ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) (03/12/90)
I have alot of screenfonts, but the way the Mac puts different styles into the font menus is very confusing. For example, the LetterGothic show up in the menu as: B Letter Gothic Bold BI Letter Gothic Bold Italic I Letter Gothic Italic Letter Gothic where Times just shows up as Times. My question is, why do the different styles for some fonts show up in the font menu and others don't. The menu gets increadibly cluttered with a significant number of fonts. Also in the Font/DA Mover, the italicized and bold styles show up in those styles for some fonts (like Times) and show up in their names (B *whatever* Bold I *whatever* Italic) in other fonts (like Letter Gothic). How can I make all of my fonts behave like Times?? Len Schultz
kanefsky@cs.umn.edu (Steve Kanefsky) (03/13/90)
In article <cZyo5eC00WBLE1o1kH@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >I have alot of screenfonts, but the way the Mac puts different styles >into the font menus is very confusing. For example, the LetterGothic >show up in the menu as: >B Letter Gothic Bold >BI Letter Gothic Bold Italic >I Letter Gothic Italic >Letter Gothic > >where Times just shows up as Times. > >My question is, why do the different styles for some fonts show up in >the font menu and others don't. The menu gets increadibly cluttered >with a significant number of fonts. It's not the Mac's fault that your fonts have separate menu entries for each style variation. That's just the way Adobe (and perhaps other type vendors) distributes them. When you think about it, a true italic or bold typeface really is separate from the plain style of that typeface. Unfortunately, many Mac users have become accustomed to the standard quickdraw way of generating italics (i.e. just slant all the plain characters over towards the right. Yuck!). Originally, the only way to display *real* italics and other style variations was to have separate fonts, hence "I Letter Gothic Italic" (I guess the preceding "I" (or "B" or "BI" or "C", etc.) is so all similarly- styled fonts will be grouped together in the fonts menu). However, now that NFNTs have come along, it is possible to have "families" of fonts, with the relationships between fonts made explicit in the NFNT resource. With the aid of utilities like Font Harmony, you can merge all your style variations into a single NFNT and get true italics on-screen in the usual way (choose the font, then the italic style). Personally, I like having the individual styles in the font menu (as long as I can access the fonts in a dialog box with a scrolling list, since long scrolling menus are slow and difficult to deal with). Additionally, you can replace your Apple-supplied Times, Palatino, etc. fonts with the Adobe-supplied NFNT versions, and get true italics on-screen (and you won't need to use Font Harmony, just Font/DA mover 3.8). The reason style variations of these fonts have never appeared in your menus is because Apple doesn't even supply the styled versions of the screen fonts. Finally, you can also use Adobe Type manager to reduce your menu clutter. Just install ATM and only the plain versions of the screen fonts and ATM will be able to generate the styled versions using the downloadable printer fonts (although not as nicely as bitmap fonts at small point sizes). Hope this helps, -- Steve Kanefsky kanefsky@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu
dkletter@adobe.COM (Akbar & Jeff's SUPPORT GROUP for the vaguely dissatisfied) (03/13/90)
In article <cZyo5eC00WBLE1o1kH@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >I have alot of screenfonts, but the way the Mac puts different styles >into the font menus is very confusing. > >where Times just shows up as Times. > >My question is, why do the different styles for some fonts show up in >the font menu and others don't. The menu gets increadibly cluttered >with a significant number of fonts. > >Also in the Font/DA Mover, the italicized and bold styles show up in >those styles for some fonts (like Times) and show up in their names (B >*whatever* Bold I *whatever* Italic) in other fonts (like Letter >Gothic). > >How can I make all of my fonts behave like Times?? good question. i will attempt to answer... your Adobe typeface bitmaps (or "screen fonts") contain all kinds of information such as and FOND ID and kerning information, but it also has a list of PostScript names and "Apple Menu Names". each application handles fonts a bit differently than the other. Adobe Illustrator, for instance, parses the PostScript font names for it's font menu whereas most other applications like MacWrite use the Apple Menu Name, which Apple has documented how to do so. the