[comp.sys.mac] Multiple monitors

vogelei@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Todd Vogelei) (06/02/89)

I know this was hashed and rehashed just a short time ago but I never 
thought I'd need it.  I'm face with a situation where I need a keyboard
and monitor in two places, one over my music studio stuff, one at my
desk right in the studio.  One I need to 'fly' on articulated arms for
work when standing over things, one at a desk.  I thought of two macs but 
cost is too much.  What I really need is 1 mac in two places at once.

So, anyway, I don't want to buy a monitor card, just neeed to split the
video for identical screens.  I would like any advice on low cost monitors
that I can do this with, I have an apple standard RGB with apple card in my
mac II.  I also would like to know if I am likely to experience problems
having two extended keyboards and two kensington turbo mice plugged into
the ADB at one time.  I would only use one set at a time.  Info on practical
limits for cable lengths would be good too.  

Please E-mail as I doubt this is of general interest to the net at large.


Todd
vogelei@nmtsun

aland@infmx.UUCP (Dr. Scump) (12/29/89)

dorourke@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (David M. O'Rourke) writes:
>[and I've tried so hard to stay out of this... :-) ]
>
> You've obviously not ever used a system that allowed you to use two screens
>effectivly.  It's very nice to debug on one screen and run your code on the
>other, just as much as simply having the extra screen real-estate.
>...
>  You could've very easily picked some of the expanssion options that are
>truely debatable for usefullness, but saying the ability to configure a
>multi-screen system is not a USEFUL system just shows how closed minded and
>un-imformed you really are.

Uh, Dave, how much have you used PCs?  As stated earlier, I have been running
two monitors in my AT at home for quite a while, and I use them both for
dual-screen debugging also.  What makes you think the PC world is incapable
of such magic?

Tough to configure, too.  Open the machine, add the mono card, screw it in,
close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss, no fuss.
To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To switch back to 
EGA, run "mode co80".  To enable the secondary monitor in the Informix-4GL
debugger (for example), run "appl dev" (application device enable).
Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.

>David M. O'Rourke
>Graduating in March of 1990, with a BS in Computer Science & need a Job. 

In a Mac-only shop, I suppose...

--
  Alan S. Denney  @  Informix Software, Inc.    "We're homeward bound
       {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland               ('tis a damn fine sound!)
 --------------------------------------------    with a good ship, taut & free
  Disclaimer:  These opinions are mine alone.    We don't give a damn, 
  If I am caught or killed, the secretary        when we drink our rum
  will disavow any knowledge of my actions.      with the girls of old Maui."

hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Josh Hodas) (12/31/89)

In article <2938@infmx.UUCP> aland@infmx.UUCP (alan denney) writes:
>dorourke@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (David M. O'Rourke) writes:
>>[and I've tried so hard to stay out of this... :-) ]
>>
>> You've obviously not ever used a system that allowed you to use two screens
>>effectivly.  It's very nice to debug on one screen and run your code on the
>>other, just as much as simply having the extra screen real-estate.
>>...
>>  You could've very easily picked some of the expanssion options that are
>>truely debatable for usefullness, but saying the ability to configure a
>>multi-screen system is not a USEFUL system just shows how closed minded and
>>un-imformed you really are.
>
>Uh, Dave, how much have you used PCs?  As stated earlier, I have been running
>two monitors in my AT at home for quite a while, and I use them both for
>dual-screen debugging also.  What makes you think the PC world is incapable
>of such magic?
>
>Tough to configure, too.  Open the machine, add the mono card, screw it in,
>close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss, no fuss.
>To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To switch back to 
>EGA, run "mode co80".  To enable the secondary monitor in the Informix-4GL
>debugger (for example), run "appl dev" (application device enable).
>Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.
>
>>David M. O'Rourke
>>Graduating in March of 1990, with a BS in Computer Science & need a Job. 
>
>In a Mac-only shop, I suppose...
>
>--
>  Alan S. Denney  @  Informix Software, Inc.    "We're homeward bound
>       {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland               ('tis a damn fine sound!)
> --------------------------------------------    with a good ship, taut & free
>  Disclaimer:  These opinions are mine alone.    We don't give a damn, 
>  If I am caught or killed, the secretary        when we drink our rum
>  will disavow any knowledge of my actions.      with the girls of old Maui."


