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Date: Wed 10 Dec 86 14:39:42 PST
Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V86 #44
From: Info-Atari16 Digest <Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.EDU>
To: Info-Atari16 Distribution List: ;
Reply-to: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu
Info-Atari16 Digest Wednesday, December 10, 1986 Volume 86 : Issue 44
This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield
Today's Topics:
Re: A couple of questions
Degas upgrade in UK
Re: Illegal and wrongful postings
Re: Atari and BREAKOUT.ACC
Re: Breakout.Acc
re: FTP-ing, again
Re: ramdisk problems
Dialogs, other resources
What is GDOS?
answers to some recent questions
advertised dev kit in computer shopper
GEM bugs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 01:19:56 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!pc@seismo.css.gov (R.P.A.Collinson)
Subject: Re: A couple of questions
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
KJBSF@slacvm.bitnet writes:
>I've been getting some message from Mark Williams C about an 'outdated
>ranlib' whenever I try to use the AES or VDI libraries when compiling
>a program. What does this mean? Do I need to send my disks back to MW to
>get something fixed?
>
I got this on libc.a when I copied it from the floppy onto a hard disc.
I did
<ensure the date is correct>
ar x libc.a ranlib.sym
ar r libc.a ranlib.sym
(I went to do an rm ranlib.sym and discovered hat the file had
already gone)
and after a lot of disc whirring the problem went away. Basically, I altered
the time on the symbol table file to be after that on the ar file.
Would have been nice to have had a ranlib out of MW C tho...
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:20:33 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!warwick!cvaxa!unx1!qsfa1@seismo.css.gov (Graham Thomas)
Subject: Degas upgrade in UK
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
Does anyone know if it's possible to get Degas Elite in the UK by sending
the original Degas disk plus the difference in price to the suppliers or
distributors? I know N.American owners can send the disk + $40 to
Batteries Included, but my local dealers claim they know of no such scheme
in Britain.
I'll be really annoyed if I can't upgrade cheaply over here. Degas Elite
costs approx. $120 in the UK, which I can't afford, and it would be good if
someone would keep faith with those of us who bought, rather than copied,
Tom Hudson's excellent program.
Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Bldg, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK
UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!cvaxa!unx1!qsfa1
JANET: qsfa1@uk.ac.sussex.vax2
phone: +44 273 686758 (Science Policy Research Unit)
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:38:31 GMT
From: mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@seismo.css.gov (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Illegal and wrongful postings
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In article <1850@alvin.mcnc.UUCP> ravi@alvin.UUCP (Ravi Subrahmanyan) writes:
>In article <1407@lsuc.UUCP> jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>>
>> .... The 'BREAKOUT' desk accessory was *not* public domain. It was
>>proprietary code from Atari. ..........
>
> In defense of Eric, I must say that I too had a copy of
Actually, I tried to word my posting to avoid casting any blame in
any direction. I certainly don't know that it was Eric's fault and I
have no particular reason to believe that he would have posted it if he
had known better.
>breakout.acc, which I fully believed to be a PD product, and which
>I've given away to some other people; now this whole thing has me
>worried because __ I got the acc from a local dealer, who has it in a disk
>of PD software that he lets people copy __. I obviously can't *prove*
>that's how I got it, but is it an authorised copy if the dealer gave
>it away? Did Atari mean to sell it, or distribute it through dealers?
I don't think Atari meant to allow it out. Neil's postings seem to
indicate that they hadn't come to any decision on the matter, but I'll
defer the question to him.
>Is there a legal problem in such a case, ie. does my receiving it free
>from the dealer mean I am not to give it away also (I can hardly
The absolute legal rights depend on the surrounding facts so I won't
bother to try to tell you the answer to your question. Frankly, fully
aside from the legal rights, in a situation like this I usually kill the
file eventually out of respect for the author's wishes. The only reason
I keep it around at all is a matter of curiosity (to see if it actually
worked). I've already killed my copy of BREAKOUT.
Please keep in mind that there is a difference between the BREAKOUT
code problems and the TI-59 code problems. If we can obliterate the TI
trademarks in the TI-59 emulator, I can't see anything wrong with that
one. As such I would like to encourage you to keep that program with the
objective of making the necessary changes and re-posting a version which
doesn't create unnecessary legal problems. TI may disagree with me on this
point, but at least we would have at least avoided the obvious and clear
legal problems.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 04:00:17 GMT
From: mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@seismo.css.gov (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Atari and BREAKOUT.ACC
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In article <8612051455.AA02099@ncsc.ARPA> moore@NCSC.ARPA (Moore) writes:
>
>This situation is getting out of hand: How can you tell if the fantastic new
(Huh? Out of hand. I don't think things are that bad.)
>piece of software you picked up off an RBBS is commercial or public domain?
Presume it's not public domain unless it says so. To a certain extent
copyright notice errors in the US can be corrected and in the *rest of the
world* (or at least a substantial enough part of it) copyright notices are
NOT necessary at all. Check the list of signatories on the Berne Convention.
>You can't, unless you get the source along with it (know what that will do to
>your long distance phone bill???). And don't give me that line about a copy-
>right notice showing on the screen: I downloaded a copy of BREAKOUT from some
It would be nice if programmers learned at least to embed copyright notices
and public domain declarations in the code.
