GHGAQBA@BLEKUL11.BITNET (Pottie Karl) (03/30/90)
No , I'm not about to participate in the discussion which computer is better: mac or amiga. I'd like to say a word or two about the mentality of mac users versus amiga users. Until recently i had an amiga, because i couldn't afford a mac, so I know about 10 persons who have an amiga. I bought a mac half a year ago, and since i noticed that i hardly ever used my amiga any more, so i sold it . I now know about 7 mac-users. Let me start off by an example: we had to write a paper for a university project, and we always gathered at the place of an amiga user. The paper involved mixing graphics and text. Prowrite was considered being too slow and having too poor font resolution to print on a 24-pin printer. So the amiga user reverted to this: all text was typed in an editor !!!, every paragraph was typed on one continuous horizontal line. After that, the text was transported to a (very powerful) DTP program, which uses vector-fonts for hires printer output. Another Amiga user claimed he would use the same procedure for writing his thesis. I think this example gives a pretty good idea of the mentality of an Amiga user: unprofessionalism. No PC or Mac user would ever think of using an editor for word processing. Another example: ergonomy. This means adapting the working situation to the Human being, and not adapting the Human to the situation. An ergonomic term for CRTs is often 'flicker free'. Most Amiga users consider this term to be equivalent for 'non-interlaced'. Actually ergonomics think of flicker being present in any computer screen, even if not visible for the naked eye. And of flicker free CRTs being very high frequency monitors. Most Amiga users put up with interlace, while other computer users consider using e.g. even a CGA display as being professionally unacceptable. O.K. except for the video display, the hardware concept of an Amiga is probably much more modern and efficient than that of a Mac. But Amiga users really seem to be fixed onto their hardware, while Mac users seem to be more concerned by a consistent software concept. A small example is the Clipboard Mechanism. This allows almost all software ever written on the mac, to behave as one large integrated system. If you program the Mac, you have to obey very strickt rules on interfacing to the user. As a consequence , Mac programmers will hardly ever 'hack' or program directly to the hardware. Amiga programmers will say 'that's no fun'. What are we concerned about: fun or hardware independant software ? When you criticize an Amiga, you often get a reply like this: * when you use the Flicker Fixer , you get a nice picture * Workbench 1.4 will fix that... * the new chip set will fix that ... .... Well, I've never even seen a flicker fixer live, so I certainly don't know anybody who uses one. And I have no time for vapourware-talk. Finally: Amiga users only seem to feel 'good' about their computer if they can put another computer down. Mac users don't have this urge, because the don't need to. Is it perhaps because Amiga users have a bit of an inferiority complex ? I think the Amiga is great for some purposes. I just can't stand to hear people who have no professional intentions, put down a professional computer. It would be the same for criticizing a formula 1 car for being too expensive, and saying that one should better buy a nice family car to drive to work.We're talking different catagories here. A lot of the money you pay for a Mac covers professional support by dealers. Amigas are sold in super-markets. Many commodore dealers over here simply refuse to sell Amiga, because they know nothing about it, and can't support it. Be careful: I don't claim that the Amiga can't be used as a professional computer. I just don't like Amiga mentality. Amiga people still think like CBM64 , Spectrum, Sinclair or MSX users. And that's what many of them used to be. I was 'raised' with an Apple //c . A teacher of mine once said it is your first computer that sticks to you. And I guess that's true. Sorry this document is very unstructured. I just typed what came to mind, and this IBM mainframe doesn't allow very extensive editing. ******************************************************************************* * disclaimer : Don't shoot me, I'm harmless *******************************************************************************
JKT100@psuvm.psu.edu (JKT) (03/30/90)
