to that menu (window), just use the Windows" menu and back you go instantly. Simple. Re BinHexed files: If any are there, it's because the uploader didn't know any better, not because of any requirement of America Online. You left readers here with the impression that BinHexing was required, obviously not the case. This is the only place that requires BinHexing, to my knowledge. -AFL RussC <--- my primary AO screen name
fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) (12/10/89)
The person who responded to my last posting on this issue still misses the point about caching files and menus: First of all, one has to download the menus at session startup. They change very rarely, so I don't really see why that is necessary. If the latest version were on my disk, I could even use the AO software (with easy mods) to look at old stuff I had saved. If I choose an option that hadn't been saved, the program could bug me to sign on. I don't want my screen full of little, indistinguishable menus that I have to select from to navigate. I always close a window when I exit it, in order to avoid that. However, if I want to return to the same menu later, I have to wait for it to download. Please don't force me into choosing between two lousy alternatives: a screen full of menus or slowed-down navigation. Also don't tell me about keywords; I understand how they work, but given that there is no menu of them, I will not remember more than the very few I use most frequently. I'd also rather mouse around than type. Caching files such as help documents is even more to the point, as they take longer to download. Using a folder structure that echoes the AO menu structure would be particularly nice; one wouldn't have to make on-the-fly decisions about where to put files and it would still be easy to find them after a session. (This not so much for help files as for, say, news stories.) Furthermore, if one later found oneself writing mail about a news story, say, it would be quick to retrieve it. The primary cost to the user would be the need to occasionally clean house of old files. Your point about binhexed files is well-taken. I hope that someone occasionally checks and un-binhexes binhexed uploaded files. The AO interface is really very nice. I don't know of any other online service that is close to as good, so please take my proposals in the spirit in which they are intended. On the other hand, DON'T REST ON YOUR LAURELS. There are some relatively minor adjustments that would make the service a lot nicer. In particular, I hope that noone is putting off such changes in order to keep people signed in longer, paying the (fortunately, very good) connect time price. That would be short-sighted; the loss of customers to irritation would exceed the gain of fees from longer sessions. AO name: MarkFulk
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/11/89)
Mark Fulk: >First of all, one has to download the menus at session startup. They change >very rarely, so I don't really see why that is necessary. If the latest versio n >were on my disk, I could even use the AO software (with easy mods) to look at >old stuff I had saved. If I choose an option that hadn't been saved, the >program could bug me to sign on. (Lurkers: Mark doesn't mean the Mac menus at the top of the screen, he's talking about windows that contain lists, aka "menus.") Just use the keywords, in which case menus aren't needed at all (until you reach an area like a forum - they are needed then :) ). Note that no other service "caches" menus, either. But on other services, current menus disappears when you move forward. With AO, you have the choice of leaving "menus" (windows displaying lists of choices, usually navigation choices) open. Thus, if you go to the Developer's Forum after being in the Utilities Forum, you can return instantly to Utilities by clicking on its window or choosing it from the Windows menu. With any other service, you must leave one area to get to another - with the meter running! To get back where you were, same problem. Not so on AO. If you want to close the windows, that is your choice. Generally they reload faster than you can read them or decide what to do anyway, so it's probably OK to close the windows. It's not uncommon for us to be chatting in one Forum (each has a regularly scheduled weekly chat) when a question comes up about a file or message in another. With AO, you can go to another forum and get the answer without ever leaving the chat! Thus I see their scheme as a GREAT advance over other IBM-oriented text menu (non-window) services. Summary: the choice of remembered menus is left to the user. Leaving lots of windows open is not really a problem, as most are hidden by new windows anyway. Further, there are commands to close all, all but the top, or clean up all windows if you choose. I prefer leaving 'em all open for the instant navigation that offers. >I don't want my screen full of little, indistinguishable menus that I have >to select from to navigate. Why not? As stated above, sure beats memorizing IBM-type commands, and sure beats being forced to leave one area to visit another, as on GEnie or CI$. Here's a tip, though - instead of entering a number or letter and hitting RETURN or ENTER to select it as with most other services, use the Up and Down arrows to highlight a menu, then just hit RETURN