>(I'll never tell) BBS, and there ain't no copyright notice on it!
>
>Regardless of the illegalities involved in posting something that's copyrighted
>even if you don't know that is the case, netters need to keep this in perspec-
>tive: do you really believe the guy would have posted the thing if he knew it
>was copyrighted? The *only* reason I haven't posted DB Master One, which I got
>from a "Public Domain" BBS, is because I can't get a straight (or at least,
>consistent) answer on if it is pd or not.
>
>I don't mean the following as a jab at Neil, or anyone else, because I don't
>know whose job it is to police the net (certainly not Neil's), if it is
>anyone's; it should be said, though, that a couple of people (myself included)
>posted *several* queries to the net concerning BREAKOUT, well before BREAKOUT
Whose job is it to police the Net? All of us. Otherwise we can expect
to find real "policing" of the Net. But hey, I don't read every message on
the Net and I don't even read all the postings in the 'comp.sys.atari.st'
postings. It's possible that Neil missed it too. I certainly never read
any of the queries about the status of Breakout. I found out about it when
I posted a query about its status on BIX.
>itself was posted; wasn't that the time to shout "illegal!", rather than after
>the thing had been posted?
>
>Unfortunately I can't offer any solutions for the paranoia that is so prevalent
>these days concerning software copying; but this is getting ridiculous.
Paranoia? Where?
>
>Jim
>Moore@NCSC.arpa
>(i've got heaps of pd s/w on my host, but it might not *really* be pd, so you
> can't have it, nyahh!!)
(Hmm. Don't sound like paranoia to me. Sounds more like ... Oh forget
it. :-)
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 02:32:51 GMT
From: rutgers!husc6!husc4!grunau_b@lll-crg.arpa (justin grunau)
Subject: Re: Breakout.Acc
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In response to Flash@Umass.BITNET, I have to say that I agree with the balance
of what he said. In particular, I have to go with his sentiments regarding
the rather noticeable disparity between Neil Harris's immediate reaction to
the BREAKOUT.ACC posting and his total lack of interest in the user questions
that have appeared lately (of course, I am responsible for a disproportionate
quantity of these questions, so I guess you could say I am biased). In
fairness, of course, we have no idea how often Mr. Harris logs onto a
newsnet host, and we can't expect him to read every single back article if
he has been offline for a long time. Also, I suspect that the period just
before Christmas is probably rather busy for most people at Atari. Still, it
would have been nice to have seen some sort of acknowledgement.
However, I have to say that a few of the complaints in the article I am
responding to were a little extreme. Although I agree that it is a little
much to say that GDOS will be free one minute and then give it a price, etc.,
I don't think it is much of a crime to be a little late in releasing something.
After all, it can happen to anybody, and it certainly isn't intentional. I,
for one, am very glad that Atari is taking its time to release the IBM
emulation box. Considering that many people claim to have seen it running
the Microsoft Flight Simulator sometime over the summer, to have it released
six months later can only mean that they are increasing its compatability
level to something close to 100% (at least, that is what I am hoping).
Just to be a spreader of unsubstantiated rumours, a local BBS (Boston Area)
has it that a rather large (national) retailer was recently at Atari and has
heard that the IBM emulation box will not be released until about March, but
that it will (1) include a 5.25" drive, (2) be fully compatible, and (3) cost
about $600. This seems somewhat consistent, since the earlier estimates were
without a drive and were set at about $300. It's steap, but frankly it seems
reasonable to me.
JJMG
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 86 01:06:45 EST
From: grunau%husc4@harvard.HARVARD.EDU
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
Subject: re: FTP-ing, again
Hi -- I tried FTP-ing the file LARN.ARC in ASCII format, and got what looked
to be the file in one piece ... I edited it, removed the mail headers and
junk, and shifted the pieces of the uuencoded thing into one large block.
When I uudecoded, it gave me no complaints, and when I downloaded it, (binary
mode, of course), ARC with the "l" parameter listed correctly the files that
were archived in there. However, when I de-arc-ed it, all the files except
for LARN.HLP failed the CRC check! Of course they were far too munged to
run (they give me TOS error #35, not surprisingly). I have repeated the
process three times, in case I had made some sort of error or that there
was some sort of line problems (though of course both FTP and Kermit have
error detection in abundance). Do you have any idea what the problem could
be? Have any of you successfully downloaded the contents of that text file?
BTW, I assumed that since the different pieces of the uuencoded block were
stored in the order (2), (1), and (3), that I should re-arrange them into the
correct order of (1), (2), and (3), and that they were out of order due to
an accident of the way news articles sometimes arrive out of order.
Any help on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
JJMG
(accessible via husc6!husc4!grunau or grunau_b; husc6 is connected, I
believe, to seismo. I have received mail from one of you out there
correctly at least once, so there should be no trouble.)
[The LARN.ARC on Score was never quite correct. The recently posted
LARN.ARC should not have these problems, nor shold the current LARN.ARC
on Score. For kicks, there is currently also a LARN.UUE (mail headers
stripped, 7 bit), and a LARN.ARC8 (uudecoded, true 8 bit ARC file).
