[comp.sys.mac] More Word gripes

Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (02/22/90)

I have seen a lot of people posting their complaints of MS Word 4.0 lately.
I guess I'd like to add a couple of pointed questions myself.

Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  I don't think
the poster used these types of terms, but that was how I interpreted the
request (I lost the original post).  Unfortunately, I didn't see any replies
posted to the net (or a summary yet).

To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  However,
since this is a real problem for me as I need to insert tables, charts, and
graphs into Word to produce draft chapters of my dissertation.  As it
is, I assume that I have to place <whatever> and then tweak the text around
it myself.  However, I would like to tap the collective knowledge of the
net to make sure that I am not missing something in Word.  Am I?  Is it
possible to do this with Word?  Having to keep readjusting chapter drafts
manually is not a thought I relish at all.  It would almost be simpler to
cut and paste.

If not with Word, then how about another Mac product?  At this point, I am
seriously considering a switch.  On the IBM side, I am aware that WordPerfect
5.0 (5.1) allows you to place a graphic and have text flow automatically
around it.  So please don't post responses that I am asking a word processor
to do the work of DTP package.  Even with Waterloo Script on my IMB mainframe
(OK, so it actually belongs to Penn State) I can kind of do these types of
things by dumping floating blocks.

Also, is there a way to tell Word to automatically number a new document with
the next logical page number from the previously printed document.  Again,
I keep my chapters in separtate files.  I then print the whole thing by
choosing the appropriate file under the Next File selection of Page Setup.
While this works to print all chapters, I have to manually change ahead of
time the starting page number for each chapter.  Again, am I missing
something?  I admit I haven't read the 4.0 documentation as closely as I
csign have, but I have been unable to find a way of doing this.

Oh well, thanks for any information in advance.  If you don't like posting
to the net, send me e-mail and I'll summarize.
-------

Scott D. Camp
Dept. of Sociology
The Pennsylvania State University
305 Oswald Tower
University Park, PA  16802
814-863-0393

thewho@portia.Stanford.EDU (Derek Fong) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
>I have seen a lot of people posting their complaints of MS Word 4.0 lately.
>I guess I'd like to add a couple of pointed questions myself.
>
>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  I don't think
>the poster used these types of terms, but that was how I interpreted the
>request (I lost the original post).  Unfortunately, I didn't see any replies
>posted to the net (or a summary yet).
>
>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  However,
>since this is a real problem for me as I need to insert tables, charts, and
>graphs into Word to produce draft chapters of my dissertation.  As it
>is, I assume that I have to place <whatever> and then tweak the text around
>it myself.  However, I would like to tap the collective knowledge of the
>net to make sure that I am not missing something in Word.  Am I?  Is it
>possible to do this with Word?  Having to keep readjusting chapter drafts
>manually is not a thought I relish at all.  It would almost be simpler to
>cut and paste.
>
I am almost poitive that you can do this withh Word 4 although I have never
actually used this feature.  I know for a fact that you can accomplish this
need by creating separate columns, but I guess that could get quite nasty....
Ah, I just found it.  I've been flipping through my manual as I type along.
It's on page 244-245 of the Reference manual.  I hope that this manual is 
the same as yours.  (I bought the Academic Version which came with a number of
manuals.  This one is a spiral bound and is titled "Reference to Microsoft
Word")  Looking at this description briefly, it appears that you allocated a
box for you graphic/table/etc.  Actually, Looking at it now, it is from page
240 on.  To quote p.240 (I hope this satisfies your needs): "The text of the
normal paragraphs flows areound the boundaries of the positioned objects,
filling the available space..."  So you if set aside a region, the text
supposedly flows around the box.  How to actually do this and how hard it
is, you'll have to find out, it doesn't look too bad though.


>If not with Word, then how about another Mac product? 
Well, I think I've shown that Word can do what you want.  From what I've
heard, FullWrite does it too.  But, Fullwrite, I think would solve you
chapter problems.  From what I have heard, FullWrite works in chapters.  Sorry
I can't be more specific, but I'm not too familiar with FullWrite except that
it has some features like that and you need a megamachine to run it (020/030
with at least 4 MB of RAM) or the program is awefully slow.
Then again, Word might be able to solve you chapter problem too, but I don't
know enought about word to figure if that is possible.  Maybe if I have
time later, I'll sit down with the manual and try to find that out for you.

