mwilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) (04/07/90)
In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: >2) Cheap floppies. Certain brands are reliable... certain others > aren't. After reading through the Memcon floppy-disk report for > 1988, I'd never trust important data to a Dysan or Wabash or Xidex or ^^^^^ That's funny. Ten years ago, Dysan was extremely highly-priced and had a reputation for excellent quality. Things change, I guess. -- Mark Wilkins
CXT105@psuvm.psu.edu (Christopher Tate) (04/08/90)
In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com>, dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) says: > [ lots of good stuff about the care and feeding of floppy disks ] > >7) Improper use of high-density floppies. If you format a HD floppy in > an 800k drive, you may never be able to use it properly in a > Superdrive... it won't reformat in high-density mode properly, and > (even it it does) you may find it unreliable. (I'm told that this is > the case, but I haven't experienced it myself as I don't have a > Superdrive). > >I've seen all of these syndromes except for #7... but I've never seen any >one of them at all frequently. While I've never seen the particular behavior you describe here, I am generally unimpressed by the behaviour of the FDHD drives. One day, I tried to format a stack of HD disks in an SE that had these drives. Out of five disks, I eventually got *one* of them to format, I think on the fourth try. There seems to be a historical difficulty with Macintosh disk drives -- they generally have a hard time formatting disks. The student microcomputer lab attendants here at Penn State have come up with a standard practice for dealing with disks that fail to initialize (in old-style drives): format them in an IBM PS/2 first, then try again. It works pretty well.... Am I deluded, or do the Macs have weaker magnetic fields when they write to their disks than other computers? It would certainly seem that way.... ------- Christopher Tate | | "Idle lawyers tend to become politicians, cxt105@psuvm.psu.edu | so there is a certain social value {...}!psuvax1!psuvm.bitnet!cxt105 | in keeping them busy." cxt105@psuvm.bitnet |
hammersslammers1@oxy.edu (David J. Harr) (04/08/90)
Matthew T. Russotto says in reference to someone not seeing any floppies die in his year as an SE owner: >A year isn't NEARLY long enough. After 5 years you will have had your >share. I have to disagree with this very strongly. I have lost an average of three to four disks a month since I bought my MacII back in '87. I have had Apple disks (seven out of the eight original system disks I had), Sony's, Kodaks, TDKs, generic Egghead software disks, whatever. This has taken place even with the five floppy drives I have had installed in my machine at various times. As far as I am concerned, floppies are Write-only memory and should never ever ever have any serious data entrusted to them. David
ac08@vaxb.acs.unt.edu (04/08/90)
In article <90097.131238CXT105@psuvm.psu.edu>, CXT105@psuvm.psu.edu (Christopher Tate) writes: > > While I've never seen the particular behavior you describe here, I am > generally unimpressed by the behaviour of the FDHD drives. One day, I tried > to format a stack of HD disks in an SE that had these drives. Out of five > disks, I eventually got *one* of them to format, I think on the fourth try. > S'funny. I have good luck with them. Unless I use cheap disks- then things suddenly stop working... > There seems to be a historical difficulty with Macintosh disk drives -- they > generally have a hard time formatting disks. The student microcomputer lab > attendants here at Penn State have come up with a standard practice for > dealing with disks that fail to initialize (in old-style drives): format > them in an IBM PS/2 first, then try again. It works pretty well.... > In the place where I work, we have to format MS-DOS 720K 3.5" disks on a Mac SE under Apple File Exchange- the MS-DOS drives just can't seem to do a good format... > Am I deluded, or do the Macs have weaker magnetic fields when they write > to their disks than other computers? It would certainly seem that way.... > It might just be the disks... I usually take the disk out of the drive and turn the hub by hand. That can make them work (sometimes). Alignment probs? Chad Irby ac08@untvax vaxa.acs.unt.edu
ldg@yoda.byu.edu (04/08/90)
In <52048@coherent.coherent.com>, dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: >I've been using Macs since '85 or so, and have bought perhaps 200 >floppies for my own use. I've seen very few go bad. It is obvious that you have bought very few BASF diskettes. Out of about 100 of them I have bought, between 10% to 20% have failed. The high figure is if I count the replacement disks that failed. Or the replacements for replacements for replacements that also failed. On the other hand, out of perhaps 200 other diskettes I have purchased, only one (a Sony) has failed. None of the approx. 100 Kao diskettes has. These results are, of course, just my experiences, but involve perhaps a half dozen different floppy drives, so it isn't just a sick Mac that's been killing floppies. I would advise nobody to buy BASF 3.5" floppies. BTW, they still owe me replacements for disks I sent in as defective. Perhaps I should be grateful. Lyle D. Gunderson N6KSZ | "Any technology without | ldg@yoda.byu.edu 350 CB/BYU | some attendant risk of misuse | CIS: 73760,2354 Provo UT 84602 | is probably trivial" | GEnie: L.GUNDERSON | --Louise Kohl | AO: LGunderson
Justin_Randall_Padawer@cup.portal.com (04/09/90)
It's the little things like this message thread that annoy me.