--BillW ]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 86 06:51 N
From: <DRIEHUIS%HLERUL55.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ramdisk problems
To: info-atari16@su-score.arpa
X-Original-To: info-atari16@su-score.arpa, DRIEHUIS
I haven't used the intram-disk myself for two reasons. The first is that
I didn't quite like it, it looked more like an arcade game than it looked
like a RAM disk.
The second was the most important, though. It is documented (but I can't
remember where - sorry) that a desk accessory may under no circumstance
allocate memory dynamically. I can only guess at it, but I fear the Intram
doesn't do anything to correct potential problems with other programs,
that allocate memory and then in some way temporarily giving control to an
accessory.
On a related note, the reset survivable RAM disk works simply by setting
a memory management register to fool the ST into thinking it only has 512K
on board. Thus it cannot conflict with any other program that wishes to use
the same memory, because the memory simply doesn't exist !
And while I'm at it, at first the reset survivable RAM disk failed to work
for me I had put it on my normal startup disk, replacing the RAM disk
I used until then. The problem was a program I wrote to remove remnants of
RAMdisks from a former session after a reboot. This was necessary with
normal RAMdisks, to avoid them being assigned successive higher drive
letters each time you do a warm boot. It simply set ndrives to 1 and
drvbits to 00000011. After removing the remover, the reset survivable RAM
disk has saved me lots of frustration in the edit-compile-link-test-reboot
sequence !
- Bert Driehuis
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 11:26:00 GMT
From: zen!zooey.Berkeley.EDU!c160-bv@cad.Berkeley.EDU (Warner Young)
Subject: Dialogs, other resources
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
How does one go about generating a menu bar / dialog using the .RSH
file from the RCS? That is, I want to write a program that contains all its
own resource information, without referencing a .RSC file, and I'm sure that
the .RSH file contains all the necessary information, except that I don't
know how to use it. Can someone help?
Also, on the RCS, what is the exact difference between a "panel" and
a "dialog"? The only difference I can see is that the objects in a "panel"
are all pixel-aligned, as opposed to character-aligned. Is that all?
Also, what version of RCS do we all have? I called Atari for an
update, and received v2.1 in the mail. Is that the newest one? And BTW,
for those of you who don't have v2.1 yet, it fixes the "monochrome" bug of
the previous release, so that you can view resources correctly even on a
color screen. However, v2.1 cannot load its own .RSC file; it simply locks
up when you try to do it.
Another question: why do you need to use Vsync() before switching
screen display locations? I've heard that occasionally there are jitters
or problems with the display, but I wrote a program to switch between two
screens a lot of times, and there's never any problem.
Neil, if you're reading, when are developers supposed to get GDOS?
A friend and I have been waiting quite a while for it.
Finally, using a desk accessory that checks the amount of free RAM
(essentially the one Tom Hudson released), I noticed that when I run a SMALL
program (15K or less, I think), I have more free memory while running it than
I do in the Desktop. There's about 33K more, in fact. Where is this stuff
when the Desktop is up? What's using it? And will GDOS take up more RAM?
How much more?
Whew! Sorry for all these questions, but I can't access the net
often, so I've gotta ask them now. In fact, after December 9th, if you
e-mail me directly, please write to radics@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP
Thanks, everyone, and have a merry Christmas, and a happy New Year!
Warner Young
"If I had something funny to say, I would.
Unfortunately, I am not affiliated with any rich, money-making people or
companies."
------------------------------
Date: 7 DEC 86 16:39-N
From: U00170%HASARA5.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
To: INFO-ATARI16@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Subject: What is GDOS?
I would also like to know what the GDOS is? Could someone please
write an article about it. What does it do, wich extra functions an
you use, and can you combine it with TOS in ROM etc.
Tanks in advance,
Berend F. de Vries.
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 06:28:53 GMT
From: tektronix!tekig!tekig4!georgew@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George Walker)
Subject: answers to some recent questions
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
At last! Someone asked some questions I can answer.
1) Someone asked how to do I/O redirection with speak.tos (or any other
program) when you don't have a shell. GEM has a built-in shell of
sorts. If you rename a *.TOS file to *.TTP, it will prompt you for
command line arguments, including redirection of stdin and stdout. So
rename speak.tos to speak.ttp and double-click on it. When the box
comes up to prompt you, just type <filename. Filename can be a full or
partial path. By the way, this worked for stspeech.tos, too, but the
problem was that stspeech required ^C from the keyboard to exit, whereas
speak exits on end of file. Also, speak suppresses the display of the
phonetics and reads double-spaced files correctly.
2) Someone asked about TOS ERROR 35. Technically, this means too many files
are open, but in practice, it usually means you got a bad copy of the
program you are trying to run.
3) Someone asked about Microsoft Write (aka Macintosh Word). This is
supposed to be out this month, I think. There is a nice two-page ad in
the latest issue of Newsweek that shows the ST with various applications,
including Microsoft Write. (Neil, why didn't they use a picture of
Flight Simulator II as well?) At the same time Microsoft Word comes out,
Atari will cease to bundle 1STWORD with the ST. The new 1STWORD allows
merging text and graphics, and will be sold separately. I hope Atari
knows what it's doing; one reason I bought my ST was that it came
bundled with a decent word processor (though if 1STWORD is cheap, I guess
it doesn't make much difference - Commodore still has no WP for the Amiga).