In article <29Mar1990@BLEKUL11.BITNET>, (Potti Karl) says: > >No , I'm not about to participate in the discussion which computer is better: >mac or amiga. Funny - you did a pretty good job of Amiga bashing; mostly because you are horribly mis-informed. Before I go further, my response honestly isn't going to bash anyone (possibly except the previous poster)... I use both Macs and Amigas daily, and I happen to like them both. Thus endeth my credentials. >Let me start off by an example: we had to write a paper for a >university project, and we always gathered at the place of an amiga user. >The paper involved mixing graphics and text. ... The Amiga user >reverted to this: all text was typed in an editor !!!, every >paragraph was typed on one continuous horizontal line. After that, >the text was transported to a (very powerful) DTP program. >Another Amiga user claimed he would use the same procedure for writing >his thesis. Please don't assume all Amiga users do this... This person was really being very ignorant about how to enter text. His actions were silly enough to be compared to a Mac user typing an entire paper directly into the Clipboard or Scrapbook. He certainly did have other, much better options. By the way, it's a pretty poor editor that keeps all text on one long line - there are plenty to choose from that do better... Public domain too. >I think this example gives a pretty good idea of the mentality of an Amiga >user: unprofessionalism. No PC or Mac user would ever think of using an >editor for word processing. Nope. MANY MANY PC owners use KEDIT to enter their text. I'm talking professional writers here. (example: One of my English prof's wrote his articles in KEDIT. We're talking Popular Science cover articles here.) Some writers don't like to be burdened with formatting the text until the raw entry is complete. It's simply a matter of their personal preference. >O.K. except for the video display, the hardware concept of an Amiga is >probably much more modern and efficient than that of a Mac. But Amiga >users really seem to be fixed onto their hardware, while Mac users seem >to be more concerned by a consistent software concept. >A small example is the Clipboard Mechanism. This allows almost all software >ever written on the mac, to behave as one large integrated system. True. The Clipboard concept on the Mac is a joy. However, do not be fooled into thinking the Amiga can't transfer files between applications, because it most certainly can. All text files, for example, are saved in a standard IFF format and can be loaded into other applications without problem. >If you program the Mac, you have to obey very strickt rules on >interfacing to the user. >As a consequence , Mac programmers will hardly ever 'hack' or program >directly to the hardware. This is simply not true at all. Yes, MOST Mac programmers don't do direct hardware calls, but it's not that hard to find a program that does. >Amiga programmers will say 'that's no fun'. What >are we concerned about: fun or hardware independant software ? Oh come on now. I can easily prove you're off base here. If an Amiga programmer does an direct hardware call, the program either breaks under newer WB versions or CPU upgrades, or won't multitask. In the Amiga world, such programs are just as common as Mac programs with hardware calls -- They're few and far-between. By the way, how do I know which Mac software misbehaves? I own A-Max, the Mac emulator for Amiga, and it works beautifully...until an application does a naughty hardware call. Granted, this usually only happens with games, but the same applies to Amiga software too. >Well, I've never even seen a flicker fixer live, so I certainly don'tw >know anybody who uses one. And I have no time for vapourware-talk. Vaporware???? I assure you the flicker fixer most certainly does exist. We have one here in an A2500 in PSU's video lab. Nice picture too. >Finally: Amiga users only seem to feel 'good' about their computer if >they can put another computer down. Mac users don't have this urge, >because they don't need to. Is it perhaps because Amiga users have a >bit of an inferiority complex ? All I have to say is if this is true, then why are you Amiga bashing here? >A lot of the money you pay for a Mac covers professional support by >dealers. Amigas are sold in super-markets. Since when? This is a blatent lie. Amigas, just like Macs, are only sold by authorized Amiga Dealers and Service Centers. >Sorry this document is very unstructured. I just typed what came to mind, >and this IBM mainframe doesn't allow very extensive editing. Aha - I think this is the real point. You get out of a computer what you put into it. Your mainframe (just like ours) allows pretty decent editing...IF YOU LEARN HOW TO USE IT. The Mac is great because it is easy to use. It has a friendly interface and is wonderful for the introductory computer user who doesn't want to learn many commands and