werner@aecom.yu.edu (Craig Werner) (01/02/90)
In article <1284@marlin.NOSC.MIL>, jbjones@marlin.NOSC.MIL (John B. Jones) writes: > about the Mac interface. With a mac, how do you > > 1. Activate something out of sight (in a sub-folder). Double clicking an object activates its application. I have a lot of dummy files strewn in sub-folders to accomplish this purpose. Another way is to double-click an existing real file, and then close it and continue. It's clumsy, but intuitive (more the former). > 2. Copy something out of sight to the current or another directory. You don't. Even worse, if you're in a subdirectory, sorry - folder, and you switch to another drive, and switch back, it returns you to root, not from where you started. > 3. Redirect the output from one program to another as input; example: > prompt>awk -f fil.awk this | awk -f fix.awk >> that The clipboard. This is painful. Yeachhhhh..... In fact most applications don't think in terms of input and output, they think in terms of "events," some of which might come from the keyboard... > 4. Write batch files(i.e. is there any highlevel, simple programming > feature in the Mac OS?) There is MacroMaker in system 6. Before that you had to go out and buy something (and there are several packages available.) But note that MacroMaker doesn't remember what you clicked, only WHERE you clicked, so if someone else uses the Mac and moves an Icon or window, OR you start up the application in a non-standard way so the desktop is different, the macro fails and cannot be edited. You either have to restore the former state, or rerun it through. ALso, macros don't run in background. You see everything (there's no echo off). And if applications are opened in the macro, the macro might outrace the Mac, and try to click a menu before the menus have actually changed. In this case, the macro mysteriously fails (this is why I try to use keyboard commands in macros as much as possible, but not all Mac commands in most applications can be shadowed by the keyboard.) Also, as far as I can tell, you can't transfer these macros as you would a batch file. In other words, if you need a yes or no answer, the sane answer would probably be "No." It's closer to "not really," or "not as you know them." There is a common one line batch file that I use on Unix. On the Mac, it takes almost a minute, and 17 mouse clicks, all of which time the Mac is frozen (although the "dancing" screen displays impress onlookers. If you hadn't noticed. I hate the Mac. I use it under protest. -- Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 4.5 years down, 2.5 to go) werner@aecom.YU.EDU -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine (1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517) "Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died."
d6maca@dtek.chalmers.se. (Martin Carlberg) (01/02/90)
In article <2701@aecom.yu.edu> werner@aecom.yu.edu (Craig Werner) writes: >In article <1284@marlin.NOSC.MIL>, jbjones@marlin.NOSC.MIL (John B. Jones) writes: >> about the Mac interface. With a mac, how do you >> >> 1. Activate something out of sight (in a sub-folder). > Double clicking an object activates its application. I have a >lot of dummy files strewn in sub-folders to accomplish this purpose. >Another way is to double-click an existing real file, and then close it >and continue. It's clumsy, but intuitive (more the former). This is a problem, but I think it is going to be fixed in 7.0. I double-click an existing real file. It's not that bad, only a few extra clicks. >> 2. Copy something out of sight to the current or another directory. > You don't. Even worse, if you're in a subdirectory, sorry - >folder, and you switch to another drive, and switch back, it returns you >to root, not from where you started. I don't think that was the question, you can't copy anything when you are in the Open/Save dialog. To copy a file in Finder you have to hold down the option key and drag it to another window or icon (if you don't use option the file will be moved instead). Problem occurs as the question says when you can't see the window or icon on the screen. I use two methods to solve this. 1. Increase or move the destination window so I can do a simple drag. 2. Copy to the desktop and then get up the destination window and move the file to it. People use to complain about the 6 zillion windows on the screen, all messed up in a big smog. Nobody could find anything in it. I found out that the new finder (6.1.4 and maybe older) was able to open the "super"-folder (talking OOP) by dubble-click the windowtitle (Use ResEdit and change "Title click" in resource LAYO=128 in the Finder). This and the other new feature "option dubble-click" on a folder to open the new one and close the old, simplifies the work with the finder. The number of windows on the screen can be reduced alot. Funny that option dubble-click on the windowtitle didn't close the current and opened the super-folder (it only opened the super-folder). >> 3. Redirect the output from one program to another as input; example: >> prompt>awk -f fil.awk this | awk -f fix.awk >> that > The clipboard. This is painful. Yeachhhhh..... > In fact most applications don't think in terms of input and >output, they think in terms of "events," some of which might come from >the keyboard... That is correct, applications don't think in terms of input and output. But I can do piping (or whatever you call it) anyway. I use MPW that has very nifty features. Ok, the ordinary Mac user Mr Sven Svensson can't use it because he don't have MPW, but he should almost never use it anyway. >> 4. Write batch files(i.e. is there any highlevel, simple programming >> feature in the Mac OS?) > There is MacroMaker in system 6. Before that you had to go out and [Deleted stuff about how poor MacroMaker is.] > In other words, if you need a yes or no answer, the sane answer >would probably be "No." It's closer to "not really," or "not as you know >them." There is a common one line batch file that I use on Unix. On the >Mac, it takes almost a minute, and 17 mouse clicks, all of which time the >Mac is frozen (although the "dancing" screen displays impress onlookers. Here is where I use MPW again (Thanks Apple for this great shell). I have to say that the MacOS is a little poor on batch files. I have heard that 7.0 will improve the batch possibility in some way!?! > If you hadn't noticed. I hate the Mac. I use it under protest. Yes, I have noticed. It looks like people have different taste, and that is good. I love the Mac. > Craig Werner (future MD/PhD, 4.5 years down, 2.5 to go) > werner@aecom.YU.EDU -- Albert Einstein College of Medicine > (1935-14E Eastchester Rd., Bronx NY 10461, 212-931-2517) > "Never go to a doctor whose office plants have died." PS. I didn't see the original posting so I hope I didn't miss any important. - Martin Carlberg - Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg, Sweden
folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (01/03/90)
"" 1. Activate something out of sight (in a sub-folder).