problem is that some applications like Microsoft Word used to go about it in a different way then most. one of those ways was to have a font menu that was so narrow that you'd get a list that would look essentially like this: Letter Goth ... Letter Goth ... Letter Goth ... Letter Goth ... without the B or I or BI "prefix" and it would be impossible to tell just which is the plain face and which is the bolditalic face, etc. since we couldn't just leave our typefaces as they were (because Word is too popular to cry "not our bug") we had to at least do something to fix it (even if it was a problem that really wasn't ours). we came up with "font prefixing" method which essentually meant that when you went into your MS Word font menu, things would look more like this: B Stone Sans ... I Stone Sans ... Sb Stone San ... and so on... a nice simple solution, no? however, Microsoft has finally changed their font menu-ing system and so this fix isn't really neccessary any longer. we've begun to drop the use of prefixes with our newer typefaces in recognizing this. however, as you have noticed, the Font DA mover still does something similar to what MS Word did. well, because there will be no Font/DA mover in System 7.0 and because if you click on the desired face, you can see just what the full name is at the bottom, we've decided that it is possible to live with that minor headache for the time being. when we will go back and change our older typeface packages to reflect this dropping of the prefix change will happen, i don't really know for sure. you see, the problem we're facing now is the issue of backward compatibility. if we were to drop the prefixes from our older typeface packages, we could find ourselves facing a hoard of unhappy customers. why? because their old documents created with the prefixed fonts won't be able to find these "new" non-prefixed font names because they are essentually different. life also would become so much more so complicated if the document is a newsletter with many different typefaces and styles in varying point sizes. unfortunately, you're still left with the problem of the fact that your font menu is alphabetized and so all the 'B blahblah Bold' fonts are put together, etc. and that makes your font menu a big long mess. one suggestion that has been mentioned is that you could condense your NFNTs into one single face in the menu. you would still be faced with the problem that your application would not recognize this new font for your older documents created before that change was made to the font. so you give up having a long menu, but have to accept another "minor" problem detail. most of this sounds like mostly hacks and i for one, realise that it's asking a bit much of the customer but we're hoping that they can bear with it until we come up with a better solution. anyways, the reason why your Times may not have the Prefix is simple, you are probably using the Apple versions which only have the plain faces and do not have the prefixes. our version of Times (that comes with ATM) does indeed have the aforementioned prefixes. i hope this has helped and hasn't caused any further confusion! 2;^) later.--d --- "Yeah... but does it work?" -- Allan Holdsworth
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (03/13/90)
In article <1990Mar12.234628.22333@cs.umn.edu> kanefsky@cs.umn.edu (Steve Kanefsky) writes: >In article <cZyo5eC00WBLE1o1kH@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >>I have alot of screenfonts, but the way the Mac puts different styles >>into the font menus is very confusing. For example, the LetterGothic >>show up in the menu as: >>B Letter Gothic Bold >>BI Letter Gothic Bold Italic >>I Letter Gothic Italic >>Letter Gothic >However, now that NFNTs have come along, it is possible to have "families" >of fonts, with the relationships between fonts made explicit in the NFNT >resource. This still doesn't solve the problem of fonts which don't fall into the standard Mac bold/italic/outline/shadow/compressed deal. What about font families with more than one level of weight? Helvetica Plain, Light, Bold, Super Chunky, Mega-Lite, No-cal, etc. There should be a standard way to access these as one family, both from the programmer's point of view, and the user's. The programmer should be able to make a call like AddResMenu(), but tailored for font styles. Given a font name, something like AddFontStyleMenu(menuHandle, fontName). along with a more flexible way of using the style that the user selects. Instead of using hardcoded numbers for different styles, there should be some way of allowing for the standard styles, plus extras if neccesary. Ideally, the user would be able to pick a font, and then pick a style from