type everything in. I recommend Macs to folks who need a friendly machine. I use a Mac for most word processing applications. However, I find that the friendliness of the Mac gets in the way when I want raw power. I miss a CLI on the Mac for such things as unarcing, terminal emulation, file maintenance, raw text entry, etc. This is why I sometimes I'd like to "turn off" the GUI and get more into the guts of the machine. Every computer has its advantages and disadvantages. I see little need for posts like this that claim the Mac is the answer to all computer needs - it isn't. Neither is the Amiga, nor any PC, or the NeXT, or ANY computer. Ideally, we'd have access to many computers and be able to use whichever one suits specific needs best. This is why I own an Amiga and have A-Max ready for those applications which best befit a Mac. Kurt -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- || Kurt Tappe (814) 862-8630 || Japan has almost no lawyers. Is it || || 600 E. Pollock Rd., #5705 || any wonder we're getting beat out?? || || State College, PA 16801 --------------------------------------|| || jkt100@psuvm.bitnet or jkt100@psuvm.psu.edu || || or jkt100%psuvm.bitnet@psuvax1 QLink: KurtTappe || ----------------------------------------------------------------------
gat@gator.cacs.usl.edu (Gary Thompson) (03/30/90)
GHGAQBA@BLEKUL11.BITNET writes: [ discussion about specific Mac and Amiga stuff deleted... ] >Finally: Amiga users only seem to feel 'good' about their computer if they >can put another computer down. Mac users don't have this urge, because they >don't need to. Is it perhaps because Amiga users have a bit of an >inferiority complex ? I wish the Mac users here were like the Mac users you know. :-) Just mentioning IBM or DOS around the local users group will elicit a lot of angry hisses. I know as I had the pleasure of demoing SoftPC to them ;-) I have seen Mac startup screens that put down the IBM, I have seen people use an IBM icon as their trash can, and I even remember a shareware game from years ago called 'Bash Big Blue' where you literally whacked the IBM corporate logo. While most of this *is* in fun, it does reveal insecurities that many Mac users still feel. I don't know many Amiga owners, but none of those I do know fit your description too well. In any case, I don't think that any one group of computer owners is particularly egregious in this way... sadly, I think we're all about the same ;-) Gary Thompson Perpetual Student University of Southwestern Louisiana gat@gator.cacs.usl.edu
matt@sapphire.jpl.nasa.gov (matt of ASTD) (03/30/90)
In article <29Mar1990202523130@BLEKUL11.BITNET> GHGAQBA@BLEKUL11.BITNET writes: >Let me start off by an example: we had to write a paper for a >university project, and we always gathered at the place of an amiga user. >The paper involved mixing graphics and text. Prowrite was considered being too >slow and having too poor font resolution to print on a 24-pin printer. So the >amiga user reverted to this: all text was typed in an editor !!!, every >paragraph was typed on one continuous horizontal line. After that, >the text was transported to a (very powerful) DTP program, which uses >vector-fonts for hires printer output. >Another Amiga user claimed he would use the same procedure for writing >his thesis. > >I think this example gives a pretty good idea of the mentality of an Amiga >user: unprofessionalism. No PC or Mac user would ever think of using an >editor for word processing. I believe that you are over-generalizing here. Just because a couple of people do really strange things to write papers does not mean that all Amiga users do this. >If you program the Mac, you have to obey very strickt rules on interfacing >to the user. >As a consequence , Mac programmers will hardly ever 'hack' or program directly >to the hardware. Amiga programmers will say 'that's no fun'. What >are we concerned about: fun or hardware independant software ? There is a lot of consistency between Amiga programs. For instance, IFF files are standard. >When you criticize an Amiga, you often get a reply like this: > * when you use the Flicker Fixer , you get a nice picture > * Workbench 1.4 will fix that... > * the new chip set will fix that ... > .... > >Well, I've never even seen a flicker fixer live, so I certainly don't know >anybody who uses one. And I have no time for vapourware-talk. So why bring it up if you don't know what you're talking about. >Finally: Amiga users only seem to feel 'good' about their computer if they can >put another computer down. Mac users don't have this urge, because the don't >need to. Is it perhaps because Amiga users have a bit of an >inferiority complex ? Another extreme over-generalization. By the way, I've meet many Mac users who consisten put down the Amiga (i.e. all those who ignorantly claim that the Amiga is only a game machine). You must not be a real Mac user because you obviously had the the urge to put down the Amiga AND EVERY AMIGA USER IN THE UNIVERSE. >I think the Amiga is great for some purposes. I just can't stand to hear >people who have no professional intentions, put down a professional computer. Poor baby. Why don't you stop reading this news group. >It would be the same for criticizing a formula 1 car for being too expensive, >and saying that one should better buy a nice family car to drive to work.We're >talking different catagories here. Anyone who buys a formula 1 car to drive to work I will criticize. I think you are intelligent enough to understand the analogy. >A lot of the money you pay for a Mac covers professional support by dealers. ...and Apple profit. >Amigas are sold in super-markets. This one sentance does two things: (1) It shows you do not know what you are talking about. You sound like a Mac user taking a cheap shot at Amigas, thus you have no credibility. (2) You prove to me that you are a jerk. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Matthew Presley send email to (presley.cs.ucla.edu)
meldal@ithink.Stanford.EDU (Sigurd Meldal) (03/30/90)
I shall not enter the fray of comparative computer bashing - to each his own. But I would like to add some meta comments to the writings of GHGAQBA@BLEKUL11.BITNET. He sketches in his impressions of how Amiga users differ negatively from Mac users. Like a good social sciences student he presents us with the sample upon which he draws his conclusions: In article <29Mar1990202523130@BLEKUL11.BITNET> GHGAQBA@BLEKUL11.BITNET writes: >I know about 10 persons who have an amiga. I bought a mac half a year ago, >and since i noticed that i hardly ever used my amiga any more, so i sold it . >I now know about 7 mac-users. So we have a total of 17 out of a population of hundreds of thousands. I guess I should have stopped there. but I read on. >Let me start off by an example: we had to write a paper for a >university project, and we always gathered at the place of an amiga user. >The paper involved mixing graphics and text. Prowrite was considered being too >slow and having too poor font resolution to print on a 24-pin printer. So the >amiga user reverted to this: all text was typed in an editor !!!, every >paragraph was typed on one continuous horizontal line. After that, >the text was transported to a (very powerful) DTP program, which uses >vector-fonts for hires printer output. >Another Amiga user claimed he would use the same procedure for writing >his thesis. > >I think this example gives a pretty good idea of the mentality of an Amiga >user: unprofessionalism. No PC or Mac user would ever think of using an >editor for word processing. Oh dear. You generalize from a sample of 7 to ALL Mac users? From a sample of 10 to ALL Amiga users? And then dare claim the word "professionalism" as part of his vocabulary? The Amiga users of the example seems very professional, given what was to be done. They recognized that the word processor did not do a satisfactory job. Analyzing the situation, they broke the job into two - text entering and formatting. Using two tools they achieved a superior (presumably?) result. Mac people do this all the time. Use an editor (and is that not a word processor - I split hairs) to enter text, then format/lay it out using a DTP program. Highly unprofessional?? He then goes on to put down the Amiga, praising the unified concept of the Macintosh, extolling the virtues of Human Orientedness (but forgets Apple Pie and Motherhood, tsk, tsk). The one paragraph that got me going was >Finally: Amiga users only seem to feel 'good' about their computer if they can >put another computer down. Mac users don't have this urge, because the don't >need to. Is it perhaps because Amiga users have a bit of an >inferiority complex ? I wonder: What urge made you devote all this typing to putting down the lowly Amiga user.Or maybe it was all tongue in cheek, and I have gotten royally pranked-upon.... You're happy with your Mac? Good. So am I. I don't really care to hear about the stupidity of people liking other machines (nor their views of me, as a Mac user). Enough. Enough I said! Begone!!!! From the desktop of Sigurd Meldal -- Hard mail: ERL 456 | Internet: meldal@anna.stanford.edu Computer Systems Lab.| Stanford University | BitNet: meldal%anna.stanford.edu@forsythe.bitnet Stanford CA 94305 | Uucp: ...decwrl!glacier!shasta!anna!meldal USA | phone: +1 415 723 6027 fax: +1 415 725 7398