God forgive me..

I swore I was going to stay out of this argument.  I thought I had resisted it 
long enough, as the volume was down to a trickle. But this note just P-sses me
off. (It's not the first one, its just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Alan, you clearly have no idea what this conversation is about.

Yes, it is certainly true you can run your debugger on two screens. I wont
deny that, I do it all the time when I do PC development.  But the point is
that this debugger had to be specifically designed for that use, and it is one
of a very few applications that knows how to do it on the PC.  On the mac
any application can run on anny monitor (caveat, a very few poorly written 
programs may map their window to a particular location, this is a serious flaw
in those programs).  

This helps, not just with individual programs that use lots of windows, (for 
instance when I am TeXing I keep my preview window open on my Portrait display
while I type on my 13" color screen) but also when using several programs 
together.  I might bring up MacWrite II on the main screen (portrait) then 
bring up MacDraw to do a diagram.  It opens onto the main screen, but I just 
drag it over to the small screen, so I can see both programs at once.

Again the poin is not that a very few programs on the PC can use this 
capability.  THe point is that you have no idea how useful a general feature
it is until you have used a well designed system that lets you use it at will.

Josh
-------------------------

Josh Hodas    (hodas@eniac.seas.upenn.edu)
4223 Pine Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104

(215) 222-7112   (home)
(215) 898-5423   (school office)

mgodwin@rpp386.cactus.org (Mike Godwin) (12/31/89)

I don't think anyone is disputing that PCs can run multiple monitors.
I know from my own experience that a multiple-monitor configuration
is really the better choice for using PC-AutoCad.

But the Macintosh enthusiasts here were not talking about multiple-
monitor capability, but, rather, VIRTUAL monitor capability. That
is, they were talking about having all the monitors connected AND
acting like a single monitor. For example, one can, under such a 
system, click-and-drag a graphic object from one screen to the other,
without touching the keyboard, and without doing anything to tell  
your system that you're going to be working on B monitor rather than
A monitor right now.

From my own experience, with both PCs and Macs, desktop publishing is
one application for which Mac's virtual-monitor capability provides
a clear advantage.

(I was about to say "a clear and indisputable" advantage, but then
I realized who I was talking to.)

-- 
Mike Godwin   UT Law School  | "... and first I put my arms around him yes  
mgodwin@rpp386.cactus.org    |  and drew him down to me so he could feel my   
(512) 346-4190               |  breasts all perfume yes and his heart was      
cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!mgodwin |  going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes."

folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) (12/31/89)

[Referring to two monitors on an IBM AT:]
>Tough to configure, too.  Open the machine, add the mono card, screw it in,
>close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss, no fuss.
>To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To switch back to 
>EGA, run "mode co80".  To enable the secondary monitor in the Informix-4GL
>debugger (for example), run "appl dev" (application device enable).
>Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.

I don't think it is so easy to do this in general.  Your Mono/color system
is pretty easy.  What about a multi-color system?  How would you change
monitors then (co80a, co80b?)?  And when you do change monitors, you have to
give a special command.  On a Mac, you simply move the cursor to the screen
you want (you define the geometry: how the two monitors logically abut).

I am speaking from gross IBM ignorance--I have no substantial IBM experience,
I mainly watch IBM-using friends.  But, I have just watched a friend attempt
to get an internal modem to work with his other cards... How he wasted hours
with DIP switches and jumpers.  Are monitors that much easier?

I owned an original PC, and I know they were designed for a co80/mono system,
but I wonder what magic you would have to do to get an arbitrary combination,
and how easy it would be to switch.  (CONFIG.SYS time?)