a popup or an h-menu. If Super-Extra-Heavy-Bold exists, it should show up in the menu. I suppose this involves rethinking fonts yet again, but NFNTs don't seem to be catching on, and it might help to actually design something that works better. (one might say something which works as it should.) It's hard to address backwards compatibility in cases like this, but the font situation is getting well-nigh ridiculous. I'm not suggesting that I have the answer, but it'd be nice if someone bright at apple could come up with something a little less frustrating. Perhaps it'll come out with the line layout manager? (which by itself sounds like a great thing if rumors are true. Just think! ff will automagically turn into an ff ligature, and if you backspace, will turn back into an f!) -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu <<-- extra heavy chunky at times
roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) (03/14/90)
In <3262@pur-phy> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: > Ideally, the user would be able to pick a font, and then pick a style from > a popup or an h-menu. If Super-Extra-Heavy-Bold exists, it should show up > in the menu. Here's a human interface question. Let's say you wanted to make a 4-level pull-right menu for fonts, so you can set family, size, weight, and slant, i.e. Helvetica 18 demi oblique. The question is, which order do you want to have them? Like I did above, or you you prefer Helvetica oblique demi 18, or 18 Helvetica oblique demi, or ..... -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy "My karma ran over my dogma"
sdh@flash.bellcore.com (Stephen D Hawley) (03/15/90)
In article <1990Mar14.134618.12628@phri.nyu.edu> roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: >In <3262@pur-phy> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >> Ideally, the user would be able to pick a font, and then pick a style from >> a popup or an h-menu. If Super-Extra-Heavy-Bold exists, it should show up >> in the menu. > > Here's a human interface question. Let's say you wanted to make a >4-level pull-right menu for fonts, so you can set family, size, weight, and >slant, i.e. Helvetica 18 demi oblique. The question is, which order do you >want to have them? Like I did above, or you you prefer Helvetica oblique >demi 18, or 18 Helvetica oblique demi, or ..... Please don't do this. Honestly. It is NOT a win in human factors in the least. A better approach is to pop up a dialog box with 3 lists (font, style, size), an area of editable text for a demo, and an ok and cancel button. The win is that most font changes require more than one change in the font. Better to have the characteristics up front than require several menu pokes to get at them. Style changes, which are relatively frequent, should be in the menu as a redundancy. It turns out that this is not a hard thing to implement. I had to do this for a current project, and it took me all of 1 day, most of which was spent on little details, like adding a drop shadow around the demo box. Steve Hawley sdh@flash.bellcore.com A noun's a special kind of word. It's ev'ry name you ever heard. I find it quite interesting, A noun's a person place or thing.
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (03/15/90)
In article <20938@bellcore.bellcore.com> sdh@flash.UUCP (Stephen D Hawley) writes: >In article <1990Mar14.134618.12628@phri.nyu.edu> roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: >>In <3262@pur-phy> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >>> Ideally, the user would be able to pick a font, and then pick a style from >>> a popup or an h-menu. If Super-Extra-Heavy-Bold exists, it should show up >>> in the menu. >Please don't do this. Honestly. It is NOT a win in human factors in the >least. > >A better approach is to pop up a dialog box with 3 lists (font, style, size), >an area of editable text for a demo, and an ok and cancel button. The win is >that most font changes require more than one change in the font. Yes, I agree with you, but there is nothing wrong with doing it both ways. It seems that most modern word processors have a character format dialog box to supplement the menu choices. However, I can't think of any one type of attribute (font, size, style) that I could honestly say was not neccesary in a menu form. You switch between normal and italics, you switch between 24 point and 12 point, you switch between Garamond and Courier. What's wrong with menus *and* an all-inclusive dialog? -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu
jhlieske@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jay Henry Lieske) (03/15/90)
