egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) (12/22/89)
I thought I would stir the waters a bit with this...especially given the *boring* vein we have struck with Xerox v. Apple postings. (Hey, doesn't everyone know that no software originated with any of the big PC companies? They all bought it from a little old man working in his basement in Moosejaw, Saskatchawan. :-) ) Has anyone had an *official* word from Apple that System 7.0 will be distributed free-of-charge? This seems to be an unstated assumption among the "wait for system 7" group on the net. Apple, in the past, has a tradition of distributing its OS free w/o docs to the public. It struck me that given System 7.0 is supposed to be a *major* rewrite and the OS development is one of the more expensive elements of a computer system (long development times, relatively labor intensive, etc. all equals large $$$), Apple would be crazy to continue the tradition. On a tangential note, I would like to see some discussions con- cerning the relative merits/drawbacks (for consumers & developers) of Apple's approach where you give away the OS and charge high prices (if you listen to some netlanders) for the hardware versus the MSDOS approach where the OS always cost, but the hardware is relatively cheap. For example, is the reason you are paying high hardware costs in the Apple world, the free OS? Paul M. Hudy <egapmh@ecsvax> UNC-General Administration PS: Hmmm, if Apple has always given away the OS, then as to damages, what is Xerox supposed to receive if it wins the suit? :-)
kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Kaleb Keithley) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu> egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) writes: > > On a tangential note, I would like to see some discussions con- >cerning the relative merits/drawbacks (for consumers & developers) >of Apple's approach where you give away the OS and charge high >prices (if you listen to some netlanders) for the hardware versus >the MSDOS approach where the OS always cost, but the hardware is >relatively cheap. For example, is the reason you are paying high >hardware costs in the Apple world, the free OS? > >Paul M. Hudy <egapmh@ecsvax> I remember a time in the MS-DOS world where the Hardware was expensive, and you still had to pay for the OS. In fact, if you want to play OS/2, the hardware is still reasonably expensive, and the OS is even more expensive than it used to be... Hmmmmm. What happens when we get to OS/3. Not to mention, if you want to play UN*X, the hardware gets even more expensive, and the OS gets even more expensive. Now, what happens, when you start with a $3000 VGA equipped 20Mhz 386, add $100 DOS, $225 Windows/386, and then go try and find some real applications to run?? As opposed to paying $3000-$4000 for say, a Mac SE/30, don't have to buy an OS, don't have to buy some 'Clunky' add on windowing package, and you can actually buy applications that work on this system. I'd say it was worth the extra $500. So now it's time for me to put my money where my mouth is and actually buy the Mac of my dreams, or a close substitute. I'll say this, though, it has been a lot easier for me to piece together my MS/DOS system over the years, then it will ever be for me to get into a Macintosh. Some day Mac prices will come down enough to where I could actually buy one. Sigh.... Chewey, get us outta here! kaleb@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (818)354-8771 Kaleb Keithley
ALE101@PSUVM.BITNET (Adrian Sullivan) (12/22/89)
In article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu>, egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) says: > Apple, in the past, has a tradition of distributing its OS free >w/o docs to the public. a month or so ago i posted a note saying how the local mac dealer in the State College, PA area was not giving out the startup disks for free (they were selling a $50 dollar package of disks w/ manuals) ... i talked with the manager of the store, and he said that apple told him that they were no longer allowed to give away system software as of 6.0.3 ... a person or two from apple (before validating what the manager said) and i was told that apple still gives out free upgrades if you bring the master disks (but it was the dealers option to allow it) ... since then i have lost the email addresses of the apple employees that responded, and i was able to obtain 6.0.4, but what i am wondering is, should someone fill these people in? the dealer i went to was "General Computer Center" in State College, PA. i can give out the phone number if anyone (one of the kind apple employees) wishes to call and ask what's up. Adrian Sullivan Vice President - PAMUG Pennsylvania Apple/Mac UG (814) 238-4276
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (12/23/89)
In article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu> egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) writes: > Has anyone had an *official* word from Apple that System 7.0 >will be distributed free-of-charge? This seems to be an unstated >assumption among the "wait for system 7" group on the net. No, but I did read in MacWeek that it will be distributed in the same way as other releases. If you believe them, that is. >[...] > On a tangential note, I would like to see some discussions con- >cerning the relative merits/drawbacks (for consumers & developers) >of Apple's approach where you give away the OS and charge high >prices (if you listen to some netlanders) for the hardware versus >the MSDOS approach where the OS always cost, but the hardware is >relatively cheap. One of the differences between the IBM world and the mac world is the availability of clones. First, IBM's are not neccessarily cheap, but clones are cheap. Second, they pretty much have to charge for the OS, because most buyers probably didn't buuy IBM products to begin with. Personally, I like the free system, becuase it guarantees a more uniform market. Not everyone will switch over to the new system (especially with sys 7 taking 2M) but the situation would have been worse had the updates cost money. Programming the mac is hard enough as it is without having to worry about the people who don't have the patches to add, say, the List Manager to pre-MacPlus machines. -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu
lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (12/23/89)