Anyways, hope this has been helpful.  Good luck.  I have a lot of gripes
about Word too, but most have already been put in that "bug list" which came
out shortly after Word's release.  All in all, I've been pretty pleased with 
the program though.  Not bad, but could be better...

---Derek Fong
fong@cive.stanford.edu
thewho@portia.stanford.edu
	

news@haddock.ima.isc.com (overhead) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.
>Unfortunately, I didn't see any repliesposted to the net (or a summary yet).
>
>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.

Not only is it possible, I've done it.  Like everything that's a little
tricky and/or new in MS Word, it takes about a half hour of playing
in order to get it to work.  It's something like
	select the graphic
	invoke "position" from the menus
	feed the box with stuff
		there is a preview button, I think in the upper right
		this screen allows you to move the graphic where you
		want it.
	somehow figure out how to go back to what you were doing.
I had problems like:
     1) not knowing the trick that lets you graphically put it where you
	want it.
     2) Having the graphic appear on the wrong page.
     3) Having the wrong thing be positioned.
     4) In subsequent edits, having the graphic un-position itself.

>since this is a real problem for me as I need to insert tables, charts, and
>graphs into Word to produce draft chapters of my dissertation.

Visually, inserted graphs are distracting.  I needed them where I
needed to distract the reader...  You may not really need them.

>As it is, I assume that I have to place <whatever> and then tweak the text
>around it myself.

Not required.

>If not with Word, then how about another Mac product?

"Pagemaker", "Ready, Set, Go", and other page layout programs
have had this for awhile.  Other word processers have it, though
I don't know which ones.  Word 3.01 didn't.  I don't think Word
4.0 will wrap around a non-rectangular object.  I've no idea.  It
does have some options about how far away from the graphic to
flow to, which is one of the reasons (but not the main one) why
it is complicated to learn.  A step by step example in the
documentation would help - who knows, maybe there's one in there...

>At this point, I am seriously considering a switch.

My experience is that Mac software is ahead of PC software in
quality and features.  Even from the same vendor that does both.

>So please don't post responses that I am asking a word processor
>to do the work of DTP package.

DTP?  I do fairly complicated 8 1/2 x 11 newsletters.  There are
plenty of features in Word 4.0 that I don't use.  It generally
has the features I need.  It is probably true that it is not the
best word processor for the Mac for the list price.  I got mine
at a University discount...  This is a ploy on Microsoft's part
to hook people into using their products.  It is a good ploy - I
just wish they'd simply make the list price lower, since that is
such a better ploy.

>Even with Waterloo Script on my IMB mainframe
>(OK, so it actually belongs to Penn State) I can kind of do these types of
>things by dumping floating blocks.

Machines such as the PC & Mac have generally been years and dollars
ahead of mainframe capabilities for things like this.

What i'd like to see is something that will take a plain text
file, perhaps imported from some other system, and import it into
Word, preserving paragraphs.  It is a real pain deleting the
paragraph marks.

Stephen
suitti@haddock.ima.isc.com

meldal@ithink.Stanford.EDU (Sigurd Meldal) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  

>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  

I just tried it, following the procedure described in the manual under
"position", and it worked. Word does have this feature, at least for
rectangular inserts. I do not know how to make it work for other
shapes, it anybody has figured it out, please tell me.

FullWrite Professional has it for other shapes as well, but that word
processor has other problems.

>Also, is there a way to tell Word to automatically number a new document with
>the next logical page number from the previously printed document. Again,
>I keep my chapters in separtate files.  I then print the whole thing by
>choosing the appropriate file under the Next File selection of Page Setup.
>While this works to print all chapters, I have to manually change ahead of
>time the starting page number for each chapter.  Again, am I missing
>something?  I admit I haven't read the 4.0 documentation as closely as I
>csign have, but I have been unable to find a way of doing this.

Yes there is. Check the document command in your manual (page 52).	




-- 
Sigurd Meldal

Hard mail: 
	ERL 456		     | Internet:  meldal@anna.stanford.edu
        Computer Systems Lab.|	      	    
	Stanford University  | BitNet: meldal%anna.stanford.edu@forsythe.bitnet
	Stanford CA 94305    | Uucp: ...decwrl!glacier!shasta!anna!meldal
	USA		     |

phone: +1 415 723 6027
fax:   +1 415 725 7398

clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu (Chaz Larson) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
>I have seen a lot of people posting their complaints of MS Word 4.0 lately.
>I guess I'd like to add a couple of pointed questions myself.
>
>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  
>
>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0. 