A desktop publishing magazine I read did a test to prove a point: they got
a dozen Mac monitors and randomly chose combinations of five monitors, put
their boards in a Mac II, and booted the thing.  They all worked.  Of course,
no one would use five monitors, but the point was that NuBus cards are
self-configuring and are compatible.  You don't change jumpers, worry about
interrupt levels, edit system configuration files...  IBM has moved in this
direction with its MCA, I believe.
--


Wayne Folta          (folta@cs.umd.edu  128.8.128.8)

tdrinkar@cosmos.acs.calpoly.edu (Terrell Drinkard) (12/31/89)

In article <2938@infmx.UUCP> aland@infmx.UUCP (alan denney) writes:
>Tough to configure, too.  Open the machine, add the mono card, screw it
>in, close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss,

If what you say it true, no switches to set, no jumpers to
configure, no lines to add to the config.sys file, nothing added to
the autoexec.bat file, no interrupt conflict problems, then this is
a first for the PC world.  Glad you've caught up with the rest of
us.

>no fuss.  To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To
>switch back to EGA, run "mode co80".  To enable the secondary monitor 
>in the Informix-4GL debugger (for example), run "appl dev" (application
>device enable).  Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.

I won't even go into how that looks to a Mac driver!  :-)

>  Alan S. Denney  @  Informix Software, Inc.    "We're homeward bound
>       {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland           ('tis a damn fine sound!)

Terry

Disclaimer et la Signaturo:
Hell no, I'm not responsible for what I say!  If everyone were
responsible for what they said, we'd have had a balanced budget in
1984.

bcw@rti.UUCP (Bruce Wright) (12/31/89)

In article <21548@mimsy.umd.edu>, folta@tove.umd.edu (Wayne Folta) writes:
> I don't think it is so easy to do this in general.  Your Mono/color system
> is pretty easy.  What about a multi-color system?  How would you change
> monitors then (co80a, co80b?)?  And when you do change monitors, you have to
> give a special command.  On a Mac, you simply move the cursor to the screen
> you want (you define the geometry: how the two monitors logically abut).

You're right -- it isn't so easy to do this in general.  For most video
adapter combinations (that's probably more accurate than "monitors" in
this context), the only thing that works is one of {CGA | EGA | VGA} 
combined with one of {MDA | Hercules}.  That is, you can't mix CGA and 
EGA (unless maybe you run the EGA in monochrome-text-only mode and don't
use it for color or graphics ... I haven't tried this combination because
it's sort of perverse, so I don't know if it would work, but I see no 
obvious reason why it wouldn't;  in any event you could only use one EGA
in this mode -- and no MDA's -- before the available addresses would be 
used up).  So the limit on a PC with "stock" video cards is 2 cards.

That's for standard adapters.  On another discussion thread I mentioned 
that I had seen a special adapter that would allow multiple EGA or VGA
adapters on a single machine.  The adapters definitely know about each
other -- they have a special "bank switching" technique which makes one
or another of them "go away" from the point of view of the PC software.
I saw this used to make a multiuser PC with an EGA or VGA for each user
(rather than running users off the serial ports).  It's rather expensive
(I seem to remember something over $1000 for each adapter), but it might
be cheaper than multiple PC's if you're running high-end machines.  But
this technique doesn't work in general -- you can't use it with just any
video adapter you find.

						Bruce C. Wright

rewing@Apple.COM (Richard Ewing) (12/31/89)