or ENTER. You can also just double-click a list item, of course. As with any good Mac application, you have several ways to do things. >Caching files such as help documents is even more to the point, as they take >longer to download. The Help file is ALREADY offline. Select Help from the Apple menu or use Command-/. Additional help can be found in the "Service" area, which is FREE. >...I hope that noone is putting off such changes in order to keep people >signed in longer, paying the (fortunately, very good) connect time price. To the contrary, see the AO VP's comments you can access from the splash screen. And changes are much easier than with other services - they can change the way messages work at their end without you needing new SW. Compare that with CI$: they've known for two years that CI$ Navigator will not keep up at 2400 baud on a Plus or SE (text only, DLs do transfer at full speed), yet have made no changes. The result - a windfall for them paid for by all us Plus and SE users with 2400 baud modems. There is supposed to be a "test area" on AO where you can try out the new messaging scheme and make comments. When's the last time CI$ did anything like that? :) The Mac has spoiled people. If it takes more than an hour to master something new, they complain. Remember how long it took to master CI$ or GEnie when you first started using them - if you ever did master them completely. AO is to online services as the Mac is to IBM. It's like being in online heaven. You should be proficient the first day. If not, just browse. At 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of most other services, you can at last afford to. -Russ (AFL RussC, ForumLink Forum Leader, pardon my enthusiasm)
fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) (12/12/89)
Once again, the AO people on this net have completely missed the point. I have been fairly polite in the past, but I am getting tired of this, and will allow myself to flame a bit here. Incidentally, I wouldn't bother if I though that AO was a bad service; I'd just unsubscribe and forget it. I LIKE the service, but I get consistently irritated at some of its misfeatures. I've put a couple of hours of Consider that I am an AO user, having spent about three hours on it; I am a computer scientist who has been WORKING (not just taking classes) in the field since 1969, when I was 17, and have adapted to several dozen different (and often weird) systems in the past (list on demand). In short, I am not a naive person, especially when it comes to user interfaces. Furthermore, caching, which seems to have been a brand new word to you all, has been a current concept in computer science since Alan Turing. You missed the point. It's hard for me to believe that anyone could miss such a simple point, but you did. You seem to have wired somewhere into your brains a simple model of how people will use your system. It doesn't fit me, and I bet it won't fit a lot of other people. All of your responses are aimed at someone who works like your model: someone who logs on to use one or two services, without a lot of switching around, or uses the service very frequently, and doesn't mind typing keywords. Consider: the most frequent complaint that people have about AO (oft repeated right here in comp.sys.mac by other people than me) is that it is SLOW. This complaint has been acknowledged by AO management, which is promising more computers and other upgrades to speed up the service. The "America Online Update" by some executive vice president of AO spends several paragraphs on just this issue. Now anyone with more than a smidgen of background in computer user interfaces knows that people don't complain much about the speed of operations they EXPECT to be slow; so people won't complain about the speed of downloading files or of downloading a long news article as often as they will about accessing a menu. People are also willing to put up with a limited number of long waits; most things have to be fast or they will complain, but the speed of an occasional slow thing is not crucial. This is all basic user interface knowledge, reported in the all the usual human factors literature, with an occasional survey in Communications of the ACM, and confirmed by tons of experience of lots of people. Telling people that they are "spoiled by the Mac" is not only offensive and ineffective, it is also very much beside the point. So what solution suggests itself? Storing the menus on the user's Mac is clearly needed. You want to make updating changes transparent, so some sort of modification-date driven caching scheme is clearly necessary. If you don't get understand the argument, retake (or take for the first time) the undergraduate course in computer organization. Now the flames will get especially hot: I am sick of reading replies to articles by people who clearly didn't read the entire article. The last posting by an AOer repeated claims that had clearly been addressed in the article he replied to; he, of course, failed to include those parts. I am also sick of being told that my problem is that I am not just like you, and if I would just see the light and start behaving like you want me to, everything would be just hunky-dory. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. One of your users just gave you very explicit and clear instructions on how to make your service more usable to him. It's a good bet, especially given the complaints that people make about speed, that a bunch of other people would appreciate the changes. They are not even hard changes to make. And your consistent response is to tell this guy to jump in a lake, he doesn't understand your system, he should be doing things your way, etc. etc. Don't you see how offensive you have been? Didn't anyone tell you how to deal with a customer? Mark Fulk