In article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu> egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) writes: > Has anyone had an *official* word from Apple that System 7.0 > will be distributed free-of-charge? This seems to be an unstated The December 12th MacWeek has an article about System 7.0, where it describes a talk by Chris Espinosa (identified as software marketing manager for Apple USA). The last paragraph (p. 9) says: "According to Espinosa, System 7.0 will be distributed in the same way as current system software upgrades, which are available through user groups, on-line services, of Apple dealers." You have to factor in the believability of MacWeek, but if the quote is accurate, that seems to be a clear answer to the question. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Object Specialist Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1
gdavis@primate.wisc.edu (Gary Davis) (12/23/89)
From article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu>, by egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy): > > Has anyone had an *official* word from Apple that System 7.0 > will be distributed free-of-charge? This seems to be an unstated > assumption among the "wait for system 7" group on the net. It seems to be a safe assumption. I don't know if Apple has made any official announcement, but they presumably wouldn't if the policy is going to be the same as in the past. Several Apple employees have told me the System will still be free to Mac owners. That is, it will available through CompuServe or User Groups or dealers for direct copying or a package of disks and manuals can be purchased for a nominal charge. It is important to note that the System is legally available (according to Apple's license) only for use on Apple equipment. The use of the word "free" seems to have led some Atari and Amiga owners to think that they can use it freely on their machines. Some probably feel that if they buy the System package (for about $50?) they have bought the System software, but this is not the case. The price of the box goes mostly to packaging, distribution and dealer costs and comes no where near reimbursing Apple for the great expense of developing the System software. Or, for the matter, for the equally considerable costs of evanglizing and supporting developers in order to give the Mac a good software base. Which is, of course, the reason why the Ataris and Amiga owners want Mac emulators in the first place. The argument on System software applies equally to the ROMs, of course, since Apple, I'm pretty sure, explicitly approves their use only on Apple equipment. I hesitate to call users of Mac emulators pirates, since I'm sure most of them are fundamentally honest, but I would still say they are stealing, even if unwittingly, Apple's intellectual property. What it comes down to is that Apple sells a complete computer system as one unit, hardware and software together. When you buy a Mac it includes a lifetime supply of System software. Some may argue that it's illegal or immoral or unwise for Apple to refuse to sell the software separately, but I don't know if that's any different from Apple, or any company, not selling unpopulated motherboards or special integrated circuits as separate items. There seems to be a feeling in some quarters that software is somehow different from hardware and really should be free. But the kinds of investment in human resources and finances that a company must make is pretty much the same for both. > On a tangential note, I would like to see some discussions con- > cerning the relative merits/drawbacks (for consumers & developers) > of Apple's approach where you give away the OS and charge high > prices (if you listen to some netlanders) for the hardware versus > the MSDOS approach where the OS always cost, but the hardware is > relatively cheap. For example, is the reason you are paying high > hardware costs in the Apple world, the free OS? > Apple hardware doesn't really cost any more than that from IBM or Compaq, where you still have to buy OS upgrades (correct me if I'm wrong). But there's no question that a lot of the cost of the Mac can be ascribed to System software development. (And to the cost of supporting developers, which some netlanders have claimed Apple does to a greater extent than any other company, IBM included.) Why Apple takes this approach to selling computers may have several justifications. 1) It gives Apple complete control to maintain the consistency and standardization that is such an important feature of the Mac. 2) It's a lot easier to make money selling hardware than software. Hardware's hard to pirate, and OS software must be some of the most pirated software around. It's true that IBM and some companies, like Microsoft and Compaq, that ride on IBM's coattails have been successful selling OS and hardware separately, but Apple's not in the enviable position of having the essentially captive customerate of IBM. Even IBM has been having trouble pushing its hardware. If Apple were to sell or license the OS for clones and emulators, I think there's a good chance Apple would quickly lose the ability to support the kind of development and research that led to the Mac in tthe first place and to HyperCard and other innovations that have had such important influence on computers. There's a pretty good chance as it is that the US is going to lose the computer business to Asian competitors. I don't think I'm a chauvinist at all, but self interest makes me (and lots of people) worry about that possibility. There's a lot more to be said on these questions, but I'm off to do some Christmas shopping. (Do I hear a sigh of relief?) Gary Davis
Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) (12/23/89)
Adrian Sullivan writes:
AS> a month or so ago i posted a note saying how the local mac
AS> dealer in the State College, PA area was not giving out the
AS> startup disks for free (they were selling a $50 dollar
AS> package of disks w/ manuals) ... i talked with the manager
AS> of the store, and he said that apple told him that they were
AS> no longer allowed to give away system software as of 6.0.3
AS> ... a person or two from apple (before validating what the
AS> manager said) and i was told that apple still gives out free
AS> upgrades if you bring the master disks (but it was the
AS> dealers option to allow it) ...
