ravi@mcnc.UUCP (Ravi Subrahmanyan) (12/25/86)
[]
I have some questions about the use of a hard disk with the
ST, I'd appreciate getting comments on these points:
1) What is the '40 folder limit' that's been bandied about
on the net? Can one not have more than 40 folders on the
disk (this does not make sense), or is one limited to
visiting 40 folders in a session? Do multiple openings
of a folder count towards the total more than once?
2) Is there a limit on the number of files one can have in
a folder, or on a logical disk? Please comment on any
and all limits..
3) Should the head parking program (I presume that's what
SHIP.PRG does) be run each time the drive is powered down),
or only if it is to be moved? Is it Ok to turn the drive
off without special attention?
(I do not have a manual that may have the answer to this).
4) Is the use of nonstandard partitions Ok? I made up a
partition by creating an entry in the WINCAP file, and it
looks fine so far. Specifically, I have 30 Mb divided up
into 5-10-10-5.
I realize I could probably find out some of the limits by
trial and error, but I'm afraid there may be some inconsistent
ones I may miss.
What are some benchmarks I may use to evaluate the
'performance' of the drive? I'd like to run something that's been
done on the Supra and Atari drives, to make a realistic comparison.
Thanks in advance for the help/advice.
-ravi
{seismo, decvax, ucbvax, ihnp4}!mcnc!raviapratt@atari.UUcp (Allan Pratt) (12/29/86)
> 1) What is the '40 folder limit' that's been bandied about > on the net? Can one not have more than 40 folders on the > disk (this does not make sense), or is one limited to > visiting 40 folders in a session? Do multiple openings > of a folder count towards the total more than once? I have written at length about the 40-folder limit. To summarize, IT IS DANGEROUS TO KEEP MORE THAN 40 FOLDERS ON YOUR HARD DISK AT ANY TIME, ACROSS ALL LOGICAL DEVICES. YOU MIGHT GET AWAY WITH IT FOR SHORT PERIODS, BUT IT IS LIKE A LOADED GUN: JUST POINT AND CLICK. > 2) Is there a limit on the number of files one can have in > a folder, or on a logical disk? Please comment on any > and all limits.. The root directory of each logical device of your hard disk can hold 256 entries. Subdirectories (folders) can hold any number of entries. The desktop can only display a limited number of items in all its windows (I forget this limit, but it might be around 256). > 3) Should the head parking program (I presume that's what > SHIP.PRG does) be run each time the drive is powered down), > or only if it is to be moved? Is it Ok to turn the drive > off without special attention? The SHIP program does indeed park the head, and should only be used when the drive is going to be moved. This is because the parking area might be dirtier than the rest of the platter, so it's a tradeoff between a dirty landing zone and possibly crashing on good data. It is okay to power down the drive without special attention, but the recommended power up/down sequence has the ST last on/first off. Finally, the drive's controller needs a reset from the computer after it's powered up, so don't cycle power on the drive unless you're willing to reset your computer. > 4) Is the use of nonstandard partitions Ok? I made up a > partition by creating an entry in the WINCAP file, and it > looks fine so far. Specifically, I have 30 Mb divided up > into 5-10-10-5. Nonstandard partitioning is fine. It sounds like you got parts of the hard-disk driver/installer from somebody else, and this is dangerous, especially when you're working with a non-Atari hard disk. The Atari hard-disk partitioning program has a number of preset partitions which you can pick off a menu, or you can set up your own partition sizes from a partition-editor dialog. No single device can be more than 16 Meg. > What are some benchmarks I may use to evaluate the > 'performance' of the drive? I'd like to run something that's been > done on the Supra and Atari drives, to make a realistic comparison. I don't know. Reading the entire disk sequentially and in a random order (same random order for both manufacturers, of course) comes to mind. Thank you, Ravi, for describing your home-brewed hard disk so completely. I know you realize this, but maybe everybody else doesn't: non-Atari hard disks like this one can't be supported by Atari Corp. That means don't call us with your problems, and you're on your own as far as formatters, partitioners, and drivers are concerned. The driver is a critical part of the Atari product, and it probably won't work with a non-Atari drive. Even if it does, it is PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE, and should be treated accordingly. /----------------------------------------------\ | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt \----------------------------------------------/
jmc@ptsfa.UUCP (Jerry Carlin) (12/30/86)