alh@pyrnova (Alan Holzman) (12/12/89)
Just to give equal time : Connect (formerly MacNET) has been around for two years now, is also a macintosh interface w/ user friendly navigation ... menus etc. Connect is already supported by many of the leading mac companies w/ forums (ala CI$). Here in the bay area, BMUG has an active forum w/ Libraries of files, a bbs and a tech support area. The Connect pricing is also $ 4 off & $ 8 peak per hour @ 2400. This is also a fine on-line service and worth a check for those of you looking at new/other alternatives to the awkward, expensive CI$ & GEnie. There is also a UNIX forum on Connect ... Prodigy ... don't bother. Enjoy ... Al Holzman | Internet = alh@pyrnova.pyramid.com Pyramid Technology Corp. | UUCP = pyramid!pyrnova!alh 1295 Charleston Road | CONNECT = AlHolzman Mt. View, CA. 94043 | (415) 335-8951
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/13/89)
Mark Fulk: Sorry I misunderstood your terminology re "cached," which you define as "stored on disk." I always thought that term meant a temporary storage area, as in disk and RAM caches. :) "So what solution suggests itself? Storing the menus on the user's Mac is clearly needed." Unfortunately, this would do away with one of AO's main features: the ability to dynamically change the way screens look. AO can even change the name, number, and locations of buttons in dialogs. New ones appear all the time, almost daily, as improvements are made and new services are added. Eenter keyword "time," ferinstance. And they recently added a "Help" button in the keyword dialog. There are other features, like business association members, that only members see. But since you were at a disadvantage in not knowing this, your criticisms were understandable. :) Check out all the "My Navigator won't update" messages on CI$ for lots of good reasons to use dynamic features. The split seconds it takes to send new features pay off in ease and speed of use, not to mention confusion and error. I certainly see why some would like "cached" (stored on disk) menus, window definitions, and controls. But then some would complain about having to DL the changes to existing windows and new features, especially if they used AO from different Macs (at home and work, ferinstance). Some people complain about MacNet's "receiving new picture," ferinstance. The whole world's a trade-off, eh? :) "I am also sick of being told that my problem is that I am not just like you, and if I would just see the light and start behaving like you want me to, everything would be just hunky-dory." Exactly why I took the time to emphasize that there are, "as in any good Mac application, several ways of doing things" in AO. You have choices - don't "jump in the lake," use them! I'm not in customer service or sales, just a user like you for most of the board except for the small area I maintain. Customer service could stand improvement, that I will acknowledge (that's true of just about everyone these days, though). Enjoy, -Russ
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/13/89)
Alan Holzman, While MacNet only charges $4 offpeak and $8 peak per hour, they also have a surcharge based on the number of bytes transferred. This can make MacNet almost as expensive as CI$. America Online has no such surcharge.-Russ
fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) (12/14/89)
>"So what solution suggests itself? Storing the menus on the user's Mac is >clearly needed." Unfortunately, this would do away with one of AO's main >features: the ability to dynamically change the way screens look. AO can >these days, though). Enjoy, -Russ Once again, you didn't read the whole posting. Caching means storing the most recent version on disk, AS RETRIEVED FROM AMERICA ONLINE. This does not mean permanently storing menus. The cache must be kept up-to-date; the current buzzword for this notion is "coherent memory". The algorithm is simplicity itself: WHEN the user calls up item-name DO IF an item with name item-name is in a file THEN SEND <"IS" item-name "DATED" item-date "CURRENT?"> to america-online; GET ao-message FROM america-online; IF ao-message = <"UPDATE" item-name "DATE" new-date "INFO" update-info> THEN apply update info to the file of the item; set date of the file of the item to new-date; ELSE (*message is "ITEM" item-name "UP-TO-DATE"*) DO NOTHING; END IF ELSE (*no version on disk*) SEND <"SENDME" item-name> to america-online; GET item FROM america-online; WRITE item in a file; END IF DISPLAY item from its file; END WHEN Floppy-only systems only send SENDME messages, and never store items on the disk. The choice is a preference item. There is a second version of the algorithm which would work better if turnaround to the AO computers is poor: When the user signs on, send the creation dates of all the menus and most-used on-line files. When a menu or file gets updated, broadcast the news to the machines of all those people who are logged on. When a user requests a menu or frequently-used file, his computer would know whether or not it is up-to-date, and wouldn't have to have a conversation with AO to establish the case. In other cases, the previous algorithm is used. This would lengthen the sign-on process by several seconds, but, since it is long anyway, that won't matter much. Mark