Microsoft Write will list for $129.95.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:34:06 GMT
From: s.cc.purdue.edu!afo@h.cc.purdue.edu (Alan Davis)
Subject: advertised dev kit in computer shopper
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In some previous article Rich Andrews writes:
> I have just received my December issue of the 'Computer
>Shopper' and have found some interesting ads in the classified section.
>I quote from page 378.
>
> "Atari 520ST/1040ST Development kit. Includes
> "C" compiler, assembler, linker, editor, util-
> ities, and ICON/RCS programs. $49.95 Patrick
> Eberhart, PO Box 280151, Tampa, FL 33682."
>
I just called this guy (at 813-932-9472) and I got some comments:
> I think that these ads raise some valid questions.
Yes it does.
>
> 1) Is Atari selling consumer versions of the development kit?
NO THEY ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!! When I asked if the kit was still for sale he said
yes and no. (huh??????????) He told me that the documentation included was
the ABACUS book and that I would have to copy some of the programs from the
book onto the disk. He said that it did include a C compiler but he didn't
want to say much.
> 2) Are these people selling pirated versions of the development kit?
I thoroughly believe so. Shouldn't Atari have all of the registered
developers in their files?? If so, this guy could be traced. And if he is
not registered, then they can throw the book at him (no pun intended).
>
> 3) Is this a stripped down version of the $300 dev. kit?
apparently -- stripped down and ripped off!
> 4) What is the real story here? Any comments?
The real story is that this guy is trying to make a fast buck. He should be
put out of business. Have him drawn and quartered... :-) Neil, care to check
on this?
Alan Davis
Purdue University Computing Center
USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!s.cc!afo
BITNET: ADAVIS@PURCCVM
Disclaimer: My boss has opinions too but I can't express them in public.
Therefore, I thought up my opinions all by myself.
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 17:35:02 GMT
From: ames!rutgers!husc6!husc4!grunau_b@cad.Berkeley.EDU (justin grunau)
Subject: GEM bugs
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
I would like to report a few bugs in GEM that I have never seen mentioned on
the net, and see whether anybody else has come across similar behaviour, and
whether anybody can make anything of this ...
Basically, I suspect the bugs have something to do with memory getting used
up and not released when various programs terminate. The problem is not,
however, visible to any of the programs I currently have to check memory size.
That is, even when these bugs are occuring, everything still tells me I have as
much memory as I had when I started (about 800K -- I am using a 1040).
The most common bug by far occurs when I come out of some program in my utils
or games directory (usually either uniterm v1.6c or megaroids), and then click
on the "close" gadget to move one directory up. Either nothing happens, or
the close button inverts (turns black) AS THOUGH IT WERE AN ICON I JUST
SELECTED. Clicking on the gadget again just re-inverts (turns white) the close
gadget, just like an icon. Eventually, if I click on it enough times, the
window closes, and everything is back to normal. While this weirdness is
occuring, I can usually click on other icons/names in the window, and even
launch programs, etc. The bug is impossible to reproduce -- it just comes and
goes.
An even WEIRDER bug is when GEM apparently gets totally confused and not only
does the close gadget act like an icon, but in fact neither it nor any icon
will register having been selected until AFTER the mouse has moved. That is,
you move on top of a file, click on it; nothing happens. Move the mouse a
tiny bit; all of a sudden, the file you clicked on turns black. Click on it
again, and once again it takes a movement of the mouse to turn it white again.
The WEIRDEST bug is when everything in a GEM directory window starts acting
like one of the pop-down menu items: that is, everything you move over turns
black while you are on top of it, and white once you are off it: it does not
take a click to make something look selected. It takes only a few minutes of
this behaviour to cause the system to freeze up completely.
One last bug that I have started seeing with greater frequency lately. I
will be happily doing stuff, and then suddenly anything I try to do makes the
system tell me there is no memory to do it. Checking memory by the RAMCHK
deskacc tells me I have 800K. Even some GEM operations give me this problem.
For instance, if I try to look at the "Show Info" thing on one of my hard
disk icons, it will work; but if I try to look at the info of my floppy disk
icon, it says not enough memory for this application.
Has anybody else ever seen these bugs? I used to have the TI desk accessory
with the .RSC file, and since someone recently posted news that accessories
with .RSC files cause problems, I have gotten rid of it in the hope that
perhaps it was the cause; but it hasn't been long enough to tell.
JJMG
...seismo!husc6!husc4!grunau (or grunau_b)
or use ...decvax!ihnp4!husc6...
------------------------------
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
**************************
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FAILED: umes1435%umes.bitnet at 192.12.12.13; Host appears to be permanently down or not accepting mail.
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Date: Wed 10 Dec 86 14:39:42 PST
Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V86 #44
From: Info-Atari16 Digest <Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.EDU>
To: Info-Atari16 Distribution List: ;
Reply-to: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu
Info-Atari16 Digest Wednesday, December 10, 1986 Volume 86 : Issue 44
This weeks Editor: Bill Westfield
Today's Topics:
Re: A couple of questions
Degas upgrade in UK
Re: Illegal and wrongful postings
Re: Atari and BREAKOUT.ACC
Re: Breakout.Acc
re: FTP-ing, again
Re: ramdisk problems
Dialogs, other resources
What is GDOS?
answers to some recent questions
advertised dev kit in computer shopper
GEM bugs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 01:19:56 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!pc@seismo.css.gov (R.P.A.Collinson)
Subject: Re: A couple of questions
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
KJBSF@slacvm.bitnet writes:
>I've been getting some message from Mark Williams C about an 'outdated
>ranlib' whenever I try to use the AES or VDI libraries when compiling
>a program. What does this mean? Do I need to send my disks back to MW to
>get something fixed?