I, too, was lied to by a Columbus, Ohio Apple authorized dealer (Micro
Center, if anyone cares). They said damn near the exact same thing.
Something about "oh, we _just_ got in a memo from Apple saying we'd lose
our authorized dealer status if we gave away system software..." A call
to Apple 5 minutes later showed just what you said--it's the dealer's
option to give it away or not. I found another dealer who was _MORE_
than willing to make up for Micro Center's deficiencies like that. The
only thing you can do is vote with your dollars and never go to that
dealer again. Better yet, as VP of PAMUG, you have some clout. Let
that dealer know that he's soured ALL relations with PAMUG, and PAMUG will
let anyone who cares to ask know just how that dealer does business.
Now, on a related topic, does anyone else agree that if Apple would only
set up a decent, decently policed dealer network, with factory support and
supervision and a factory route for customers who were "worked over" in
this manner (a la Toyota and Honda), it would go a long way toward easing
our gripes about Apple's outlandish prices? I mean, some of us are
willing to pay the price, if it includes service. But when it's a high
price with little to no service included, many people will go elsewhere.
--Adam--
+-- Export 3.0
--
Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200!Adam.Frix
INET: Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORGoplinger@jupiter.crd.ge.com (B. S. Oplinger) (12/29/89)
In article <1345@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> gdavis@primate.wisc.edu writes: >From article <1989Dec21.210721.9191@uncecs.edu>, by egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy): > Don't want to start a flame-fest, so I tried to e-mail but our wonderful mailer says: ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>> HELO indri.primate.wisc.edu <<< 553 Local configuration error, hostname not recognized as local 554 <gdavis@primate.wisc.edu>... Service unavailable: Bad file number So, here goes, in public even :-)! >I hesitate to call users of Mac emulators pirates, since I'm >sure most of them are fundamentally honest, but I would still >say they are stealing, even if unwittingly, Apple's >intellectual property. Sorry, but it goes like this. I may purchase anything I like. I may then do whatever I want with it, as long as it is for my use. I can legally purchase MAC OS ROMS and then use the code contained therein as a basic of an emulator. >It is important to note that the System is legally available >(according to Apple's license) only for use on Apple equipment. If I purchase something, it is mine to do with as I please. Such a 'license' is non-sense. If you look at the shrinkwrap license on the disks, you will find out that the disks contain the usual garbage about the media itself being warrented and not the programs, ad nauseum. I can purchase software and again run it on any machine I like. brian oplinger@crd.ge.com -- <#include standard.disclaimer>
rewing@Apple.COM (Richard Ewing) (12/30/89)
In article <35036.2598DF8A@cmhgate.FIDONET.ORG> Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Adam Frix) writes: >Adrian Sullivan writes: > >AS> a month or so ago i posted a note saying how the local mac >AS> dealer in the State College, PA area was not giving out the >AS> startup disks for free (they were selling a $50 dollar >AS> package of disks w/ manuals) ... i talked with the manager >AS> of the store, and he said that apple told him that they were >AS> no longer allowed to give away system software as of 6.0.3 >AS> ... a person or two from apple (before validating what the >AS> manager said) and i was told that apple still gives out free >AS> upgrades if you bring the master disks (but it was the >AS> dealers option to allow it) ... > > >I, too, was lied to by a Columbus, Ohio Apple authorized dealer (Micro >Center, if anyone cares). They said damn near the exact same thing. >Something about "oh, we _just_ got in a memo from Apple saying we'd lose >our authorized dealer status if we gave away system software..." A call >to Apple 5 minutes later showed just what you said--it's the dealer's >option to give it away or not. I found another dealer who was _MORE_ >than willing to make up for Micro Center's deficiencies like that. The >only thing you can do is vote with your dollars and never go to that >dealer again. Better yet, as VP of PAMUG, you have some clout. Let >that dealer know that he's soured ALL relations with PAMUG, and PAMUG will >let anyone who cares to ask know just how that dealer does business. > >Now, on a related topic, does anyone else agree that if Apple would only >set