bruceh@mentor.com (Bruce Holm) (12/14/89)
From article <94311@pyramid.pyramid.com>, by alh@pyrnova (Alan Holzman): > > Just to give equal time : > > Connect (formerly MacNET) has been around for two years now, is also > a macintosh interface w/ user friendly navigation ... menus etc. Connect is > already supported by many of the leading mac companies w/ forums (ala CI$). > Here in the bay area, BMUG has an active forum w/ Libraries of files, a bbs > and a tech support area. The Connect pricing is also $ 4 off & $ 8 peak per > hour @ 2400. This is also a fine on-line service and worth a check for those > of you looking at new/other alternatives to the awkward, expensive CI$ & GEnie. > There is also a UNIX forum on Connect ... > > Prodigy ... don't bother. > > Enjoy ... > > Al Holzman | Internet = alh@pyrnova.pyramid.com > Pyramid Technology Corp. | UUCP = pyramid!pyrnova!alh > 1295 Charleston Road | CONNECT = AlHolzman > Mt. View, CA. 94043 | (415) 335-8951 How does Connect compare with America Online? The price looks the same except AO requires a minimum useage of 1 hr/month at $6. If Connect only charges for what you use and still has the Mac interface, this sounds like a better deal. How extensive are the services and libraries on Connect? How does one subscribe? Is there a setup fee? Thanks for any info. --Bruce Holm -- ** These are my opinions, & not necessarily those of Mentor Graphics Corp. ** Bruce Holm, Design/Analysis Div. / (503) 626-7000 Mentor Graphics Corp. / USENET: bruceh@pdx.MENTOR.COM Beaverton, OR 97005-7191 / UUCP: ...!{sequent,tessi,apollo}!mntgfx!bruceh
alh@pyrnova (Alan Holzman) (12/14/89)
In article <24942@cup.portal.com> Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) writes: > >While MacNet only charges $4 offpeak and $8 peak per hour, they also have a >surcharge based on the number of bytes transferred. This can make MacNet >almost as expensive as CI$. I wish that Russ had simply sent me a personal email, rather than posting a silly response like this on the net ... unlike Russ, I have NO affiliation whatsoever with Connect (the new name for MacNET). I am only a satisfied user that wanted to suggest another on-line service to new users that may not be aware of Connect. Judging by the many requests I've received for a phone number and information (all of which I answered via email) I guess there are enough people interested. I will NOT post a number on the net. If Connect are doing a good job, one of their people will see this thread and respond appropriately ... As to his specific point, that surcharge does exist and is very small. Even for an active downloader/uploader like myself, it has never been more than an additional dollar or so per month. Connect does not have a monthly minimum as CI$ and AOL do. Hopefully this will be the last competitive discussion in this thread. Al Holzman | Internet = alh@pyrnova.pyramid.com Pyramid Technology Corp. | UUCP = pyramid!pyrnova!alh 1295 Charleston Road | CONNECT = AlHolzman Mt. View, CA. 94043 | Compuserve = 76665,3406 (415) 335-8951 | FAX (415) 967-4344
LaserMan@cup.portal.com (Bob LaserMan Murrow) (12/15/89)
As to his specific point, that surcharge does exist and is very small Even for an active downloader/uploader like myself, it has never been more th an additional dollar or so per month. Connect does not have a monthly minimum as CI$ and AOL do. Hopefully this will be the last competitive discussion in this thread. Al Holzman | Internet = alh@pyrnova.pyramid.com Pyramid Technology Corp. | UUCP = pyramid!pyrnova!alh ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Al, I got a $60 bill from them that was mostly surchares, that was the LAST month I used CONNECT. It is important to point out to people that there are HIDDEN costs on that service. It costs more to use than CI$! if your not careful. Bob
Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) (12/15/89)
Mark, I read your entire article. I suggest you submit your code to AO. Its worth, versus the current method, will be determined by what they pay you for it. -Russ
jsp@key.COM (James Preston) (12/16/89)
In article <24941@cup.portal.com> Armadillo@cup.portal.com (Russ Armadillo Coffman) writes: >Mark Fulk: > >"So what solution suggests itself? Storing the menus on the user's Mac is >clearly needed." Unfortunately, this would do away with one of AO's main >features: the ability to dynamically change the way screens look. . . Fade in: Mark is sitting in front of his Mac. He double clicks on the _America OnLine_ icon and goes through the connect procedures. He then clicks to go into the "current news" area. Mark's Mac says to the America OnLine main computer, "Hi, George, this guy's going into "current news". I've got a menu here for that area that was last updated on 12/3/89." The AOL computer responds, "Sorry, Mac, that menu was just changed again last night. These humans are always changing their minds. Here comes the new one." The receive