>
I got this on libc.a when I copied it from the floppy onto a hard disc.
I did
<ensure the date is correct>
ar x libc.a ranlib.sym
ar r libc.a ranlib.sym
(I went to do an rm ranlib.sym and discovered hat the file had
already gone)
and after a lot of disc whirring the problem went away. Basically, I altered
the time on the symbol table file to be after that on the ar file.
Would have been nice to have had a ranlib out of MW C tho...
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:20:33 GMT
From: mcvax!ukc!warwick!cvaxa!unx1!qsfa1@seismo.css.gov (Graham Thomas)
Subject: Degas upgrade in UK
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
Does anyone know if it's possible to get Degas Elite in the UK by sending
the original Degas disk plus the difference in price to the suppliers or
distributors? I know N.American owners can send the disk + $40 to
Batteries Included, but my local dealers claim they know of no such scheme
in Britain.
I'll be really annoyed if I can't upgrade cheaply over here. Degas Elite
costs approx. $120 in the UK, which I can't afford, and it would be good if
someone would keep faith with those of us who bought, rather than copied,
Tom Hudson's excellent program.
Graham Thomas, SPRU, Mantell Bldg, U of Sussex, Brighton, BN1 9RF, UK
UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!warwick!cvaxa!unx1!qsfa1
JANET: qsfa1@uk.ac.sussex.vax2
phone: +44 273 686758 (Science Policy Research Unit)
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:38:31 GMT
From: mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@seismo.css.gov (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Illegal and wrongful postings
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In article <1850@alvin.mcnc.UUCP> ravi@alvin.UUCP (Ravi Subrahmanyan) writes:
>In article <1407@lsuc.UUCP> jimomura@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Omura) writes:
>>
>> .... The 'BREAKOUT' desk accessory was *not* public domain. It was
>>proprietary code from Atari. ..........
>
> In defense of Eric, I must say that I too had a copy of
Actually, I tried to word my posting to avoid casting any blame in
any direction. I certainly don't know that it was Eric's fault and I
have no particular reason to believe that he would have posted it if he
had known better.
>breakout.acc, which I fully believed to be a PD product, and which
>I've given away to some other people; now this whole thing has me
>worried because __ I got the acc from a local dealer, who has it in a disk
>of PD software that he lets people copy __. I obviously can't *prove*
>that's how I got it, but is it an authorised copy if the dealer gave
>it away? Did Atari mean to sell it, or distribute it through dealers?
I don't think Atari meant to allow it out. Neil's postings seem to
indicate that they hadn't come to any decision on the matter, but I'll
defer the question to him.
>Is there a legal problem in such a case, ie. does my receiving it free
>from the dealer mean I am not to give it away also (I can hardly
The absolute legal rights depend on the surrounding facts so I won't
bother to try to tell you the answer to your question. Frankly, fully
aside from the legal rights, in a situation like this I usually kill the
file eventually out of respect for the author's wishes. The only reason
I keep it around at all is a matter of curiosity (to see if it actually
worked). I've already killed my copy of BREAKOUT.
Please keep in mind that there is a difference between the BREAKOUT
code problems and the TI-59 code problems. If we can obliterate the TI
trademarks in the TI-59 emulator, I can't see anything wrong with that
one. As such I would like to encourage you to keep that program with the
objective of making the necessary changes and re-posting a version which
doesn't create unnecessary legal problems. TI may disagree with me on this
point, but at least we would have at least avoided the obvious and clear
legal problems.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 04:00:17 GMT
From: mnetor!lsuc!jimomura@seismo.css.gov (Jim Omura)
Subject: Re: Atari and BREAKOUT.ACC
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In article <8612051455.AA02099@ncsc.ARPA> moore@NCSC.ARPA (Moore) writes:
>
>This situation is getting out of hand: How can you tell if the fantastic new
(Huh? Out of hand. I don't think things are that bad.)
>piece of software you picked up off an RBBS is commercial or public domain?
Presume it's not public domain unless it says so. To a certain extent
copyright notice errors in the US can be corrected and in the *rest of the
world* (or at least a substantial enough part of it) copyright notices are
NOT necessary at all. Check the list of signatories on the Berne Convention.
>You can't, unless you get the source along with it (know what that will do to
>your long distance phone bill???). And don't give me that line about a copy-
>right notice showing on the screen: I downloaded a copy of BREAKOUT from some
It would be nice if programmers learned at least to embed copyright notices
and public domain declarations in the code.
>(I'll never tell) BBS, and there ain't no copyright notice on it!
>
>Regardless of the illegalities involved in posting something that's copyrighted
>even if you don't know that is the case, netters need to keep this in perspec-
>tive: do you really believe the guy would have posted the thing if he knew it
>was copyrighted? The *only* reason I haven't posted DB Master One, which I got
>from a "Public Domain" BBS, is because I can't get a straight (or at least,
>consistent) answer on if it is pd or not.