In article <501@atari.UUcp> apratt@atari.UUcp (Allan Pratt) writes: >> 1) What is the '40 folder limit' that's been bandied about >> on the net?... >I have written at length about the 40-folder limit. To summarize, > IT IS DANGEROUS TO KEEP MORE THAN 40 FOLDERS ON YOUR HARD > DISK AT ANY TIME, ACROSS ALL LOGICAL DEVICES. YOU MIGHT > GET AWAY WITH IT FOR SHORT PERIODS, BUT IT IS LIKE A LOADED > GUN: JUST POINT AND CLICK. Actually research has shown the limit to be about 60 although Supra corporation said they have extended it to about 90 by some magic. Typically apparently you are ok if you exceed the limit while reading but rumor has it you may trash the disk while writing. I've backed up my hard disk (~45 folders) to floppies using MichTron's Backup utility (another ~45 folders on various floppies) with no ill affects. I believe the problem is with GEM / desktop. The problem is also with Atari who refuses to tell us when they will fix this (and other) problems except to say "we're working on it" and "real soon now" and "the check is in the mail". Hey guys, you're profitable now and you should start fixing problems. PS: I've heard rumors that Atari will come out with a real cheap laser printer. I want one but I'll be very reluctant to buy one unless and until Atari promises to fix problems/bugs in a TIMELY manner. My ST is not a business machine yet but with a laser printer and better bug fix policy it might become one. -- voice= 415 823-2441 uucp={ihnp4,dual,qantel}!ptsfa!jmc
apratt@atari.UUcp (Allan Pratt) (12/31/86)
ptsfa!jmc writes: > I've backed up my hard disk (~45 folders) to floppies using MichTron's > Backup utility (another ~45 folders on various floppies) with no ill > affects. I believe the problem is with GEM / desktop. You are wrong. The problem is not with GEM / desktop, the problem is in a limited- resource manager in GEMDOS. I cannot stress this enough. If you can live on the edge, with all your hard-disk files in mortal danger of erasure (well, the directories & FAT, anyway), that's your business. I choose not to, and urge others to do the same. > The problem is also with Atari who refuses to tell us when they will > fix this (and other) problems except to say "we're working on it" > and "real soon now" and "the check is in the mail". We "refuse" to tell you because we do not know. We ARE working on it. I am personally working on it (all of GEMDOS). So are other people. We are also working on a lot of other things. Since this problem is not a showstopper -- you are able to use your machine -- we don't feel that fixing it alone warrants a new ROM release. In addition, this problem reaches to the very core of GEMDOS, and fixing it (and other GEMDOS irregularities) entails a complete rewrite. Adding blt (blitter) support, for example, does NOT entail a complete rewrite (just the conversion of software-blt code in the LINE-A interface to hardware-blt). Please, PLEASE stop spreading rumors to the effect that there is no limit on the number of folders you can safely have on your hard disk. There is a limit. Its parameters are nondeterministic, but we have determined that 40 is a safe number. If you lose your files and you had more than 40 folders on your disk, WE TOLD YOU SO. /----------------------------------------------\ | Opinions expressed above ARE those of Atari | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. | Corp. and should be those of everyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt \----------------------------------------------/
ravi@mcnc.UUCP (Ravi Subrahmanyan) (01/02/87)
[] I really should have made this clear in my posting: sorry. > .................... : non-Atari hard >disks like this one can't be supported by Atari Corp. That means don't call >us with your problems, and you're on your own as far as formatters, >partitioners, and drivers are concerned. The driver is a critical part >of the Atari product, and it probably won't work with a non-Atari drive. >Even if it does, it is PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE, and should be treated accordingly. > The BMS board comes with driver software that includes formatting, partitioning, and head parking programs. The drivers are supposedly 100% compatible with the Atari drivers (I haven't had any problems yet), and will also support the Adaptek 4000's capability of controlling 2 disk drives if anyone wants to use that option for added storage. In addition, programs for using the clock on the DMA-->SCSI board are also supplied. Thanks for the comments re. the file limits. May the Force guide your fingers as you punch in those bug-fixes Allan! Happy 1987, everyone.. -ravi
atwell@utah-cs.UUCP (Bart L. Atwell) (01/03/87)
In article <503@atari.UUcp> apratt@atari.UUcp (Allan Pratt) writes:
Since this problem is
not a showstopper -- you are able to use your machine -- we don't feel
that fixing it alone warrants a new ROM release. In addition, this
problem reaches to the very core of GEMDOS, and fixing it (and other
GEMDOS irregularities) entails a complete rewrite. Adding blt
(blitter) support, for example, does NOT entail a complete rewrite
(just the conversion of software-blt code in the LINE-A interface to
hardware-blt).