hasses@prism.cs.orst.edu (Stephen Haase) (04/09/90)
I'm having some problems and would greatly appreciate some answers. My configuration is a IIci, 5 megs, 6.05(downloaded fine for me), 65 meg CMS hard drive, lot of inits and CDevs. 1: In Switch-a-Roo, I can't get the Roo File to save my new settings. I set Switch A to 2 gray and switch B to 256 color and click on save, the hard drive light blinks on, but when I invoke the key, it changes the color to gray(but the bit the remains the same). ie. if I'm in 256 color, it changes to 256 gray, if in 2 color, it changes to 2 gray. I even went to the CS lab to get a 'good' roo file. I made one there that worked fine, but when I dumped it in my system folder, I got the same results. Note: it did this with 6.04 also. 2: Solarian II boots fine, the menu comes up, but when you click to begin, the screen is truely screwed up to the point where you cant make out definate images(although it will still let you play)...needless to say, I haven't gotten past the first level on that one. 3: NOIcon also doesn't do what it is supposed to, instead of not having the init icons appearing, it just moves some of them over and it places some of them on top of one another(although not all of them) 4: Where can I get the THINK C 4.01 updater? I tried at rascal.ics.utexas.edu, but it wouldn't let me get the file... 5: ZTerm won't let me add/edit any #'s in the phone book. I click on setups...it asks for a new name...I type it...and nothing happens... 6: Superspool causes my system to hang. 7: This list seems like it goes forever eh? 8: Its just that I've been saving them up for about 5 months. 9: Well, thats about all I can remember for now. 10: Any news on a 9600+standard in the near future? anyways, if you have any answers, PLEASE SEND ME MAIL!!!!! thanx in advance -Steve
kassover@jupiter.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) (04/10/90)
In article <7550@goofy.Apple.COM> casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes: In article <Apr.1.20.23.56.1990.19753@topaz.rutgers.edu> wilmott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Wilmott) writes: On the Mac I've *never* found a file on a floppy to be corrupted; Me either... ...instead I've found *many* times (on seperate Macs) whole *disks* that have become unreadable. How many is *many*? I've been using various Macs ever since they were introduced, which is to say 6 years of heavy use, and I've seen this maybe a dozen times, or about twice a year. In many of those cases, I've been able to read the diskette by trying a second time -- in which case I always copy the data and then throw away the diskette. What kind of diskettes are you using? This may be a factor. Hmmm. Are you perhaps treating your mac disks subtly differently from your other disks? When I was first introduced to Macintosh, it was common for users to put their floppies on top of the external drive (it was a convenient shelf) Eventually, it was discovered that this was why disks went sour so frequently. The corresponding "convenient shelf" for PC users (at that time) was not so close to stray magnetic fields... You'd be surprised at where such stray fields appear. Think carefully before archiving your media.