>
>I don't mean the following as a jab at Neil, or anyone else, because I don't
>know whose job it is to police the net (certainly not Neil's), if it is
>anyone's; it should be said, though, that a couple of people (myself included)
>posted *several* queries to the net concerning BREAKOUT, well before BREAKOUT
Whose job is it to police the Net? All of us. Otherwise we can expect
to find real "policing" of the Net. But hey, I don't read every message on
the Net and I don't even read all the postings in the 'comp.sys.atari.st'
postings. It's possible that Neil missed it too. I certainly never read
any of the queries about the status of Breakout. I found out about it when
I posted a query about its status on BIX.
>itself was posted; wasn't that the time to shout "illegal!", rather than after
>the thing had been posted?
>
>Unfortunately I can't offer any solutions for the paranoia that is so prevalent
>these days concerning software copying; but this is getting ridiculous.
Paranoia? Where?
>
>Jim
>Moore@NCSC.arpa
>(i've got heaps of pd s/w on my host, but it might not *really* be pd, so you
> can't have it, nyahh!!)
(Hmm. Don't sound like paranoia to me. Sounds more like ... Oh forget
it. :-)
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 02:32:51 GMT
From: rutgers!husc6!husc4!grunau_b@lll-crg.arpa (justin grunau)
Subject: Re: Breakout.Acc
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In response to Flash@Umass.BITNET, I have to say that I agree with the balance
of what he said. In particular, I have to go with his sentiments regarding
the rather noticeable disparity between Neil Harris's immediate reaction to
the BREAKOUT.ACC posting and his total lack of interest in the user questions
that have appeared lately (of course, I am responsible for a disproportionate
quantity of these questions, so I guess you could say I am biased). In
fairness, of course, we have no idea how often Mr. Harris logs onto a
newsnet host, and we can't expect him to read every single back article if
he has been offline for a long time. Also, I suspect that the period just
before Christmas is probably rather busy for most people at Atari. Still, it
would have been nice to have seen some sort of acknowledgement.
However, I have to say that a few of the complaints in the article I am
responding to were a little extreme. Although I agree that it is a little
much to say that GDOS will be free one minute and then give it a price, etc.,
I don't think it is much of a crime to be a little late in releasing something.
After all, it can happen to anybody, and it certainly isn't intentional. I,
for one, am very glad that Atari is taking its time to release the IBM
emulation box. Considering that many people claim to have seen it running
the Microsoft Flight Simulator sometime over the summer, to have it released
six months later can only mean that they are increasing its compatability
level to something close to 100% (at least, that is what I am hoping).
Just to be a spreader of unsubstantiated rumours, a local BBS (Boston Area)
has it that a rather large (national) retailer was recently at Atari and has
heard that the IBM emulation box will not be released until about March, but
that it will (1) include a 5.25" drive, (2) be fully compatible, and (3) cost
about $600. This seems somewhat consistent, since the earlier estimates were
without a drive and were set at about $300. It's steap, but frankly it seems
reasonable to me.
JJMG
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 86 01:06:45 EST
From: grunau%husc4@harvard.HARVARD.EDU
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
Subject: re: FTP-ing, again
Hi -- I tried FTP-ing the file LARN.ARC in ASCII format, and got what looked
to be the file in one piece ... I edited it, removed the mail headers and
junk, and shifted the pieces of the uuencoded thing into one large block.
When I uudecoded, it gave me no complaints, and when I downloaded it, (binary
mode, of course), ARC with the "l" parameter listed correctly the files that
were archived in there. However, when I de-arc-ed it, all the files except
for LARN.HLP failed the CRC check! Of course they were far too munged to
run (they give me TOS error #35, not surprisingly). I have repeated the
process three times, in case I had made some sort of error or that there
was some sort of line problems (though of course both FTP and Kermit have
error detection in abundance). Do you have any idea what the problem could
be? Have any of you successfully downloaded the contents of that text file?
BTW, I assumed that since the different pieces of the uuencoded block were
stored in the order (2), (1), and (3), that I should re-arrange them into the
correct order of (1), (2), and (3), and that they were out of order due to
an accident of the way news articles sometimes arrive out of order.
Any help on this matter will be greatly appreciated.
thanks,
JJMG
(accessible via husc6!husc4!grunau or grunau_b; husc6 is connected, I
believe, to seismo. I have received mail from one of you out there
correctly at least once, so there should be no trouble.)
[The LARN.ARC on Score was never quite correct. The recently posted
LARN.ARC should not have these problems, nor shold the current LARN.ARC
on Score. For kicks, there is currently also a LARN.UUE (mail headers
stripped, 7 bit), and a LARN.ARC8 (uudecoded, true 8 bit ARC file).
--BillW ]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 86 06:51 N
From: <DRIEHUIS%HLERUL55.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ramdisk problems
To: info-atari16@su-score.arpa
X-Original-To: info-atari16@su-score.arpa, DRIEHUIS
I haven't used the intram-disk myself for two reasons. The first is that
I didn't quite like it, it looked more like an arcade game than it looked
like a RAM disk.