In article <20938@bellcore.bellcore.com> sdh@flash.UUCP (Stephen D Hawley) writes: >In article <1990Mar14.134618.12628@phri.nyu.edu> roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: >>In <3262@pur-phy> sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Sho Kuwamoto) writes: >>> Ideally, the user would be able to pick a font, and then pick a style from >>> a popup or an h-menu. If Super-Extra-Heavy-Bold exists, it should show up >>> in the menu. >> >> [roy smith wonders about multilevel hierarchical menus] > >Please don't do this. Honestly. It is NOT a win in human factors in the >least. > [stephen hawley says no to multi-h.menus, yes to dialogs] I think it would be a pain to go to a dialog every time I wanted some special version of Helvetica. Why not give each font name in the menu a single submenu with all possible styles? With Times, there would be four options, with Helvetica 12 or so. Styles like outline and underline could go in another menu. To minimize mouse-moving, the last chosen style in the submenu would be the default. -- Jay Lieske | Department of Geology jhlieske@phoenix.princeton.edu | Princeton University in exile in central jersey | Princeton, NJ 08544
ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) (03/15/90)
Thankyou for that explanation, Akbar. It was very thourough. But it left me with a question. You mentioned that there will be no font/DA mover in 7.0? How, exactly, will it be different? Would it still be possible to use my current postscript and screen fonts? Len
dkletter@adobe.COM (Akbar & Jeff's SUPPORT GROUP for the vaguely dissatisfied) (03/16/90)
In article <IZzookS00WBK43BGJo@andrew.cmu.edu> ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >Thankyou for that explanation, Akbar. It was very thourough. your welcome, Jeff--er John... 2;^) >But it left me with a question. You mentioned that there will be no >font/DA mover in 7.0? How, exactly, will it be different? the difference will be in the way you load your screen fonts into the system. our preliminary documentation for system 7.0 (in the Toolbox chapter) on page 45 says this about it: "In Release 7.0, the Finder will include a new mechanism for moving fonts into the system file. The new mechanism must be used to recognize, update, copy, move and remove all font resources. Existing resources ('FONT', 'FOND' and 'NFNT') will behave exactly as they currently do, whereas the new 'sfnt' resource will be integrated into the system. The user will be able to distinguish the difference between bitmaps and outlines" that's kind of sketchy but, the way i understood it was that you would only have to place your bitmaps and outlines into the system folder and then they would be automatically installed. >Would it still be possible to use my current postscript and screen fonts? most definately. Apple has made a commitment to allow our fonts and ATM to work with the new system. there would be no need to buy "new" PostScript typefaces all over again. hope this helps.--d --- "I've read all your letters and, well i have only one thing to say... get a life people! I mean, it's only a T.V. show... we, did it as a lark." --William Shatner
ke2y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (03/16/90)
In article <1990Mar14.134618.12628@phri.nyu.edu>, roy@phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes: > > Here's a human interface question. Let's say you wanted to make a > 4-level pull-right menu for fonts, so you can set family, size, weight, and > slant, i.e. Helvetica 18 demi oblique. The question is, which order do you > want to have them? Like I did above, or you you prefer Helvetica oblique > demi 18, or 18 Helvetica oblique demi, or ..... > -- > Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute > 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 > roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu -OR- {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy > "My karma ran over my dogma" Well, I just finished sorting through all this Font Menu stuff, especially that concerning weights. Roy - I don't know if I'm really qualified to answer your question, but I'll throw some advice your way: DON'T use 4-level heirarchal menus!!! Not only do Apple Human Interface guidelines say that hierarchal menus with more than 2 levels are a big no-no, but if you've got a 9" screen, you'll run into BIG problems trying to fit New Century Schlbk __ -48__ -Demi__ -Oblique on your screen! My suggestion is that you try one of two approaches: 1. Create a 'Text Attribute' dialog. Inside, have pop up menus of Font, Size, Weight, Slant and Misc. (for Shadow, Outline, etc.) (Eg. something similar to the MS Word 4.0 'Character' dialog, but add a menu for weights instead of the 'Bold' checkbox) 2. Use a 'Text' menu, with hierarchal menu options for