rstpierr@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Pete St.Pierre) (01/14/87)
I was told that even with a hard disk set up... The ST still needs a a disk
in the floppy drive to boot. Is this really the case? It seems to be a bit of a
waste.
Replies:
USnail Pete St.Pierre UUCP: wanginst!ulowell!rstpierr
Box 2059
Univ of Lowell
Lowell, Ma. 01854ericr@hpvcla.HP.COM (Eric Ross) (01/16/87)
It is indeed true that a floppy is required to boot a hard disc system for both the Atari and the Supra hard discs. Supposedly, TOS has the hooks to boot off the hard disc, but nobody to this date has actually released the necessary boot image. Eric Ross ihnp4!hpfcla!hpvcla!ericr
apratt@atari.UUCP (01/16/87)
in article <942@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu>, rstpierr@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu (Pete St.Pierre) says: > I was told that even with a hard disk set up... The ST still needs a a disk > in the floppy drive to boot. Is this really the case? It seems to be a bit > of a waste. It is not necessary, but it saves time: The ST checks for a boot sector on your floppy first, then on the hard disk. If there's a floppy there, it reads the boot sector, notices that it's not executable, and goes right to the hard disk. Without a floppy, it tries (and retries...) to read with no luck. This adds about 10 seconds (maybe less) to the boot time. My boot disk is labelled "BOOT DISK," is write-protected, and is utterly blank. /----------------------------------------------\ | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt \----------------------------------------------/
chapman@fornax.uucp (John Chapman) (01/20/87)
> in article <942@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu>, rstpierr@ulowell.cs.ulowell.edu > (Pete St.Pierre) says: > > > I was told that even with a hard disk set up... The ST still needs a a disk > > in the floppy drive to boot. Is this really the case? It seems to be a bit > > of a waste. > > It is not necessary, but it saves time: The ST checks for a boot sector > on your floppy first, then on the hard disk. If there's a floppy there, > it reads the boot sector, notices that it's not executable, and goes > right to the hard disk. Without a floppy, it tries (and retries...) > to read with no luck. This adds about 10 seconds (maybe less) to the > boot time. > > My boot disk is labelled "BOOT DISK," is write-protected, and is utterly blank > /----------------------------------------------\ > | Opinions expressed above do not necessarily | -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. > | reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. | ...lll-lcc!atari!apratt > \----------------------------------------------/ I assume this means Atari hard disks are now being shipped so that they will boot up directly without having to load a driver from floppy - if so the dealers around here (Vancouver) don't know about it (I went and talked to a couple after seeing the above replay from Allan Pratt) - they also seem to think the 40 folder limit has been solved by Atari. ???????
Patrick@ark.cs.vu.nl (Patrick van Kleef) (01/20/87)
In article <4730003@hpvcla.HP.COM> ericr@hpvcla.HP.COM (Eric Ross) writes: >It is indeed true that a floppy is required to boot a hard disc system for >both the Atari and the Supra hard discs. Supposedly, TOS has the hooks >to boot off the hard disc, but nobody to this date has actually released >the necessary boot image. > >Eric Ross >ihnp4!hpfcla!hpvcla!ericr Atari Benelux *has* supplied me with an INSTALL.PRG which makes the harddisk auto-booting. My 1040 ST checks to see whether there's a disk in the 3,5 inch drive, and then proceeds to the harddisk. There it loads programs from the auto folder on drive C: (providing, ofcourse, there wasn't a disk in the 3,5 inch diskdrive). If appreciated, I can post this program (if no copyright infringements occur), but Neil and Alan are free to do similar thing also :) As far as the 40-folder limit is concerned: a couple of weeks ago I sent Alan Pratt the program Atari Benelux (Benelux, BTW, stands for Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg) distributes with the comment that it prevents the 40-folder trouble. And my harddisk contained more than 85 folders without problems (Russian roulette in Alan's opinion - maybe I was lucky). The guy at Atari Benelux said this program patches Gem. I'm a layman, so I just used that program.~r Does Alan have any comments on that patch utility yet?