hill@petsd.UUCP (John S. Hill) (04/10/90)
In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: >In article <Apr.1.20.23.56.1990.19753@topaz.rutgers.edu> wilmott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Wilmott) writes: > >> 1) Why does the Macs handling of floppies seem to be *so* much >> fussier than other computers? On the other micros I've used >> (IBM, Atari ST, Atari 8-bit), you *rarely* if ever attempt to >> use a floppy you made a year ago and find the disk "unreadable". >> You instead find a particular *file* unreadable every once in a blue >> moon. On the Mac I've *never* found a file on a floppy to be >> corrupted; instead I've found *many* times (on seperate Macs) whole >> *disks* that have become unreadable. This whole thing seems >> fishy to me. What does the stupid Mac do...scan every sector to see >> if it's readable, and if one isn't, it *assumes* the *whole* disk >> is bad?!?!?!?!? > >1) Improper formatting of floppies. Some people are in the habit of > buying single-sided floppies (knowing that the "cookies" are coated > on both sides), trying to format them double-sided, and (when the > format operation succeeds) assuming that the diskettes are safe to > use. > This is a dangerous practice... many single-sided floppies are ones > which passed the manufacturer's certification process on one side, > but failed on the other side. Such floppies may work OK for a > while... but if there are defects in the oxide layer on the second > side, data written to this side of the floppy may "fade" after a > while. While in theory I agree with this, in practice, I've never had any problems. I have over 200 single sided floppies at home, most of which I bought years ago for my original 128k doorstop. When I upgraded the 128k to a 512ke some years ago, I reformatted these floppies as 800k. None went bad. A large percentage of these floppies were then used in school computers, in both single and double sided drives, where they worked just fine. In fact they still work just fine in my SE. I've never had any "fading" problems. >4) Improper storage of the diskettes. If you store a diskette near any > device which generates a magnetic field, information on the disk can > be partially erased... leading to an unreadable disk at some later > time. Diskettes should not be placed on top of an external-floppy ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > drive, or leaned up against the side of the Mac (I _think_ that only > the left side of the classic Mac is a danger zone, but I could well > be wrong). I always thought that this was a real silly argument. If the disk isn't harmed by being *in* the drive, how on God's green earth can it be harmed by sitting on *top* of the drive? >5) Contamination of the diskette during storage... by dust, tobacco > smoke, etc. People sometimes fling floppies around as if they were > invulnerable, or stick them in a shirt-pocket... and end up with a > dirty or scratched "cookie". After using the Mac in a University envrionment for 5 years, I can state that short of shooting the blasted things, you *can't* hurt a floppy. I've seen people do real nasty things to them, including handling them with grape jelly smeared hands, and they seem to work just fine (although I wouldn't want *that* floppy in *my* drive). -- +=====================================+=======================================+ | Mustang GT, there is no substitute. | Go Eagles, Flyers, Phillies, Sixers, | | - "Risky Business", paraphrased. | and Wings! There's always next year! | +----------------------------------+--+---------------------------------------+ | UUCP: {att,princeton}!petsd!hill | ...if I go insane, please don't put your | | or hill@petsd.tinton.ccur.com | wires in my brain... -- If, Pink Floyd | +==================================+==========================================+
egapmh@uncecs.edu (Paul M. Hudy) (04/10/90)
In article <5941@jarthur.Claremont.EDU>, mwilkins@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Mark Wilkins) writes: > In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: > >2) Cheap floppies. Certain brands are reliable... certain others > > aren't. After reading through the Memcon floppy-disk report for > > 1988, I'd never trust important data to a Dysan or Wabash or Xidex or > ^^^^^ > > That's funny. Ten years ago, Dysan was extremely highly-priced and had a > reputation for excellent quality. Things change, I guess. > > -- Mark Wilkins We used to call Dysans "Doctor Disks" because only they could afford them. I think they used to be about $40-50 for a box 10 single sided Apple II+ disks. -Paul <egapmh@ecsvax>
hnewstrom@x102c.harris-atd.com (Harvey Newstrom) (04/11/90)
In article <1990Apr6.141204.22579@eng.umd.edu> russotto@eng.umd.edu (Matthew T. Russotto) writes: | |I'd have your watch fixed-- it's pretty well known (or at least I've seen |lots of people complain, and there was an article in the Washington Apple |Pi Journal mentioning it) that the Mac clock doesn't keep time well. | You're right. I just found out that there is software on my machine, put on by my room-mate. It somehow figures out how much the clock is off, and constantly adjusts it. __ Harvey Newstrom (hnewstrom@x102c.ess.harris.com) (uunet!x102c!hnewstrom) formerly (hnewstrom@x102a.harris-atd.com) (uunet!x102a!hnewstrom)
kassover@jupiter.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) (04/11/90)