Font, Size, Weight, Slant, etc. This will probably make it a bit faster since menus seem to be quicker to access, esp. when changing only one item. Also menus tend to 'draw' faster than dialogs. A drawback is that it can clutter up a menu bar a great deal. With either approach, I would suggest putting in a 'Status' area, displaying the 'full' name of the current font. As to order, I suggest font family first, followed by weight, slant, and size. I'm not sure where I'd put other style modifiers. Hope this is helpful. -- John PS: I wish the big names would offer at least 'Weight' menus instead of the standard 'Bold' option. If it seems to big a hassle to 'standard' users, it could be a 'Power-User' option - i.e. only under 'Full Menus' or toggle through Preferences type feature. =============================================================================== | John T. Chapman | | | | Witty message under repair... | | ke2y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu | | | ke2y@crnlvax5.bitnet | | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: These opinions are mine. You can't have them! | ===============================================================================
derosa@cell.mot.COM (John DeRosa) (03/16/90)
ls1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Leonard John Schultz) writes: >But it left me with a question. You mentioned that there will be no >font/DA mover in 7.0? How, exactly, will it be different? Would it >still be possible to use my current postscript and screen fonts? In System 7.0 adding fonts and DA's is like using suitcase or font/da juggler, just drop the suitcases into a folder and like magic they appear. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= = John DeRosa, Motorola, Inc, Cellular Infrastructure Division = = e-mail: ...uunet!motcid!derosaj = = I do not hold by employer responsible for any information in this message = = nor am I responsible for anything my employer may do or say. = =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
a544@mindlink.UUCP (Rick McCormack) (03/18/90)
Some good ideas in the MacUser of Vol.6 #1, Jan. 1990 (POWER TOOLS, pp245 ff). The article called _Font Woes_ addresses the current state of affairs, and looks fuzzily into the future. Not much help in solving the problem, but a great deal of solace for those of us who barely understand electricity (I still prefer to believe in magic -- It's so much less stressful.)
brecher@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher) (03/18/90)
In article <1696@diamond2.UUCP>, derosa@cell.mot.COM (John DeRosa) writes: > In System 7.0 adding fonts and DA's is like using [Suitcase II] or > [Font/DA Juggler or Master Juggler], just [drop] the suitcases into a > folder and like magic they appear. I have never heard any such description (that is attributable to Apple) of System 7.0. I have heard that fonts must (in the absense of a third party product) be installed into the System *file*. While Finder 7.0 should make this just as easy as dropping them into a folder, is is my impression that any such System file changes won't take effect until after the next restart. -- brecher@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher)
Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Philip Craig) (03/20/90)
In a message to All [19 Mar 90 06:17:00] Steve Brecher writes: >In article <1696@diamond2.UUCP>, derosa@cell.mot.COM (John DeRosa) writes: >> In System 7.0 adding fonts and DA's is like using [Suitcase II] or >> [Font/DA Juggler or Master Juggler], just [drop] the suitcases into a >> folder and like magic they appear. >I have never heard any such description (that is attributable to Apple) >of System 7.0. I have heard that fonts must (in the absense of a third >party product) be installed into the System *file*. While Finder 7.0 >should make this just as easy as dropping them into a folder, is is my >impression that any such System file changes won't take effect until >after the next restart. Well, I guess *you* should know, being the author of a "third party product" and all, but the demo of system 7 that I saw would allow users to drop fonts and DAs into a file called System. The file could be double-clicked on and then it would open up like a folder and fonts and DAs could be dragged in and out. I also noticed that new DAs were available immediately they were dragged in -- no need for a restart. I didn't get to see if the same were true for fonts though. -- Philip Craig - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22.27!Philip.Craig ARPA: Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG
mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Michael Thomas Niehaus) (03/21/90)