This is indeed possible.
"Reference to Microsoft Word"
Page Layout:      pp 241-248
Position command: pp 279-284

>Also, is there a way to tell Word to automatically number a new document with
>the next logical page number from the previously printed document.  

This is also possible.
"Reference to Microsoft Word"
Long Documents:   pp 168-170

>I admit I haven't read the 4.0 documentation as closely..

Don't feel too bad.  The Word documentation and index is slighty less
comprehensible than well-worn heiroglyphics, IMHO.

Glad to help.

<chaz>




-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Chaz Larson - clarson@ux.acs.umn.edu
"Great Scott! This 9 foot alien woman is a swinger! 
 ...and she has the hots for me!!!"                - Flaming Carrot

prg@bonnie.ATT.COM (Paul R. Gloudemans) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu>, Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
> Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
> to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  I don't think
> the poster used these types of terms, but that was how I interpreted the
> request (I lost the original post). ...
> To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  However,

Select the object, Graphic Image, paragraph, whatever you wish to
anchor.  Then select Position from the Format menu.  Set the
Horizontal and Vertical positions to somewhere close.  Select Page
Preview from the File Menu, this will show you where the selected
object will print.  Select the page margins Icon, second from top.
Place the cursor over the item to be "anchored", click and drag it to
wherever on the page you want it.  It will be anchored in that
position.  Word 4.0 will flow text around the anchored object.

> Also, is there a way to tell Word to automatically number a new document with
> the next logical page number from the previously printed document.  ...

For all but the first file in the chain, select Document from the
Format menu and clear the Number Pages From: box, don't set to 0, make
sure its blank.  This will cause Word to number pages sequentially
across multiple files.

Hope I got all that right.  Comments from anyone else?

Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) (02/23/90)

I would like to thank all of those who respondend to my requests about
positioning graphics and tying them to a particular page location.  Somehow,
I had overlooked the appropriate sections in the manual.  I especially want
to thank those who responded to me in a polite manner.  More of that later.

To position graphics in a document, everyone pointed out that you need to
use the position command.

To have page numbers in the next file start with the next logical page number,
you tell word to begin page numbering with 0.

I also thank the responders who pointed out that FullWrite can do the
positioning.  I think I will stay with Word, however.  I have an SE, and even
with 2.5 meg of ram, I have heard that FullWrite is kind of slow.  Even if it
wasn't, I have been generally very satisfied with using Word 4.0.

This is the end of the summary, and I would now like to raise a new issue.
While I admit I was remiss in not finding these answers in the manual
myself, I would like to ask if my question violated in some sense the spirit
of this newsgroup?  I received several fairly nasty replies insinuating that
either 1) I was not a registered owner of Word; 2) I should carefully
read and memorize manuals more carefully (and when I can't find a topic in an
index because all software manufacturers use slightly different terminology
that I should repeat step 2 until I get it right); or 3) I was somehow
flaming Microsoft Word by questioning whether it had certain features or
not.

In response to 1), yes indeed I am a legal owner of Word 4.0.  In response to
2), I plead guilty.  I would rather use a good index that read software
documentation from front to back.  And as for 3), geez, some of you people are
so touchy.  I spent two years in the College of Liberal Arts as a consultant
prosletizing the Mac GUI interface and the superiority of Mac software.  Does
this mean that one is never supposed to question Mac software?  For example,
I find the macro capability of Word for the PC both more elegant and practical
than the approach taken in Word for the Mac where  you have to kludge around
in RTF and use an external macro program that doesn't allow for doing some of
the tasks I need.  At least, I assume that it won't since Microsoft staff
never informed me to the contrary when I sent a letter to them.

To those touchy individuals out there that think I somehow flamed Microsoft,
as if my opinion amounts to much, I want to assure you that I have found
Word a very good product for most of my uses.  I was simply asking for
help from the net about several problems that I had not found solutions to
on my own, and which I assumed I could then tap into the collective wisdom
of the net.  By doing so, I got both of my problems solved.  Thanks again to
those who helped me out on that.

If I did something wrong, let me know.