In article <1783@petsd.UUCP> hill@petsd.UUCP (John S. Hill) writes: >In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: ... | |1) Improper formatting of floppies. Some people are in the habit of | | buying single-sided floppies (knowing that the "cookies" are coated | | on both sides), trying to format them double-sided, and (when the | | format operation succeeds) assuming that the diskettes are safe to | | use. | | This is a dangerous practice... many single-sided floppies are ones | | which passed the manufacturer's certification process on one side, | | but failed on the other side. Such floppies may work OK for a | | while... but if there are defects in the oxide layer on the second | | side, data written to this side of the floppy may "fade" after a | | while. | |While in theory I agree with this, in practice, I've never had any problems. Some people still insist on buying magtape certified no higher than 800 bpi. Some of them get burned. Some of them still have now idea *why* they're getting burned. | |4) Improper storage of the diskettes. If you store a diskette near any | | device which generates a magnetic field, information on the disk can | | be partially erased... leading to an unreadable disk at some later | | time. Diskettes should not be placed on top of an external-floppy | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | drive, or leaned up against the side of the Mac (I _think_ that only | | the left side of the classic Mac is a danger zone, but I could well | | be wrong). | |I always thought that this was a real silly argument. If the disk isn't |harmed by being *in* the drive, how on God's green earth can it be harmed |by sitting on *top* of the drive? So did I, for a very short time. Especially since putting a floppy you're about to re-insert shortly is analogous to putting a magtape on top of a tape drive. But, at least back then, the top of the floppy drive was not shielded against the magnetic fields put out by the drive motor. Once the users learned this and changed their habits, many unreadable disk problems went away. Except for those users who smoked or tolerated smoking near their media and drives. | | |5) Contamination of the diskette during storage... by dust, tobacco | | smoke, etc. People sometimes fling floppies around as if they were | | invulnerable, or stick them in a shirt-pocket... and end up with a | | dirty or scratched "cookie". | |After using the Mac in a University envrionment for 5 years, I can state |that short of shooting the blasted things, you *can't* hurt a floppy. ... Ah, but you can. see above. |I've seen people do real nasty things to them, including handling them with |grape jelly smeared hands, and they seem to work just fine (although I wouldn't |want *that* floppy in *my* drive). You said it. I'll second. As far as I am concerned, *that* floppy is damaged beyond repair.
sho@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu (Sho Kuwamoto) (04/11/90)
In article <52048@coherent.coherent.com> dplatt@coherent.com (Dave Platt) writes: >In article <Apr.1.20.23.56.1990.19753@topaz.rutgers.edu> wilmott@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ray Wilmott) writes: >> 1) Why does the Macs handling of floppies seem to be *so* much >> fussier than other computers? [disks go bad a lot] >1) Improper formatting of floppies. [sez culprit is using SS as DS > floppies] I completely disagree. I've had plenty of problems with bad disks, and I use DS disks. I imagine there are several factors. First, whenever I open my mac, I notice that there is dust *everywhere*. I had to get my drive replaced once, and it was filthy. There was dust all over the internals. I could hardly have expected it to work. Second, mac disks may be more prone to failure because they use a variable speed motor. The number of sectors is greater near the outer rim than near the inner rim. This might make the drive more prone to failure. It may also make it more sensitive to speed variations. between different drives, or between the same drive after a long period. -Sho -- sho@physics.purdue.edu <<-- just a hypothesis.
tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu (Anthony Rich) (04/12/90)
Here's another data point to add to this discussion of floppy disk problems. I've noticed on my Mac II that I sometimes get "bad sector" errors on the *first* diskette that I insert and use if I haven't used the floppy drive for a long time (often more than a week). This strongly suggests that dust builds up on the heads or other parts of the drive over time, and the first diskette I put in after that is acting as a cleaning diskette, whether it wants to or not! Of course, it might be that the *diskette* has gone bad over time, but I've noticed that the errors seem to correlate with the "first disk used after a long time" event. I don't normally have problems with other diskettes after I replace that first one. That might partly explain why some people have fewer problems than others; if they use their floppy drives more heavily, there may be less diskette damage due to dirt buildup (although oxide from the floppies can build up on the heads with heavy use, too). Anyway, it seems like a wise strategy would be to run a commercial head cleaning diskette through the drive after each long period of *disuse* (not just after heavy use). BTW, why hasn't anyone designed a self-cleaning floppy drive? Tony -- ----------------------------------------- | EMAIL: tonyrich@titanic.cs.wisc.edu | | Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. | -----------------------------------------