In article <2938@infmx.UUCP> aland@infmx.UUCP (alan denney) writes:
>dorourke@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (David M. O'Rourke) writes:
>>[and I've tried so hard to stay out of this... :-) ]
>>
>> You've obviously not ever used a system that allowed you to use two screens
>>effectivly.  It's very nice to debug on one screen and run your code on the
>>other, just as much as simply having the extra screen real-estate.
>>...
>>  You could've very easily picked some of the expanssion options that are
>>truely debatable for usefullness, but saying the ability to configure a
>>multi-screen system is not a USEFUL system just shows how closed minded and
>>un-imformed you really are.
>
>Uh, Dave, how much have you used PCs?  As stated earlier, I have been running
>two monitors in my AT at home for quite a while, and I use them both for
>dual-screen debugging also.  What makes you think the PC world is incapable
>of such magic?
>
>Tough to configure, too.  Open the machine, add the mono card, screw it in,
>close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss, no fuss.
>To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To switch back to 
>EGA, run "mode co80".  To enable the secondary monitor in the Informix-4GL
>debugger (for example), run "appl dev" (application device enable).
>Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.
>
>>David M. O'Rourke
>>Graduating in March of 1990, with a BS in Computer Science & need a Job. 
>
>In a Mac-only shop, I suppose...
>
>--
>  Alan S. Denney  @  Informix Software, Inc.    "We're homeward bound
>       {pyramid|uunet}!infmx!aland               ('tis a damn fine sound!)
> --------------------------------------------    with a good ship, taut & free
>  Disclaimer:  These opinions are mine alone.    We don't give a damn, 
>  If I am caught or killed, the secretary        when we drink our rum
>  will disavow any knowledge of my actions.      with the girls of old Maui."

I think you're missing the point here.  No one said that a PC is incapable
of running two or more monitors; I've seen it done.  However, I think the
point is that in a Mac multiple monitor scenario, you can use it for
far many different purposes in *any* application.  Essentially,
the two (or more) monitors combine together to produce one *big*
virtual space in which windows can be dragged to and fro, or even overlap
from one screen to another (or more) without any complaints or
special configuration from the application.  Most PC setups in which
I have seen multiple moniTors involve weird or custom situations in
which the application must know how to deal with both screens.  I mean,
having the debugging window over on another screen is nice, but not
everybody deals with Codeview all his life to use this luxury.  On
the Mac, it doesn't matter what you run, or how you run it, or whether
one monitor is color, and the other monichrome.  "Mode mono"???  "Mode co80"?
"app dev"?!???  What the hell is that?  And why should I have to know
that?

EXERCISE:  Get a copy of Wingz (easy for those of you at Informix).  Get
a Mac with two monitors.  Open a mondo-big Wingz spreadsheet on the Mac.
Drag the window to cover both monitors.  Continue working.

-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
|Disclaimer:  I run 125 INITs. Nothing I say can be seriously considered. |
|                                                                         |
|Internet: REWING@APPLE.COM-----------------------Rick Ewing              |
|ApplelinkPE & MacNet Soon!------------------Apple Computer, Inc.         |
|Applelink: EWING--------------------100 Ashford Center North, Suite 100  |
|Compu$erve: [76474,1732]--------------------Atlanta, GA 30338            |
|GENIE: R.EWING1--------------------------TalkNet: (404) 393-9358         |
|USENET: {amdahl,decwrl,sun,unisoft}!apple!rewing                         |
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) (01/03/90)

I'd like to clear this up once and for all with a summary of what has
been said on this subject:

1. Original (pro-MAC) poster notes that MACII supports multiple
monitors as one contiguous (i.e. same picture spans multiple monitors)
video space.

He is right. We can't do this in the MSDOS world (at least I've never
seen it done for general software, of course you can always doctor
your own software to do this). In the MSDOS arena we can only have
dissimilar multi-monitors (i.e. color and mono displays) hooked
simultaneously without special drivers and exotic hardware. That's all
you need for multi-screen debugging; I love debugging graphics
programs from my monochrome monitor.

I am willing to concede that this is a neat feature of the Mac II?
that is difficult to duplicate even with UNIX (AIX or Interactive are
the ones I am familiar with) and X-Windows. However, how many people
really need an application to span multiple monitors? Its aweful
difficult to visualize a picture crossing monitor boundaries though it
make for a neat effect at dance clubs. Just go out and get a bigger
one. If you just want a pseudo-contiguous workspace across monitors
(mouse moves off one monitor to the next at the edges), which is a far
more normal task, this is easily done with any of the X-Window
implementations by running multiple servers and having a client that
effects the switch when the mouse cursor reaches the proper edge.