" Double clicking an object activates its application. I have a
"lot of dummy files strewn in sub-folders to accomplish this purpose.
"Another way is to double-click an existing real file, and then close it
"and continue. It's clumsy, but intuitive (more the former).
The Mac is document-oriented, not application-oriented (I think).
Thus, you create folders with documents in them, and when you want to
process a document, you do not worry about running the appropriate
application, you open the document, and the Mac OS automatically runs the
correct application for you. This is usually quick and intuitive.
But it can create problems (as described above) when you first create your
folder hierarchy, as you often have to place a couple of empty documents
around in order to conveniently bring up a given application.
In Mac OS 7.0, you will be able to place applications in the Apple Menu
(like Desk Accessories presently) and access them with one menu selection.
(Desk Accesories are much like TSRs--always present--without the problems
that I have heard that TSRs have in terms of conflicts. The Apple Menu is
always present at the far left of the menu bar, and you pull this menu down
to access Desk Accessories.)
"" 2. Copy something out of sight to the current or another directory.
" You don't. Even worse, if you're in a subdirectory, sorry -
"folder, and you switch to another drive, and switch back, it returns you
"to root, not from where you started.
I guess my question would be, "For what reason are you doing this copy?"
The reason I ask is that your stated goal (the copy) is difficult on the
Mac. But if that goal is simply a substep in a larger goal, maybe the
Mac can accomplish the larger goal with different substeps.
For example, maybe you want to copy the file to the current directory in
order to edit the copy, using the original as a template. On some systems,
the most logical way would be to copy the file with a command (say,
"cp ../../templates/memos/status status11") and then to edit the file. On
the Mac, one would be prone to start up the word processor, use the "Open"
menu to select the template file, then use "Save As" to save the new
copy to the current directory. Same idea, a little more work (unless you
have a hard time remembering file names, in which case the Mac Open File
dialog, which shows you the file names, might save you time over guessing
and misspelling the file name), but quite different approach.
Still, a Command Line Interface is better suited to this type of "random
file access" than an iconic interface.
>
>> 3. Redirect the output from one program to another as input; example:
>> prompt>awk -f fil.awk this | awk -f fix.awk >> that
> The clipboard. This is painful. Yeachhhhh.....
> In fact most applications don't think in terms of input and
>output, they think in terms of "events," some of which might come from
>the keyboard...
Well, for programmers, Apple has a UNIX-like development (MPW) which has
pipes, redirects, and filters. Again, though, it depends on what you want
to do. For instance, in UNIX you use pipes to do spell checking, which is
built into most wordprocessors on PCs.
The Mac OS doesn't really have the concept of filters, such as AWK. I
really miss AWK, LEX, SED, etc., on the Mac.
>
>> 4. Write batch files(i.e. is there any highlevel, simple programming
>> feature in the Mac OS?)
Depends on what you want to do. If you want to string together filters, or
manipulate files, nope. If you want to, say, write a nifty little application,
HyperCard might fit the bill. I don't think any CLI systems really have the
equivalent of HyperCard, which allows you to throw together programs in
a fairly simple (certainly as simple or simpler than sh or csh) language,
complete with graphical interface, sound, etc.
Note that programming languages, like on the PC, have built-in make-like
abilities, which compile and link appropriate routines based on dependencies,
if that is what you wish. And MPW provides shell scripting ability.
[referring to batch files...]
> In other words, if you need a yes or no answer, the sane answer
>would probably be "No." It's closer to "not really," or "not as you know them."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think this is the key here. To accomplish a task, there may be several
ways. If you try to translate a UNIX way directly to the Mac, lottsa' luck.
But you may be able to accomplish the same thing in a quite different way,
but just as easily. The important thing is the goal which you are trying to
accomplish, and different interaction paradigms may require different
intermediate steps.
None-the-less, the beauty of UNIX is (and was) the idea of small filters
being tied together with pipes and file redirection with shell scripts
replacing user typing. Even today this is elegant, and many systems (such
as DOS) have borrowed many of the same concepts. For many tasks, the CLI
is great. I use UNIX by day and Mac OS by night, and I am happy with both.
(Actually, I have misspoken here when I say "Mac OS". What we are really
discussing is the "Finder", which is the equivalent of sh or csh, a
command shell.)
--
Wayne Folta (folta@cs.umd.edu 128.8.128.8)