up a decent, decently policed dealer network, with factory support and >supervision and a factory route for customers who were "worked over" in >this manner (a la Toyota and Honda), it would go a long way toward easing >our gripes about Apple's outlandish prices? I mean, some of us are >willing to pay the price, if it includes service. But when it's a high >price with little to no service included, many people will go elsewhere. > >--Adam-- > >+-- Export 3.0 > >-- >Adam Frix via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH >UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200!Adam.Frix >INET: Adam.Frix@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG First of all, I would like to defend Micro Center's policies. I think the initial reaction from whomever that you talked to was wrong, but I know that it does not affect all of the Micro Center stores, as the one in Atlanta will let you copy system software on request... I know, I've seen it happen and have discussed the policy with them (they wanted to know at one time if we were still using the free upgrade policy, so they would be correct in giving it away to customers). Second, the Apple dealer network *is* supposed to be factory supported that maximizes service to the customer. The problem is in the "policing." Our dealer organization is too large for us to monitor as closely as you would like, but they are monitored, and customer comments or complaints are carefully tracked. However, many dealers and dealer sales people forget the path that they are supposed to take in solving a customer problem. For example, if a customer approches a sales rep with a question he/she can't answer, and no one else in the store can answer it, then the rep is supposed to call the Apple distribution center in their territory for the answer. We have a staff of people at each site whose sole purpose is to answer customer questions from the dealer. Get them to use it!!! DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT ask for the number to the dealer Q/A hotline because they are NOT supposed to give it to you. We don't have enough people to handle individual customer problems and complaints. And if the distribution center staff can't answer your question or solve your problem, then they are supposed to call Cupertino and solve the issue. The system works... I've seen and used it myself. Just remind your dealer that it exists and is available for their use. And if they are clueless enough not to know what the phone number is for the distrbution center (a reprehensible crime), then have them call their local Apple office, who will have the number. believe it or not, Apple's support organization does exist, and has a specific way to access it. Make sure your dealer remembers how and when to use it. I've even had to remeind certain dealers of its existence. They can forget! -- __________________________________________________________________________ |Disclaimer: I run 125 INITs. Nothing I say can be seriously considered. | | | |Internet: REWING@APPLE.COM-----------------------Rick Ewing | |ApplelinkPE & MacNet Soon!------------------Apple Computer, Inc. | |Applelink: EWING--------------------100 Ashford Center North, Suite 100 | |Compu$erve: [76474,1732]--------------------Atlanta, GA 30338 | |GENIE: R.EWING1--------------------------TalkNet: (404) 393-9358 | |USENET: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!rewing | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett) (01/02/90)
In article <37516@apple.Apple.COM> rewing@Apple.COM (Richard Ewing) writes: > >Second, the Apple dealer network *is* supposed to be factory supported >that maximizes service to the customer. The problem is in the >"policing." Our dealer organization is too large for us to >monitor as closely as you would like, but they are monitored, and >customer comments or complaints are carefully tracked. However, >many dealers and dealer sales people forget the path that they >are supposed to take in solving a customer problem. > Frankly, speaking, there is no way that the current setup could ever "maximize service to the customer." Let's look at the setup as it stands: First of all, there's a dealer at the bottom who sells Apple equipment only parttime. There are undoubtedly few authorized dealers who sell exclusively Apple - all of the dealers, including the large chains, have a mix of product lines to maximize their profits. It is unrealistic to expect that every dealer is going to support the Apple line in the ways Apple would like it to, and where that support fails, so does Apple's perceived image. Second, let's look at the upper links of this chain: Apple