light blinks furiously on Marks modem. Mark's Mac says to the AOL computer, "Got it, George, thanks. Uh oh, he's moving again; guess he didn't want to go there after all. Now he's heading for the software library. My menu for that is current as of 11/23/89." "No problem there," answers the AOL computer, "that menu hasn't change in three months." Fade out. Imagine. A world where software does something intelligent. Gues this just proves that you can't have software that is smarter than the human that wrote it. >"I am also sick of being told that my problem is that I am not just like >you, and if I would just see the light and start behaving like you want me >to, everything would be just hunky-dory." Exactly why I took the time to >emphasize that there are, "as in any good Mac application, several ways of >doing things" in AO. You have choices - don't "jump in the lake," use them! > >I'm not in customer service or sales, just a user like you for most of the >board except for the small area I maintain. Yes, but you did keep telling him to use keywords after he repeatedly said he didn't want to use keywords. You posted a lengthy message telling him how great it works for you when you do things your way. You did not address his complaints, you told him to change the way he worked. I know you were just trying to be helpful, but you remind of that old joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says, "Doctor it hurts when I do this." And the doctor says, "Then don't do that." You expect a doctor to help, not give you obvious advice. And if one is not a doctor, one should not respond to someone's medical complaint, right? --James Preston
ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) (12/16/89)
If turnaround time is slow, then perhaps even better would be to send the date information while the user reading previously sent information. At first, the program could update menus that the user is known to use frequently. Once it has all these, then it can start trying to predict what new menus might be needed. For example, if you are at a particular location ( I don't know the AO terminology, since I've never used AO ), while you are reading the information there, it could be sending the menus for all locations that are linked to that location. Tim Smith
gentrys@ingr.com (Scott Gentry) (12/19/89)
In article <1989Dec11.165834.7605@cs.rochester.edu>, fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes: > Once again, the AO people on this net have completely missed the point. Not all of us. > a naive person, especially when it comes to user interfaces. Furthermore, > caching, which seems to have been a brand new word to you all, has been a > current concept in computer science since Alan Turing. > I'm happy to say that I know exactly what you're talking about and that I agree fully. Caching the menu structure is a logical extension--up to a point. You see, you stumbled upon that point in earlier posts... You will eventually have to sign-on to update your lists. What I and most of the Forum Leaders would really like to see are the old (read those you've seen) items stored locally. This would allow you get only NEW items at login (you would still be able to access old items through the old method). However, downloading the entire structure of all menus/forums/areas is not practical. Practicality... Things change daily, sometimes greatly. Would you want to pay for the two or three hours it might take to update your lists? If I read you correctly, you want the entire system to be downloaded so you can navigate locally. Think about those three hours. A more practical approach is allowing the user to decide which areas he/she wishes to update regularly. > So what solution suggests itself? Storing the menus on the user's Mac > is clearly needed. You want to make updating changes transparent, so > some sort of modification-date driven caching scheme is clearly necessary. > If you don't get understand the argument, retake (or take for the first time) > the undergraduate course in computer organization. Read above, please... > > I am sick of reading replies to articles by people who clearly didn't read > the entire article. The last posting by an AOer repeated claims that had > clearly been addressed in the article he replied to; he, of course, failed > to include those parts. I am also sick of being told that my problem is that > I am not just like you, and if I would just see the light and start behaving > like you want me to, everything would be just hunky-dory. > That's not it at all. Sometimes explaining how things work to people who obviously care enough to complain might help. In this case it didn't. :( > WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. One of your users just gave you very explicit > and clear instructions on how to make your service more usable to him. It's > a good bet, especially given the complaints that people make about speed, that > a bunch of other people would appreciate the changes. They are not even hard > changes to make. And your consistent response is to tell this guy to jump > in a lake, he doesn't understand your system, he should be doing things your > way, etc. etc. Don't you see how offensive you have been? Didn't anyone > tell you how to deal with a customer? > > Mark Fulk I can't speak for Russ, but I can tell you that you've been heard. Please feel free to E-mail me a reply. I'd like to hear all your ideas to see if they are like mine. Remember, the system is still young. People do make mistakes. -- *Scott Gentry |UUCP:uunet!ingr!gentrys | * *Intergraph Corporation |America Online: AFL Scott |I speak for myself * *2051 Mercador Drive |GEnie: W.GENTRY | * *Reston, VA 22091 |CIS:72000,1536 (rarely) | *