Anyway, PC-Clones make a marvelously cost-effective UNIX box for less
than the price of a base MAC II system configuration. Previous posting
have confirmed that $3500 will get you a decent 25MHz base UNIX
configuration. Actually, even a real IBM machine could make sense for
those in the University setting. Last time I looked, IBM was offering
~40% University discount to students (at Berkeley when I was there
last year) on '386 hardware and tossing in full AIX/PS2 (TCP/IP, NFS,
X-Windows, etc..) for only an additional $250 (discount of something
like $2000). I believe that they would even pre-install the software
like Sun.

On the OS2 front, there was some talk on making OS2 POSIX compliant
next year which is not possible with MultiFinder 7.0 because it does
not support pre-emptive context switching. Check it out in Byte.

					Ron
 
+-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+
+------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+
+ Ronald S. Woan  (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com +
+ outside of IBM       @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron +

daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) (01/03/90)

in article <17514@rpp386.cactus.org>, mgodwin@rpp386.cactus.org (Mike Godwin) says:
> Keywords: Multiple monitors, virtual monitors
> Xref: cbmvax comp.sys.ibm.pc:45442 comp.sys.mac:48678

> But the Macintosh enthusiasts here were not talking about multiple-
> monitor capability, but, rather, VIRTUAL monitor capability. That
> is, they were talking about having all the monitors connected AND
> acting like a single monitor. 

That's certainly a cool feature of the Mac OS.  But do they actually call
it a "Virtual Monitor" facility?  That doesn't sound like what it really
does for you.  The Amiga's Intuition interface has a feature that's more
like what I'd think of as virtual monitors -- it can support any number of
separate monitor displays on a single monitor, via kind of a superwindow
called a Screen.  Any number of windows live on each screen; screens don't
overlap each other, windows do.  This is really useful for avoiding excessive 
numbers of windows on the single screen most WIMP interfaces provide (even if 
that single screen can spread across multiple physical monitors).  Does the 
Mac OS allow anything like this under Multifinder?  It probably should.

> Mike Godwin   UT Law School  | "... and first I put my arms around him yes  
-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Systems Engineering) "The Crew That Never Rests"
   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh      PLINK: hazy     BIX: hazy
                    Too much of everything is just enough

mgodwin@rpp386.cactus.org (Mike Godwin) (01/03/90)

In article <9191@cbmvax.commodore.com> daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie) writes:
>> But the Macintosh enthusiasts here were not talking about multiple-
>> monitor capability, but, rather, VIRTUAL monitor capability. That
>> is, they were talking about having all the monitors connected AND
>> acting like a single monitor. 
>
>That's certainly a cool feature of the Mac OS.  But do they actually call
>it a "Virtual Monitor" facility?  That doesn't sound like what it really
>does for you.  The Amiga's Intuition interface has a feature that's more
>like what I'd think of as virtual monitors -- it can support any number of
>separate monitor displays on a single monitor, via kind of a superwindow
>called a Screen.  Any number of windows live on each screen; screens don't
>overlap each other, windows do.   

Heh. Sorry if I've treaded on someone else's nomenclature. I don't know
just where I got the phrase "virtual monitor" in reference to this Mac
feature, but I don't think I just made it up.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin   UT Law School  | "... and first I put my arms around him yes  
mgodwin@rpp386.cactus.org    |  and drew him down to me so he could feel my   
(512) 346-4190               |  breasts all perfume yes and his heart was      
cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!mgodwin |  going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes."

jml@tw-rnd.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Michael Lodman) (01/04/90)

In article <2938@infmx.UUCP> aland@infmx.UUCP (alan denney) writes:
>Uh, Dave, how much have you used PCs?  As stated earlier, I have been running
>two monitors in my AT at home for quite a while, and I use them both for
>dual-screen debugging also.  What makes you think the PC world is incapable
>of such magic?
>close the machine, turn on the power.  No switches to set, no muss, no fuss.
>To switch primary monitor to the mono, run "mode mono".  To switch back to 

This is sort of an accident of addressing spaces in the PC. The mono cards
use a different base I/O address than do the color cards. I'm not sure if
this was an accident of design, or a wanted feature. However, it does
explain why only mono & (cga|ega|vga) will work. The BIOS will write to
only one of the I/O spaces depending on the video mode set. Some programs
bypassing the BIOS may use both monitors, but, it does not seem very
useful as very few programs take advantage of it.