is one of the worst companies in returning phone calls - bar none. There seems to be a perception throughout the company that most phone calls do not need to be returned, particularly when the caller is unknown. Now, I can't speak with experience about the dealer support setup, but if it's anything like the rest of the company... Guy Kawasaki used a running joke in his talks: You want customer support? Call 996-1010 (or whatever the main Apple number is) For example, if a customer approches a sales rep with a question he/she >can't answer, and no one else in the store can answer it, then >the rep is supposed to call the Apple distribution center in their >territory for the answer. We have a staff of people at each site >whose sole purpose is to answer customer questions from the dealer. >Get them to use it!!! DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT ask for the number >to the dealer Q/A hotline because they are NOT supposed to give it >to you. We don't have enough people to handle individual customer >problems and complaints. And if the distribution center staff >can't answer your question or solve your problem, then they are >supposed to call Cupertino and solve the issue. The system works... >I've seen and used it myself. Just remind your dealer that it exists >and is available for their use. And if they are clueless enough not >to know what the phone number is for the distrbution center (a reprehensible >crime), then have them call their local Apple office, who will have the number. > Now, this is a horrible attitude. "DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT" Gee, you wouldn't want to have to deal with actual users, would you?? Look, why not do yourself a favor? Set up a room with about 50 or so people in it with a bunch of 800 lines - they're really cheap now. Answer the user's calls. Expedite the channel of support instead of inhibiting it. If a customer has a problem, follow it up. Think of the PR benefits, they'll pay for those 50 people fast! Sure, you'll get a lot of calls like "What is the Finder?" but, once you've answered them, you'll get a satisfied user who'll tell other ones. You call up IBM and you'll very quickly get a salesman who'll try to sell you a computer (or one that will call you back). You call up Apple and you'll get a runaround. Now, you'll tell me that Apple doesn't have the resources that IBM does, and I agree, but if you ever expect to grow as large as IBM (and I certainly hope you do), then now is the time to set up the support (*and* sales) network. >believe it or not, Apple's support organization does exist, and has >a specific way to access it. Make sure your dealer remembers >how and when to use it. I've even had to remeind certain dealers >of its existence. They can forget! The above statements typify the quality of the support channel. It really won't cost you that much in the long run, other companies do it, and it will put you in the same race as the big boys. Owen Hartnett omh@cs.brown.edu.CSNET Brown University Computer Science omh@cs.brown.edu uunet!brunix!omh "Don't wait up for me tonight because I won't be home for a month."
baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) (01/03/90)
In article <23943@brunix.UUCP>, omh@cs (Owen M. Hartnett) writes: >Set up a room with about 50 or so people in it with a bunch of 800 >lines - they're really cheap now. Answer the user's calls. Expedite >the channel of support instead of inhibiting it. If a customer has a >problem, follow it up. Think of the PR benefits, they'll pay for >those 50 people fast! Sure, you'll get a lot of calls like "What is >the Finder?" but, once you've answered them, you'll get a satisfied >user who'll tell other ones. > >You call up IBM and you'll very quickly get a salesman who'll try to >sell you a computer (or one that will call you back). You call up >Apple and you'll get a runaround. Now, you'll tell me that Apple >doesn't have the resources that IBM does, and I agree, but if you >ever expect to grow as large as IBM (and I certainly hope you do), then >now is the time to set up the support (*and* sales) network. The WordPerfect Corporation has built its reputation on just this: excellent free technical support, regardless of what the user's problem is, where or when he or she bought the program, or whether or not it could have been solved by reading the manual. When people discuss WordPerfect, they may disagree about how good a word processor it is, but there's no argument about the level of service and the commitment to the customer that WordPerfect has achieved. Honestly, why does Apple think it should run its business any differently than