grunau_b@husc4.UUCP (01/23/87)
In article <176@fornax.uucp> chapman@fornax.uucp (John Chapman) writes: ... {he quotes Mr. Pratt as implying that on his in-house machine he ... can boot from HD} > >I assume this means Atari hard disks are now being shipped so that they will >boot up directly without having to load a driver from floppy - if so the >dealers around here (Vancouver) don't know about it (I went and talked to a >couple after seeing the above replay from Allan Pratt) - they also seem to >think the 40 folder limit has been solved by Atari. ??????? Simply because Mr. Pratt may have an in-house Self-Booting hard disk does by no means imply that hard disks are being shipped this way. If they were, I have every reason to believe that we would have heard this -- and more significantly, that even a dealer in Vancouver might have had a chance to have heard this. It is I would strongly suggest far more likely that the self-booting capability is purely an Atari-internal phenomenon at this point, presumably because it is always best to be safe about these things before releasing them! When Atari gets around to releasing this capability, I am sure we will all hear about it, and I am also sure those of us who already have hard disks will be able to use the new self-booting capabilities, also. Yelling at Atari is not likely to get us this capability any sooner than if we just wait for it. It just doesn't make sense to jump at every vague rumour and clamour for something that is obviously going to make it to us as soon as it is ready. This goes for the 40 folder limit, also: it has been made amply clear that the limit will be fixed WHEN it gets fixed, and asking at every conceivable chance if it is fixed yet is not going to get it ready any quicker! JJMG { seismo | rutgers | decvax!ihnp4 } !husc6!husc4!grunau
casper@targon.UUCP (Casper Jansen) (01/24/87)
Lines : 350
HDBOOT.ARC (in uuencoded format) contains the following files:
INSTALL.DOC : Documentation
INSTALL.PRG : The instalation program
INSTALL.RSC : The resource file
With these programmms you will be able to make your ST bootable
from the Atari harddisk. It will also load any acccesoires
and auto files from the
harddisk, so no more floppy needed!
begin 777 hdriver.arc
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endneil@atari.UUCP (01/24/87)
In article <176@fornax.uucp>, chapman@fornax.uucp (John Chapman) writes: > > It is not necessary, but it saves time: The ST checks for a boot sector > > on your floppy first, then on the hard disk. If there's a floppy there, > > it reads the boot sector, notices that it's not executable, and goes > > right to the hard disk. Without a floppy, it tries (and retries...) > > to read with no luck. This adds about 10 seconds (maybe less) to the > > boot time. > > My boot disk is labelled "BOOT DISK," is write-protected, and is utterly blank > I assume this means Atari hard disks are now being shipped so that they will > boot up directly without having to load a driver from floppy - if so the > dealers around here (Vancouver) don't know about it (I went and talked to a > couple after seeing the above replay from Allan Pratt) - they also seem to > think the 40 folder limit has been solved by Atari. ??????? There is a program that we in Atari have been experimenting with that writes the boot code to the hard drive. That's what Allan refers to. Unfortunately, for various and sundry reasons this program is not now in general distribution, and is not likely to be. After all, if your hard disk insists on booting itself, how can you run a program that insists on booting from floppy? Netlanders can probably solve this problem, but it is thought that Joe Average would have more difficulty. At any rate, the problem appears to be solvable. Aside from that, we have released no updates to the 40-folder limit. I expect this limit to be increased substantially if and when we release a rev to the TOS ROMs. However, such a rev is not currently scheduled, although the TOS changes are being worked on by Atari staffers. -- --->Neil @ Atari ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil BIX: neilharris CIS: 70007,1135 Delphi: NEILHARRIS GENIE: nharris WELL: neil Atari Corp. BBS 408-745-5308
fouts@orville.UUCP (01/25/87)
In article <541@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: >. . . > >Aside from that, we have released no updates to the 40-folder limit. I >expect this limit to be increased substantially if and when we release a rev ^^ Neil, are you trying to tell me I should have brought the vasaline? What the Hull do you mean IF? The stuff is broken. You owe it to your established customer base and their value to you as word of mouth advertising to fix the stuff and get a new ROM out. Can you say "Customer support?"