The MAC's ability to use multiple monitors in a powerful way is one
of the few enviable features of that system.

-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Lodman               Mike.Lodman@SanDiego.NCR.COM |
| NCR Corporation  -  Distributed Systems Lab  -  San Diego |
| 9900 Old Grove Rd.  San Diego, CA.  92131  (619) 693-5353 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (01/04/90)

In article <1232@awdprime.UUCP> ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) 
writes:

> the ones I am familiar with) and X-Windows. However, how many people
> really need an application to span multiple monitors? Its aweful
> difficult to visualize a picture crossing monitor boundaries though it
> make for a neat effect at dance clubs. Just go out and get a bigger
> one. 

In a lot of cases, 2 small monitors will cost less than one large one, 
especially if you have to junk an existing monitor.  Or, if you have an 
extra monitor lying around, then on a Mac II all you need is the video 
card to drive it.

Being able to position 2 monitors side by side and drag windows from one 
to another is very handy.  You can have one monitor in black and white and 
another in color, for example.  Also, there are applications in which a 
little extra screen width is helpful (for those extra long comments) and 
it is nice to be able to use both monitors for one window.

Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc.
Object Specialist

Internet: lsr@Apple.com   UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr
AppleLink: Rosenstein1

drc@claris.com (Dennis Cohen) (01/04/90)

lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) writes:

>In article <1232@awdprime.UUCP> ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) 
>writes:

>> the ones I am familiar with) and X-Windows. However, how many people
>> really need an application to span multiple monitors? Its aweful
>> difficult to visualize a picture crossing monitor boundaries though it
>> make for a neat effect at dance clubs. Just go out and get a bigger
>> one. 

>In a lot of cases, 2 small monitors will cost less than one large one, 
>especially if you have to junk an existing monitor.  Or, if you have an 
>extra monitor lying around, then on a Mac II all you need is the video 
>card to drive it.

>Being able to position 2 monitors side by side and drag windows from one 
>to another is very handy.  You can have one monitor in black and white and 
>another in color, for example.  Also, there are applications in which a 
>little extra screen width is helpful (for those extra long comments) and 
>it is nice to be able to use both monitors for one window.

Larry left out one of the best features of multiple monitors, if you're a
programmer.  You can designate one of them as the MacsBug screen (hold down
the option key in the Monitors cdev) and MacsBug or Jasik's "The Debugger"
will use that screen as the debugger screen -- this means that you can have
an inexpensive (relatively) monitor set up for debugging without hiding the
running app which you are trying to debug.  The Debugger really takes advantage
of the feature, giving you the choice of "Split Screens", in which case the
debugger is always visible on the second monitor; or "Save Screen" in which
case it pops up only when you enter the debugger (this is the way MacsBug
works with it).

I tried a large monitor and I've tried two "normal" sized monitors, and I'll
take the two-monitor setup, for my purposes, every time.  If I were doing
page layout work, schematic design, or some other similar application, I would
probably opt for the big monitor (except price-wise).

Dennis Cohen
Claris Corp.
 ****************************************************
Disclaimer:  Any opinions expressed above are _MINE_!
 ****************************************************

ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) (01/05/90)

In article <10784@claris.com>, drc@claris.com (Dennis Cohen) writes:
|>Larry left out one of the best features of multiple monitors, if
|>you're a programmer.  You can designate one of them as the MacsBug
|>screen (hold down the option key in the Monitors cdev) and MacsBug
|>or Jasik's "The Debugger" will use that screen as the debugger
|>screen -- this means that you can have an inexpensive (relatively)
|>monitor set up for debugging without hiding the running app which
|>you are trying to debug. 