jsp@key.COM (James Preston) (12/22/89)
In article <7991@ingr.com> gentrys@ingr.com (Scott Gentry) writes: }In article <1989Dec11.165834.7605@cs.rochester.edu>, fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes: }> Once again, the AO people on this net have completely missed the point. } }Not all of us. }I'm happy to say that I know exactly what you're talking about and that I }agree fully. Caching the menu structure is a logical extension--up to a point. }You see, you stumbled upon that point in earlier posts... You will eventually }have to sign-on to update your lists. What I and most of the Forum Leaders }would really like to see are the old (read those you've seen) items stored }locally. This would allow you get only NEW items at login (you would still be }able to access old items through the old method). However, downloading the }entire structure of all menus/forums/areas is not practical. } }Practicality... Things change daily, sometimes greatly. Would you want to }pay for the two or three hours it might take to update your lists? If I read }you correctly, you want the entire system to be downloaded so you can }navigate locally. Think about those three hours. I'm sorry to say, you don't quite know _exactly_ what he's talking about; close, but no cigar. Who says that just because all of the lists are stored locally that you have to update _all_ of the lists all at once? Is there some inherent reason that the local and AOL-main software couldn't cooperate with each other so that a particular menu or list is only updated when it is used? I already posted a demonstration of this; it's rather trivial. When a menu is called for, the local software just asks the main software if the local copy is uptodate. If not, it's updated; if so, the local copy is used. Sure, this means that you can't operate _entirely_ locally. But you're only sending a few bits to enquire about a date, which is a helluva lot better then sending the entire menu. And even that can be optimized so that the inquiry is only done the first time per session that a menu is requested. --James Preston
gentrys@ingr.com (Scott Gentry) (12/23/89)
In article <1330@key.COM>, jsp@key.COM (James Preston) writes: > In article <7991@ingr.com> gentrys@ingr.com (Scott Gentry) writes: > }In article <1989Dec11.165834.7605@cs.rochester.edu>, fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk) writes: > }> Once again, the AO people on this net have completely missed the point. > } > }Not all of us. > }I'm happy to say that I know exactly what you're talking about and that I > }agree fully. Caching the menu structure is a logical extension--up to a point. > }You see, you stumbled upon that point in earlier posts... You will eventually > }have to sign-on to update your lists. What I and most of the Forum Leaders > }would really like to see are the old (read those you've seen) items stored > }locally. This would allow you get only NEW items at login (you would still be > }able to access old items through the old method). However, downloading the > }entire structure of all menus/forums/areas is not practical. > } > }Practicality... Things change daily, sometimes greatly. Would you want to > }pay for the two or three hours it might take to update your lists? If I read > }you correctly, you want the entire system to be downloaded so you can > }navigate locally. Think about those three hours. > > I'm sorry to say, you don't quite know _exactly_ what he's talking about; > close, but no cigar. Who says that just because all of the lists are stored > locally that you have to update _all_ of the lists all at once? Is there some Nobody. > inherent reason that the local and AOL-main software couldn't cooperate with > each other so that a particular menu or list is only updated when it is used? Nope. But then I didn't design the software. I just use it and generally agree that things could be better, but the current software (Apple II side excluded) has more potential than _any_ of the offerings from the competition. NOTE: I exclude the Apple II side only because its America Online software has not seen major changes since Apple departed. I suspect that this will change in the near future. I do not speak for Quantum in this matter, though. Cacheing menus as you describe is very logical. Hypothetical situation here... What happens when a member goes into forums new files area? I have personally released well over 200 files in one day. Do you think it's practical to have descriptions of files cached, or would limiting the cache to just to library categories suffice? Please note that a major change to the Macintosh entrance to Computing & Software has just taken place. This illustrates the flexibility that was incorporated into the original design. > --James Preston -- *Scott Gentry |UUCP:uunet!ingr!gentrys | * *Intergraph Corporation |America Online: AFL Scott |I speak for myself * *2051 Mercador Drive |GEnie: W.GENTRY | * *Reston, VA 22091 |CIS:72000,1536 (rarely) | *