The second was the most important, though. It is documented (but I can't
remember where - sorry) that a desk accessory may under no circumstance
allocate memory dynamically. I can only guess at it, but I fear the Intram
doesn't do anything to correct potential problems with other programs,
that allocate memory and then in some way temporarily giving control to an
accessory.
On a related note, the reset survivable RAM disk works simply by setting
a memory management register to fool the ST into thinking it only has 512K
on board. Thus it cannot conflict with any other program that wishes to use
the same memory, because the memory simply doesn't exist !
And while I'm at it, at first the reset survivable RAM disk failed to work
for me I had put it on my normal startup disk, replacing the RAM disk
I used until then. The problem was a program I wrote to remove remnants of
RAMdisks from a former session after a reboot. This was necessary with
normal RAMdisks, to avoid them being assigned successive higher drive
letters each time you do a warm boot. It simply set ndrives to 1 and
drvbits to 00000011. After removing the remover, the reset survivable RAM
disk has saved me lots of frustration in the edit-compile-link-test-reboot
sequence !
- Bert Driehuis
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 11:26:00 GMT
From: zen!zooey.Berkeley.EDU!c160-bv@cad.Berkeley.EDU (Warner Young)
Subject: Dialogs, other resources
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
How does one go about generating a menu bar / dialog using the .RSH
file from the RCS? That is, I want to write a program that contains all its
own resource information, without referencing a .RSC file, and I'm sure that
the .RSH file contains all the necessary information, except that I don't
know how to use it. Can someone help?
Also, on the RCS, what is the exact difference between a "panel" and
a "dialog"? The only difference I can see is that the objects in a "panel"
are all pixel-aligned, as opposed to character-aligned. Is that all?
Also, what version of RCS do we all have? I called Atari for an
update, and received v2.1 in the mail. Is that the newest one? And BTW,
for those of you who don't have v2.1 yet, it fixes the "monochrome" bug of
the previous release, so that you can view resources correctly even on a
color screen. However, v2.1 cannot load its own .RSC file; it simply locks
up when you try to do it.
Another question: why do you need to use Vsync() before switching
screen display locations? I've heard that occasionally there are jitters
or problems with the display, but I wrote a program to switch between two
screens a lot of times, and there's never any problem.
Neil, if you're reading, when are developers supposed to get GDOS?
A friend and I have been waiting quite a while for it.
Finally, using a desk accessory that checks the amount of free RAM
(essentially the one Tom Hudson released), I noticed that when I run a SMALL
program (15K or less, I think), I have more free memory while running it than
I do in the Desktop. There's about 33K more, in fact. Where is this stuff
when the Desktop is up? What's using it? And will GDOS take up more RAM?
How much more?
Whew! Sorry for all these questions, but I can't access the net
often, so I've gotta ask them now. In fact, after December 9th, if you
e-mail me directly, please write to radics@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP
Thanks, everyone, and have a merry Christmas, and a happy New Year!
Warner Young
"If I had something funny to say, I would.
Unfortunately, I am not affiliated with any rich, money-making people or
companies."
------------------------------
Date: 7 DEC 86 16:39-N
From: U00170%HASARA5.BITNET@WISCVM.WISC.EDU
To: INFO-ATARI16@SU-SCORE.ARPA
Subject: What is GDOS?
I would also like to know what the GDOS is? Could someone please
write an article about it. What does it do, wich extra functions an
you use, and can you combine it with TOS in ROM etc.
Tanks in advance,
Berend F. de Vries.
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 06:28:53 GMT
From: tektronix!tekig!tekig4!georgew@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (George Walker)
Subject: answers to some recent questions
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
At last! Someone asked some questions I can answer.
1) Someone asked how to do I/O redirection with speak.tos (or any other
program) when you don't have a shell. GEM has a built-in shell of
sorts. If you rename a *.TOS file to *.TTP, it will prompt you for
command line arguments, including redirection of stdin and stdout. So
rename speak.tos to speak.ttp and double-click on it. When the box
comes up to prompt you, just type <filename. Filename can be a full or
partial path. By the way, this worked for stspeech.tos, too, but the
problem was that stspeech required ^C from the keyboard to exit, whereas
speak exits on end of file. Also, speak suppresses the display of the
phonetics and reads double-spaced files correctly.
2) Someone asked about TOS ERROR 35. Technically, this means too many files
are open, but in practice, it usually means you got a bad copy of the
program you are trying to run.
3) Someone asked about Microsoft Write (aka Macintosh Word). This is
supposed to be out this month, I think. There is a nice two-page ad in
the latest issue of Newsweek that shows the ST with various applications,
including Microsoft Write. (Neil, why didn't they use a picture of
Flight Simulator II as well?) At the same time Microsoft Word comes out,
Atari will cease to bundle 1STWORD with the ST. The new 1STWORD allows
merging text and graphics, and will be sold separately. I hope Atari
knows what it's doing; one reason I bought my ST was that it came
bundled with a decent word processor (though if 1STWORD is cheap, I guess
it doesn't make much difference - Commodore still has no WP for the Amiga).
Microsoft Write will list for $129.95.
------------------------------
Date: 6 Dec 86 03:34:06 GMT
From: s.cc.purdue.edu!afo@h.cc.purdue.edu (Alan Davis)
Subject: advertised dev kit in computer shopper
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
In some previous article Rich Andrews writes:
> I have just received my December issue of the 'Computer
>Shopper' and have found some interesting ads in the classified section.