I think that he left this out because in my original posting and in
many followups it has been mentioned that we have done this in the PC
world since before the MAC was born using a color and monochrome
monitor setup on any stock IBM PC/clone. Many PC/MSDOS debuggers
support this setup. Best yet take a cheap PC Clone, tie it to the
async port and debug with Turbo Debugger remotely. Saves on crash
recovery and error pinpointing if the application causes some nasty
processor halt or memory mixup.

|>I tried a large monitor and I've tried two "normal" sized monitors,
|>and I'll take the two-monitor setup, for my purposes, every time.
|>If I were doing page layout work, schematic design, or some other
|>similar application, I would probably opt for the big monitor
|>(except price-wise).

Which relates to my original point that a window spanning multiple
monitors is seldom used for any real purpose. Dragging from one
monitor to another and having the mouse cursor zip from one monitor to
the other is far more used.

+-----All Views Expressed Are My Own And Are Not Necessarily Shared By------+
+------------------------------My Employer----------------------------------+
+ Ronald S. Woan  (IBM VNET)WOAN AT AUSTIN, (AUSTIN)ron@woan.austin.ibm.com +
+ outside of IBM       @cs.utexas.edu:ibmchs!auschs!woan.austin.ibm.com!ron +

lsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (01/05/90)

In article <1258@awdprime.UUCP> ron@woan.austin.ibm.com (Ronald S. Woan) 
writes:
> Which relates to my original point that a window spanning multiple
> monitors is seldom used for any real purpose. Dragging from one
> monitor to another and having the mouse cursor zip from one monitor to
> the other is far more used.

It may be seldom used, but there are cases where you need that extra inch 
of screen width and it's nice to be able to do it.  Also, I would argue 
that this is the most natural use of multiple monitors from the user's 
point of view.


Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc.
Object Specialist

Internet: lsr@Apple.com   UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr
AppleLink: Rosenstein1

gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (01/06/90)

In article rewing@Apple.COM writes:
> Essentially, the two (or more) monitors combine together to produce
> one *big* virtual space in which windows can be dragged to and fro, or
> even overlap from one screen to another (or more) without any
> complaints or special configuration from the application.

> Most PC setups in which I have seen multiple moniTors involve weird
> or custom situations in which the application must know how to deal
> with both screens.  

You must be joking.  Have you ever programmed the Mac for multiple
monitors?  It's no cakewalk.  I am just beginning to write code for
multiple monitors, and it seems to be the same old stupid story:

1.  Check if you have multiple monitors.  
2.  If so, then invoke all sorts of special-case software to deal with
them (like the size a window may zoom, and the way you paint the
desktop).

Furthermore, the mac provides no way to "simulate" multiple monitors
on a single monitor, so it's just one more way to make your code
undebuggable for the entire macintosh line.  In a more general sense,
Apple has found that by twiddling the software in each Macintosh model,
software companies must buy one of each for testing.  This must be
wonderful for sales, and for keeping small-scale developers from
entering the Mac-Software market.

Don Gillies, Dept. of Computer Science, University of Illinois
1304 W. Springfield, Urbana, Ill 61801      
ARPA: gillies@cs.uiuc.edu   UUCP: {uunet,harvard}!uiucdcs!gillies

gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu (01/11/90)

> Depends... what you should do is come up on the main monitor the first
> time, then remember where you are moved to.  

Unfortunately the mac allows you to drag screens around in relation to
one another, through the control panel.  Then the "remembered" window
would end up off-screen.

pepke@loligo (Eric Pepke) (01/11/90)

In article <126900143@p.cs.uiuc.edu> gillies@p.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>> Depends... what you should do is come up on the main monitor the first
>> time, then remember where you are moved to.  
>
>Unfortunately the mac allows you to drag screens around in relation to
>one another, through the control panel.  Then the "remembered" window
>would end up off-screen.

When this happens, you put the window in the same place you would put a new
window, i.e. upper left corner of the screen with the menu bar, staggered.

Eric Pepke                                     INTERNET: pepke@gw.scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute  MFENET:   pepke@fsu
Florida State University                       SPAN:     scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052                     BITNET:   pepke@fsu

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