chapman@fornax.UUCP (01/26/87)
> In article <176@fornax.uucp> chapman@fornax.uucp (John Chapman) writes: > ... {he quotes Mr. Pratt as implying that on his in-house machine he > ... can boot from HD} > > > >I assume this means Atari hard disks are now being shipped so that they will > >boot up directly without having to load a driver from floppy - if so the > >dealers around here (Vancouver) don't know about it (I went and talked to a > >couple after seeing the above replay from Allan Pratt) - they also seem to > >think the 40 folder limit has been solved by Atari. ??????? > > > Simply because Mr. Pratt may have an in-house Self-Booting hard disk does by > no means imply that hard disks are being shipped this way. If they were, I > have every reason to believe that we would have heard this -- and more > significantly, that even a dealer in Vancouver might have had a chance to > have heard this. It is I would strongly suggest far more likely that the > self-booting capability is purely an Atari-internal phenomenon at this point, > presumably because it is always best to be safe about these things before > releasing them! When Atari gets around to releasing this capability, I am > sure we will all hear about it, and I am also sure those of us who already > have hard disks will be able to use the new self-booting capabilities, also. > Yelling at Atari is not likely to get us this capability any sooner than > if we just wait for it. > > It just doesn't make sense to jump at every vague rumour and clamour for > something that is obviously going to make it to us as soon as it is ready. > This goes for the 40 folder limit, also: it has been made amply clear that > the limit will be fixed WHEN it gets fixed, and asking at every conceivable > chance if it is fixed yet is not going to get it ready any quicker! > > JJMG > > { seismo | rutgers | decvax!ihnp4 } !husc6!husc4!grunau Oh come on! You get up on the wrong side of the bed or what? First of all Mr. Pratt did not imply *internal* (to Atari) hard disks could boot; he stated in a reply to someone elses query that you could boot without a floppy. The implication was that they might have decided to start shipping them that way. So I did the reasonable thing - I went down and talked to a couple of dealers and they didn't know a thing about it and so I asked the original source to clarify (Mr. Pratt). Now just what the hell is wrong with that? Secondly, I was hardly "yelling". Thirdly, a statement from Allan Pratt is hardly a "vague rumour" The comment about forty folders was not particularily intended as a question (although I admit it may have looked like one) since I had just read his comments about the problem (and believe it or not my memory extends waaayyy back beyond last week) - it was intended more as a comment on that particular dealer's knowledge of his/Atari's product. Just what do you think this net is for if not the dissemination of information? I'd like to point out that Atari now has an idea for fixing the 40-folder problem (and I think 10 folders/1k is acceptable) that does not require a complete Gem rewrite. This solution is apparently the result of comments/questions made by someone else on the net in repsonse to answers by Atari to other questions about the problem. This is the net at it's best - competent people asking questions and generating information/solutions. We would be looking at a solution for a *long* time if that person hadn't asked those pesky questions! We know also know Atari has a boot in regular use internally - that is valuable information that we would not otherwise have had and you can now make educated guesses about the availability of it. People do like to be able to plan you know. Sometimes even being told that X will not happen for at least Y time, if ever, is worth knowing since it does let you make more informed decisions about development/purchases/etc. You obviously don't know much about the dealers here (based on your comment) so I'll give you an example (other than the 40 folder fix claim). I bought my ST in Ontario (from a dealer who seemed to take some trouble to keep informed of what Atari was doing) and then moved to Vancouver. When the ROMs finally came out I tried to get them locally at three stores with the following results: 1. ROMs? We haven't heard anything about that. 2. Yes we have them but only for people who bought their machine here - Atari will only sell us enough for our previous customers. 3. Sure we can sell you the ROMs but only if you also buy this really nifty CAD/CAM package for $250 that needs the RAM freed up by the ROMs. I finally got a friend in Ontario to go to the store where I got my machine explain the situation and buy the ROMs for me and then ship them to me here. The dealers here (that I have encountered) know very little. I have also had a dealer claim that there was no 40 folder limit - up until I pointed the warning out in the manual. Lastly: I and a lot of other people performed an act of faith in Atari and bought the ST when it first came out even though TOS was in ram, there was no third party software, the basic was buggy, the promised rf modulator was nixed etc. etc. It is the people who did this that got it off the ground. I hardly think it unreasonable to ask a question once in a while; Atari doesn't have to (and quite often doesn't) answer them if they don't want to do they?? john p.s. JJMG are you sure you shouldn't work for <very large & obnoxious computer company> with that "don't ask we'll tell you when we feel like it you're just the CUSTOMER" approach?
dclemans@mntgfx.UUCP (01/26/87)
I've tried this (on a 520 ST with 1 megabyte, SH-204 hard disk) with no real problems. One thing to note is that you should set up the auto folder with the hard disk driver as described in install.doc. While the system will mostly work without it, I was getting some errors on large DMA transfers. This driver will also let you boot the system with no floppies attached. One warning; this package installs code in the master block of the drive (the one that describes the partions). It also grabs a few other blocks for its own use to save the actual driver. If you then reformat the formatter can clobber the blocks with the actual driver, while leaving the boot sector in place. This makes it difficult to bring up the system (the ROM's will see the boot sector and load it; but the boot sector won't be able to find its driver and will crash). To get around this you'll either have to use a disk version of TOS, or (with everything powered up) carefully unplug the hard disk from the ST and reset the ST. When the ST is at the desktop, plug the hard disk cable back in carefully. Then manually run ahdi.prg (or whatever driver you use) and re-install the auto boot. dgc