>I quote from page 378.
>
> "Atari 520ST/1040ST Development kit. Includes
> "C" compiler, assembler, linker, editor, util-
> ities, and ICON/RCS programs. $49.95 Patrick
> Eberhart, PO Box 280151, Tampa, FL 33682."
>
I just called this guy (at 813-932-9472) and I got some comments:
> I think that these ads raise some valid questions.
Yes it does.
>
> 1) Is Atari selling consumer versions of the development kit?
NO THEY ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!! When I asked if the kit was still for sale he said
yes and no. (huh??????????) He told me that the documentation included was
the ABACUS book and that I would have to copy some of the programs from the
book onto the disk. He said that it did include a C compiler but he didn't
want to say much.
> 2) Are these people selling pirated versions of the development kit?
I thoroughly believe so. Shouldn't Atari have all of the registered
developers in their files?? If so, this guy could be traced. And if he is
not registered, then they can throw the book at him (no pun intended).
>
> 3) Is this a stripped down version of the $300 dev. kit?
apparently -- stripped down and ripped off!
> 4) What is the real story here? Any comments?
The real story is that this guy is trying to make a fast buck. He should be
put out of business. Have him drawn and quartered... :-) Neil, care to check
on this?
Alan Davis
Purdue University Computing Center
USENET: {seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!pur-ee!s.cc!afo
BITNET: ADAVIS@PURCCVM
Disclaimer: My boss has opinions too but I can't express them in public.
Therefore, I thought up my opinions all by myself.
------------------------------
Date: 7 Dec 86 17:35:02 GMT
From: ames!rutgers!husc6!husc4!grunau_b@cad.Berkeley.EDU (justin grunau)
Subject: GEM bugs
To: info-atari16@score.stanford.edu
I would like to report a few bugs in GEM that I have never seen mentioned on
the net, and see whether anybody else has come across similar behaviour, and
whether anybody can make anything of this ...
Basically, I suspect the bugs have something to do with memory getting used
up and not released when various programs terminate. The problem is not,
however, visible to any of the programs I currently have to check memory size.
That is, even when these bugs are occuring, everything still tells me I have as
much memory as I had when I started (about 800K -- I am using a 1040).
The most common bug by far occurs when I come out of some program in my utils
or games directory (usually either uniterm v1.6c or megaroids), and then click
on the "close" gadget to move one directory up. Either nothing happens, or
the close button inverts (turns black) AS THOUGH IT WERE AN ICON I JUST
SELECTED. Clicking on the gadget again just re-inverts (turns white) the close
gadget, just like an icon. Eventually, if I click on it enough times, the
window closes, and everything is back to normal. While this weirdness is
occuring, I can usually click on other icons/names in the window, and even
launch programs, etc. The bug is impossible to reproduce -- it just comes and
goes.
An even WEIRDER bug is when GEM apparently gets totally confused and not only
does the close gadget act like an icon, but in fact neither it nor any icon
will register having been selected until AFTER the mouse has moved. That is,
you move on top of a file, click on it; nothing happens. Move the mouse a
tiny bit; all of a sudden, the file you clicked on turns black. Click on it
again, and once again it takes a movement of the mouse to turn it white again.
The WEIRDEST bug is when everything in a GEM directory window starts acting
like one of the pop-down menu items: that is, everything you move over turns
black while you are on top of it, and white once you are off it: it does not
take a click to make something look selected. It takes only a few minutes of
this behaviour to cause the system to freeze up completely.
One last bug that I have started seeing with greater frequency lately. I
will be happily doing stuff, and then suddenly anything I try to do makes the
system tell me there is no memory to do it. Checking memory by the RAMCHK
deskacc tells me I have 800K. Even some GEM operations give me this problem.
For instance, if I try to look at the "Show Info" thing on one of my hard
disk icons, it will work; but if I try to look at the info of my floppy disk
icon, it says not enough memory for this application.
Has anybody else ever seen these bugs? I used to have the TI desk accessory
with the .RSC file, and since someone recently posted news that accessories
with .RSC files cause problems, I have gotten rid of it in the hope that
perhaps it was the cause; but it hasn't been long enough to tell.
JJMG
...seismo!husc6!husc4!grunau (or grunau_b)
or use ...decvax!ihnp4!husc6...
------------------------------
End of Info-Atari16 Digest
**************************
-------simon@einode.UUCP (Simon Kenyon) (12/17/86)
COMSAT@MC.LCS.MIT.EDU (Communications Satellite): > > FAILED: umes1435%umes.bitnet at 192.12.12.13; Host appears to be permanently down or not accepting mail. > Subject: Info-Atari16 Digest V86 #44 > From: Info-Atari16 Digest <Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.EDU> > To: Info-Atari16 Distribution List: ; > Reply-to: Info-Atari16@Score.Stanford.edu could the moderator of info-atari16 please delete umes1435@umes.bitnet from the mailing list i have now received several megabyes of duplicate failed mail to this address. i'm a bit fed up to say the least we will cut comp.sys.atari.st if this does not stop happening -- Simon Kenyon EUnet: simon@einode.UUCP Smail: The National Software Centre, Dublin, IRELAND Phone: +353-1-716255