Does this imply that the ROM release with the blitter will not correct the
internal GEMDOS problems, but will just provide the necessary changes for
blitter operation?
Bart
atwell@utah-cschapman@fornax.UUCP (01/08/87)
> ptsfa!jmc writes: > > > I've backed up my hard disk (~45 folders) to floppies using MichTron's > > Backup utility (another ~45 folders on various floppies) with no ill > > affects. I believe the problem is with GEM / desktop. > > You are wrong. > > The problem is not with GEM / desktop, the problem is in a limited- > resource manager in GEMDOS. I cannot stress this enough. If you can > live on the edge, with all your hard-disk files in mortal danger of > erasure (well, the directories & FAT, anyway), that's your business. > I choose not to, and urge others to do the same. > > > The problem is also with Atari who refuses to tell us when they will > > fix this (and other) problems except to say "we're working on it" > > and "real soon now" and "the check is in the mail". > > We "refuse" to tell you because we do not know. We ARE working on it. > I am personally working on it (all of GEMDOS). So are other people. > We are also working on a lot of other things. Since this problem is > not a showstopper -- you are able to use your machine -- we don't feel > that fixing it alone warrants a new ROM release. In addition, this > problem reaches to the very core of GEMDOS, and fixing it (and other > GEMDOS irregularities) entails a complete rewrite. Adding blt > (blitter) support, for example, does NOT entail a complete rewrite > (just the conversion of software-blt code in the LINE-A interface to > hardware-blt). > > Please, PLEASE stop spreading rumors to the effect that there is no > limit on the number of folders you can safely have on your hard disk. > There is a limit. Its parameters are nondeterministic, but we have > determined that 40 is a safe number. If you lose your files and you > had more than 40 folders on your disk, WE TOLD YOU SO. > > /----------------------------------------------\ > | Opinions expressed above ARE those of Atari | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. > | Corp. and should be those of everyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt > \----------------------------------------------/ Info at last! Allan perhaps you could clear up some of the details for us: Is the 40 folder limit: 1. per disk or per partition 2. a "physical" limit or just the limit of the number of folders Gem/Tos can look at between resets, e.g. can you have >40 folders (safely) as long as you never try and access more than 40 between resets? 3. If it is just a limit between resets do folders on the floppy count towards the 40 limit? 4. Presumably the blitter will require a rom upgrade: will Atari attempt to fix the "40 folder limit" problem in that rom release? Unrelated (but interesting) question: some time ago the net heard that Atari was testing software to allow the ST to boot directly from the hard disk - can you tell us the status of this? will it require a rom upgrade too or just changing the boot sector of the hard disk or both? Thanks in advance for answers..... john
grunau_b@husc4.harvard.edu (justin grunau) (01/11/87)
In article <170@fornax.uucp> chapman@fornax.uucp (John Chapman) writes: . . . >Info at last! Allan perhaps you could clear up some of the >details for us: > >Is the 40 folder limit: > >1. per disk or per partition >2. a "physical" limit or just the limit of the number of folders > Gem/Tos can look at between resets, e.g. can you have >40 folders > (safely) as long as you never try and access more than 40 between > resets? >3. If it is just a limit between resets do folders on the floppy > count towards the 40 limit? > >4. Presumably the blitter will require a rom upgrade: will Atari > attempt to fix the "40 folder limit" problem in that rom release? > >Unrelated (but interesting) question: some time ago the net heard that >Atari was testing software to allow the ST to boot directly from the >hard disk - can you tell us the status of this? will it require a rom >upgrade too or just changing the boot sector of the hard disk or both? > >Thanks in advance for answers..... > >john I can answer questions 1 and 4 above with a