> Philip Craig - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 > UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22.27!Philip.Craig > ARPA: Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG I'm really getting tired of these messages that go flying off the right hand side of my screen. Please put a return at the end of every line (and if your system can't do that, fix it). I would hate to think that my opinion of FidoNet is adversely affected by such things... -Michael p.s. Certain people who post one line replies also affect my opinion. -- Michael Niehaus UUCP: <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!mithomas Apple Student Rep ARPA: mithomas@bsu-cs.bsu.edu Ball State University AppleLink: ST0374 (from UUCP: st0374@applelink.apple.com)
macman@wpi.wpi.edu (Christopher Silverberg) (03/22/90)
In article <10953@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mithomas@bsu-cs.UUCP (Michael Thomas Niehaus) writes: >> Philip Craig - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 >> UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22.27!Philip.Craig >> ARPA: Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG >I'm really getting tired of these messages that go flying off the right hand >side of my screen. Please put a return at the end of every line (and if >your system can't do that, fix it). I would hate to think that my opinion >of FidoNet is adversely affected by such things... I think it must be YOUR system, or your terminal setup causing the problems. I haven't seen any messages that fly dont format appropriately across the screen. If the message does not contain returns, then your terminal program should autowrap appropriately. You're a mac person... you should know that. ============================================================================== == Chris Silverberg, WPI Box 719 ========= BBS Sysop: Main Street U.S.A. ===== == USENET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu ============ 2400 baud - (508) 832-7725 ======== == BITNET: macman@wpi.bitnet ============= Fido: 322/575 - Second Sight BBS == == GEnie: C.Silverberg ================== America Online: Silverberg ========
Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Philip Craig) (03/23/90)
In a message to All [22 Mar 90 06:27:00] Christopher Silverberg writes: >In article <10953@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> mithomas@bsu-cs.UUCP (Michael >Thomas Niehaus) writes: >>> Philip Craig - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 >>> UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22.27!Philip.Craig >>> ARPA: Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG >>I'm really getting tired of these messages that go flying off the right hand >>side of my screen. Please put a return at the end of every line (and if >>your system can't do that, fix it). I would hate to think that my opinion >>of FidoNet is adversely affected by such things... >I think it must be YOUR system, or your terminal setup causing the problems. >I haven't seen any messages that fly dont format appropriately across the >screen. If the message does not contain returns, then your terminal program >should autowrap appropriately. You're a mac person... you should know that. So which is it, UseNeters? Do I need to do something about my setup, or is Chris right? I don't want your opinion of FidoNet adversely affected by such things either. -- Philip Craig - via FidoNet node 1:282/33 UUCP: ...!uunet!imagery!22.27!Philip.Craig ARPA: Philip.Craig@p27.f22.n282.z1.FIDONET.ORG
macman@wpi.wpi.edu (Christopher Silverberg) (03/24/90)
PC> So which is it, UseNeters? Do I need to do something about my PC> setup, or is Chris right? Let me publically apologize to Michael who i kinda blasted about fido messages that didn't have any returns. What I later found out was that messages coming from SmogasBoard are coming without returns. I already wrote a message to the sysop informing him of this problem which may not be his fault, but the gateway he is using, since messages coming from the gateway in Ohio are coming through just fine. So, yes... some messages are coming in incorrectly. If you are using a point mail setup, you may want to press return at the end of every line, but this is NOT an unsolvable problem... just takes some investigation. Good luck, and sorry about my misleading article. ============================================================================== == Chris Silverberg, WPI Box 719 ========= BBS Sysop: Main Street U.S.A. ===== == USENET: macman@wpi.wpi.edu ============ 2400 baud - (508) 832-7725 ======== == BITNET: macman@wpi.bitnet ============= Fido: 322/575 - Second Sight BBS == == GEnie: C.Silverberg ================== America Online: Silverberg ========