I'll continue to read this newsgroup because it usually contains useful
information, despite the occasional few who always seem ready to flame someone
or something.  So, flame away.

Scott  q8n@psuvm.edu

skyer@quantime.co.uk (Susannah Skyer) (02/23/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:

>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  
>
>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  

Not so. Check out the Position command, under the Format menu.
Admittedly, this is not the easiest command to use (it's not
select-and-drag, nor is it WYSIWYG) but it allows you to put any 
graphic or paragraph in general wherever you want it w/i the printable
area of the page.

The text automatically wraps around if you position something w/i
text.

(Personally, I prefer using PageMaker to do things like this, since
it has more options, but as you realize, Word is not a complete DTP
package.)

>Also, is there a way to tell Word to automatically number a new document with
>the next logical page number from the previously printed document.  
>Again, I keep my chapters in separate files.  

When you keep your chapters in separate files, you do have to use
the Next File feature to keep printing the next one, and then you'll
have to manually change the page numbers for each chapter.

However, Word has another feature for this that's better (I think):
make each chapter into a separate section.

Using the Section command, you can choose where you want each section
to start (e.g., on an odd page every time) and you can assign different
headers and footers to each section. This way, you can have distinct
chapters and let Word worry about the pagination.

Good luck!

Susannah Skyer
skyer@quantime.co.uk

levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) (02/24/90)

In article <90053.210038Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
|While I admit I was remiss in not finding these answers in the manual
|myself, I would like to ask if my question violated in some sense the spirit
|of this newsgroup?  I received several fairly nasty replies insinuating that
|either 1) I was not a registered owner of Word; 2) I should carefully
|read and memorize manuals more carefully (and when I can't find a topic in an
|index because all software manufacturers use slightly different terminology
|that I should repeat step 2 until I get it right); or 3) I was somehow
|flaming Microsoft Word by questioning whether it had certain features or
|not.

This is all nonsense, IMHO.  It was a perfectly reasonable sort of
question to ask, especially given the Word manuals.  Responses like 1
above are simply out of line, and those like 3 are irrelevant.  A
reasonable response could range from a simple "You can do it, it's in
the manual" to a full description of the steps--and responses of these
types were in fact posted.  If you don't feel like doing that
much, don't do anything (which is my approach 90% of the time).

Grump.	/JBL
=
Nets: levin@bbn.com  |  "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's
 or {...}!bbn!levin  |  bureau that morning.  Wide-eyed and distraught, she
POTS: (617)873-3463  |  stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor."

englandr@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Scott Englander) (02/25/90)

In article <90052.210048Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu> Q8N@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott D. Camp) writes:
>Recently, I saw a post where the person was asking about anchoring a graphic
>to a page location and then having Word flow text around it.  I don't think
 
>To the best of my knowledge, this is not possible with Word 4.0.  However,
>since this is a real problem for me as I need to insert tables, charts, and
>graphs into Word to produce draft chapters of my dissertation.  As it
>
It certainly is.  I just wrote a 250 pp thesis, and made extensive use
of the Position command.  Simply select the paragraph(s) (graphic,
table, text, etc.) and use Position.  The preview button in the dialog
will let you move it (them) around by eye, which you can also do in
Print Preview.  To change a position, you can simply double-click on the
little black box that appears in to the left of a positioned object
when codes are showing.  Read the manual for more info.

The feature actually works pretty well, except when it comes to
footnotes.  The problem is that as you change an object's position, text
containing footnote references may be moved onto the next or previous
page, which then leaves more room at the bottom... you get the idea.
Usually you can fiddle around and finally get it the way you want it by
physically cutting and pasting the object into a new sequential position
in the document, while in galley view (not Page View).  E.g., if you
can't get an object on the page you want, cut it and paste it one or two
paragraphs forward or back.

>I keep my chapters in separtate files.  I then print the whole thing by
>choosing the appropriate file under the Next File selection of Page Setup.
>While this works to print all chapters, I have to manually change ahead of
>time the starting page number for each chapter.  Again, am I missing
>something?  I admit I haven't read the 4.0 documentation as closely as I

Yes, again.  Just put a zero in the starting page number entry in the
Document dialog for subsequent files.  They won't be numbered right on
screen, but when you print it out, the printed version will have
sequential page numbers.

-- 

                                               - Scott