reasonable degree of certainty, in case we do not get an answer from Atari soon, since I asked questions very much like these from Alan Pratt, and this is what my interpretation of what he told me is: 1. The limit is neither per disk nor per partition but PER SYSTEM: that is, you cannot have more than 40 folders ON ALL MEDIA attached to your system. And this is even regardless of whether the disks/partitions containing these folders are all "installed" on the GEM desktop (I am not sure why uninstalling the devices wouldn't solve the problem, but this is what I was told). The way you calculate your folders is by: (a) counting how many logical drives you have; a hard disk partitioned into four logical drives counts as four: each floppy drive counts as one. (b) if you have something in the cartridge slot, count that, too (c) then count the number of folders in EACH logical drive, including the floppy(/ies), and add those to (a) and (b). The important thing is not only to count the folders across all drives, but to count the drives (or logical drives) THEMSELVES (as well as the cartridge). So if you have a four-partitioned HD, and one floppy, and a ROM cartridge, and each of the logical drives has, say, five folders (AND SUB-FOLDERS: make sure you count all the way to the bottom of the tree -- "show info" does this for you), then your count is: 4+1+1+5+5+5+5+5 = 26. Clearly, this is unacceptable, especially since there is nothing in the soft- ware that begins to warn you when you approach the limit, and in fact figuring out how many folders your system thinks you have is obviously not easy: you have to remember to count everything, and be sure to do "Show Info" on all your drives regularly. It has been hinted that as long as you do not ACCESS all the folders, you might be safe; but what ACCESS means, I am not sure. I.e. if you access a folder that has N subdirectories, but only one subdirectory under the top level, then have you accessed 1, 2, or 1+N folders by opening the top one? I don't know. Does clicking on a logical drive "access" ALL its subdirectories, or only the top level? This has not been clarified. Obviously, what Mr. Pratt says is true: it is too dangerous even to HAVE more than 40 folders on your system because you might slip up and do the wrong thing, and there is danger of losing data on the HD. As far as your "unrelated" question is concerned: no, the blitter ROMs will not have this fix. It will not be fixed until GEMDOS is completely rewritten by Atari -- when this will get finished is anybody's guess. But considering how well I expect the Mega ST to be received, I think it should be high on their priorities, to break seriously into more than the home-hobbyist market. JJMG { seismo | rutgers | decvax!ihnp4 } !husc6!husc4!grunau_b
apratt@atari.UUcp (Allan Pratt) (01/13/87)
I am grateful to Justin Grunau (grunau@husc4.harvard.edu) for saving me from typing all that again. However, he did suggest something dangerous, and I would like to warn one and all about it: BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING "SHOW INFO" TO SEE HOW MANY FOLDERS YOU HAVE. Because "show info" goes all the way to the bottom of the tree, you run a great risk of exceeding the 40-folder limit just by counting your folders. A safer way is to "show info" one logical device at a time, then reset the machine before using "show info" on the next device. To answer one of the other questions, if you insert a floppy with five folders on it, you should count those five. If you then remove that floppy and insert one with ten folders, you can SUBTRACT the five and then ADD the ten from your mental count. Specifically, MEDIA CHANGE REMOVES THOSE FOLDERS FROM THE TALLY. Part of the problem is that you never get media change on a hard disk. In answer to another question: folders whose names you see in a Desktop window DO count -- you don't have to open them for them to count. Same goes for a folder which you see from a directory command from your shell (like Micro C Shell or command.prg). Moreover, folders you don't even see count: opening a file in a directory where there are five folders might add three to your tally, or two, or five, or none. The number is (informally) nondeterministic. That's why this is so dangerous. /----------------------------------------------\ | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt \----------------------------------------------/