WordPerfect (or any number of other software companies), especially since many people have trouble with the Mac's *System software*, not its hardware? Can you imagine calling 5th Generation about a problem with Suitcase or Fastback and being told "You bought it from MacConnection, so you'll have to call them for help"? It really doesn't cost that much; it just takes some vision and the ability to look past short-term profits and rampant bean-counterism, something that has been in short supply at Apple of late. -- Steve Baumgarten | "New York... when civilization falls apart, Davis Polk & Wardwell | remember, we were way ahead of you." baumgart@esquire.dpw.com | cmcl2!esquire!baumgart | - David Letterman
rewing@Apple.COM (Richard Ewing) (01/03/90)
One of the things I forgot to say about Apple's dealer network and support policies is that I didn't necessarily endorse the status quo. But since we don't have the resources right now to support things like a customer 800 number, I was simply explaining the proper way to go about getting service from Apple. Apple's support policies are a *very* sensitive issue inside the company, and lots of work goes on behind to the scenes to do what we do better. We are committed to that. But until Morris Taradalsky's group rolls out anything new (he's the VP of customer satisfaction; he's also new from IBM), then we have to maximize what we have now. I also take offense to the comment about Apple returning phone calls. If that practice ever happened in this office, heads would be rolling in a heartbeat, since that's not how we operate. I get many phone calls every day from people who called up information, found the local office number, and asked for technical help. In fact, I daresay that you will get better help from the field support organization, since the corproate 974-1010 number just isn't designed for that kind of support (unfortunetely). Now if everyone called us with questions, I'd do nothing else, but for the ones I get, I and my collegues always try to answer the question immediately, and if we can't, we won't let a day go by without taking care of business. And that's our policy. -- __________________________________________________________________________ |Disclaimer: I run 125 INITs. Nothing I say can be seriously considered. | | | |Internet: REWING@APPLE.COM-----------------------Rick Ewing | |ApplelinkPE & MacNet Soon!------------------Apple Computer, Inc. | |Applelink: EWING--------------------100 Ashford Center North, Suite 100 | |Compu$erve: [76474,1732]--------------------Atlanta, GA 30338 | |GENIE: R.EWING1--------------------------TalkNet: (404) 393-9358 | |USENET: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!rewing | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett) (01/03/90)
After I posted the previous message I thought of an even better example: Nintendo. I had a small problem with my son's set - wouldn't boot, so we called the help line to see what was what. The telephone support is excellent. The person on the line was really helpful, in a pleasant, straightforward manner - went through the whole "Okay, now insert the cartridge and press the power button; now what did it do?" routine. I would think that Nintendo, due to its larger installed base, would be much harder to perform that type of support, yet it exists and works very well. Should any revamping of Apple's support policies take place, they would do well to look at Nintendo's. Re: the lack of returned phone calls. I should clarify what I said. I have no problems getting responses to technical questions through MacDTS etc. However, I must state that I have, on well more than one occasion, received absolutely no response from *both* a phone call inquiry *and* an Applelink query. Two of these non response come to mind - one was a supervisory personnel to whom I was referred by an underling, the second person was named in Apple Direct (Apple's publication for certified developers) as the person to contact for more info on a particular new product. Furthermore, I did not mean the statement to be offensive, but a reflection of problems I've encountered in dealing with Apple. Due to the position of the people with whom I've encountered the problem, I expect others have had these problems, also. Whenever I call someone in particular at Apple and have to leave a message, I always ask if that individual returns phone calls. The secretary always says "yes," but, more often than not, she's wrong. -Owen Owen Hartnett omh@cs.brown.edu.CSNET Brown University Computer Science omh@cs.brown.edu uunet!brunix!omh "Don't wait up for me tonight because I won't be home for a month."