braner@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (braner) (01/14/87)
[] So it's not just the hard disk: any drive with no media change possible has the capacity to cause mayhem... Could that be the problem I'm having with folders on the RAMdisk after I overwrite it with new data? Is there a way to force TOS to think the media has changed (on a hard disk or on the RAMdisk which always returns 'no change' from mediach()), with- out modifying the driving software? - Moshe Braner
franco@iuvax.UUCP (01/14/87)
After following this discussion I am left wondering why anyone would buy a system as screwed up as this one is. Surely, this is a joke or a great exaggeration. Right? (I hope)
braner@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (braner) (01/14/87)
[] IF giving GEMDOS a mediach() return value of "changed" once in while (for the hard disk) will solve the 40-folders bug, it should be trivial to write an utility that intercepts the mediach() vector and returns "changed" periodically (say every 10th call). Does anybody know if that would work? And should it return "maybe changed" or "definitely changed"? Is there another way to do it? If that does not solve it, how about a utility that keeps track of the number of folders you have "accessed"? This would mean intercepting the Rwabs() vector, looking at directory sectors when they are read, scanning the entries, finding out which are subdirectories, noting those down, and scanning those if they are later read. Not trivial, this one, but possible. It should print a warning on the screen when you're approaching the limit. - Moshe Braner
lbl@druhi.UUCP (01/15/87)
In article <513@atari.UUcp>, apratt@atari.UUCP writes: > I am grateful to Justin Grunau (grunau@husc4.harvard.edu) for saving > me from typing all that again. However, he did suggest something > dangerous, and I would like to warn one and all about it: > > BE CAREFUL ABOUT USING "SHOW INFO" TO SEE HOW MANY FOLDERS YOU HAVE. . . . > > To answer one of the other questions, if you insert a floppy with five > folders on it, you should count those five. If you then remove that > floppy and insert one with ten folders, you can SUBTRACT the five and > then ADD the ten from your mental count. Specifically, MEDIA CHANGE > REMOVES THOSE FOLDERS FROM THE TALLY. Part of the problem is that you > never get media change on a hard disk. > > /----------------------------------------------\ > | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. > | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt > \----------------------------------------------/ Allan, I'd like you to comment on an idea that I have that might provide a small "safety net" for the 40 folder problem. I'd like to insert some disk routine monitor code that sees every call to the disk read/write routines. At strategic intervals, yet to be determined, it would return a "media might have changed" status instead of a "success" status to the caller of the routines. Since GEMDOS uses these routines it would now sometimes get a media change from the hard disk. I am aware that this will not solve the 40 folder problem, but would it help at all in postponing the symptoms? Barry Locklear AT&T Information Systems Labs Denver, CO 80241 (303) 538-4954 ihnp4!drutx!druhi!lbl
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (01/19/87)
Providing "media might have changed" won't fix the 40-folder limit because when GEMDOS detects this state, it checks the serial number on the disk to see if it REALLY changed. Providing "media HAS changed" would be a BIG MISTAKE: Media-change causes all open files on the affected device to be SILENTLY CLOSED. This suggestion, however, spawned a discussion here at Atari which might result in a backpatch for all existing ST systems which would fix the problem: a TSR routine which "trims the tree" from outside GEMDOS, to keep it from overflowing. Stay tuned... /----------------------------------------------\ | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt \----------------------------------------------/