jeff@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jeffrey M White) (01/03/90)
In article <24034@brunix.UUCP> omh@cs.brown.edu (Owen M. Hartnett) writes: >After I posted the previous message I thought of an even better example: >Nintendo. I had a small problem with my son's set - wouldn't boot, so >we called the help line to see what was what. The telephone support >is excellent. The person on the line was really helpful, in a pleasant, >straightforward manner - went through the whole "Okay, now insert the >cartridge and press the power button; now what did it do?" routine. > >I would think that Nintendo, due to its larger installed base, would >be much harder to perform that type of support, yet it exists and >works very well. Should any revamping of Apple's support policies >take place, they would do well to look at Nintendo's. After Hours did a segmetn on them a little while ago. They showed cubicles where each person had their Nintendo game and TV. From what I remember, it seemed as if you could even call up with a question about the game itself, and they would forward your call to a person experience with that game. He/she would talk you through it as they played it on their own system. Jeff White University of Pennsylvania jeff@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
dave@PRC.Unisys.COM (David Lee Matuszek) (01/04/90)
In article <37555@apple.Apple.COM> rewing@Apple.COM (Richard Ewing) writes: ... > >I also take offense to the comment about Apple returning phone >calls. If that practice ever happened in this office, heads >would be rolling in a heartbeat, since that's not how we operate. ... Richard, I don't know what comment you refer to, but your reply gets my vote for Best Quote of 1990. -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) -- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 -- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. << Those who fail to learn from Unix are doomed to repeat it. >> -- Dave Matuszek (dave@prc.unisys.com) -- Unisys Corp. / Paoli Research Center / PO Box 517 / Paoli PA 19301 -- Any resemblance between my opinions and those of my employer is improbable. << Those who fail to learn from Unix are doomed to repeat it. >>
jtn@zodiac.ADS.COM (John Nelson) (01/04/90)
>>territory for the answer. We have a staff of people at each site >>whose sole purpose is to answer customer questions from the dealer. >>Get them to use it!!! DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT ask for the number >>to the dealer Q/A hotline because they are NOT supposed to give it >>to you. We don't have enough people to handle individual customer >>problems and complaints. And if the distribution center staff >Now, this is a horrible attitude. "DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT" Gee, you >wouldn't want to have to deal with actual users, would you?? Look, why >not do yourself a favor? Set up a room with about 50 or so people in it >with a bunch of 800 lines - they're really cheap now. Answer the >user's calls. Expedite the channel of support instead of inhibiting it. >If a customer has a problem, follow it up. Think of the PR benefits, The attitude at Apple seems to be "we're a small company... we can't afford customer service" yet do you realize that Apple is one of *the* most profitable companies in the nation? What are Apple's revenues these days... in excess of a billion dollars I seem to recall... and they *still* do not provide customer support directly from Apple. The small company excuses are wearing thin. -- John T. Nelson UUCP: sun!sundc!potomac!jtn Advanced Decision Systems Internet: jtn@potomac.ads.com 1500 Wilson Blvd #512; Arlington, VA 22209-2401 (703) 243-1611
cy@dbase.UUCP (Cy Shuster) (01/05/90)
In article <1701@esquire.UUCP> baumgart@esquire.dpw.com (Steve Baumgarten) writes: [arguing for free customer support] >It really doesn't cost that much; ... [most omitted] I beg to differ on this point. Good support is quite costly, labor- intensive as it is, and particularly when a wide variety of hardware and software configurations are supported (moreso for our PC products, but rapidly expanding on the Mac side as well). This is one of the chief reasons for limiting support to registered owners. Furthermore, support people, along with testers, are some of the most unsung heroes of the industry. Most developers don't know the externals of the products nearly as well as the internals; we'd be in deep puckey without 'em. Plus, they have to represent the whole company to end users every day, and defend products that they can only indirectly change. My hat's off to them. This has been an unpaid, unpolitical announcement. --Cy-- cy@dbase.a-t.com
ADAM.FRIX@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (ADAM FRIX) (01/07/90)
Jeffrey M. White writes:
JMW> >I would think that Nintendo, due to its larger installed base,
JMW> >would be much harder to perform that type of support, yet it
JMW> >exists and works very well. Should any revamping of Apple's
JMW> >support policies take place, they would do well to look at
JMW> >Nintendo's.
JMW>
JMW> After Hours did a segmetn on them a little while ago. They
JMW> showed cubicles where each person had their Nintendo game and TV.
JMW> From what I remember, it seemed as if you could even call up with
JMW> a question about the game itself, and they would forward your
JMW> call to a person experience with that game. He/she would talk
JMW> you through it as they played it on their own system.
ummm, perhaps I should be a _bit_ embarrassed to admit this, but here
goes: yes, I know it's true that Nintendo "game counselors" (no kidding!)
will give you help on how to play specific games. After all, if you can't
play a game, you don't want their machine, right? The counselors will
play the game right with you as they talk on the phone. It's not a free
call, as I remember, but the information is eagerly and kindly offered,
available, and thorough. Apple _should_ do so good.
--Adam--
--
ADAM FRIX via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!osu-cis!n8emr!cmhgate!200!ADAM.FRIX
INET: ADAM.FRIX@f200.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG