UD140469@NDSUVM1.BITNET.UUCP (02/22/87)
For the most part, I'm in agreement with Simon... I can't comment on any
possible effects the new Amigas might have on Atari (this was the first time
I'd ever even heard of the A500--I'm kind of out in the computer booneys (sp?))
, but, having worked at a computer store that also developes Atari software,
I've experienced first-hand the problems of vaporware and Atari developer
support. In regards to vaporware, both Atari and Jack Tramiel have reputations
for producing mounds of the stuff, and that can make it very hard to sell what
you already have. In regards to developer support, oooohhhh, shudder. When
my store ordered their developer pack, it came (about 4-6 weeks after we'd sent
for it) in a box that was about a foot square, with the five or so disks at the
bottom of the box (they weren't destroyed, thank goodness). There was a number
given in there for developer's support--in the person of Richard Frick. When
we called that number, about 50% of the time he wasn't around (he always seemed
to be at a show someplace, or preparing for one, or on vacation). If he wasn't
there, most of the time there was NO ONE ELSE to answer our questions. If he
was there, about 40% of the time he could give us a helpful answer over the
phone. Another 20% of the time he said he'd send us some sample code (which
either never came, or came after we'd called and asked for it several times--
several WEEKS later). The rest of the time he'd not be able to give us an
answer. Because of this terrible developers enviroment, our programers were
basically unable to get anything done until OSS Pascal came in! In fact, the
person who was still using the Developer's C often refered to the OSS Manual
to try to figure out just what a routine was asking for!
In contrast to this, let me relate an experience I had with the OLD Atari:
A teacher friend of mine loaned me his copy of the old PILOT language to fool
around with. For some reason, I wanted to do the equivalent of PEEKing and
POKEing in that lang., but the manual didn't tell you how to. So, I just dug
out my 800 number for Atari (gee, what's an Atari 800 number?!), called them
up, and asked. The lady who answered said she'd send me some information and
asked me for my name and address (didn't ask for any proof of ownership, or
anything) and told me she'd get the info right off. Two *DAYS* later it came:
a 50-60 page photocopied reference of technical pilot info and internal memos!
I was floored. Ah, for the old days...
As for the Atari PC, I don't know if I agree with Simon or not... It seems
to me that nobody in the business world will even look at you if they don't
see the name IBM or IBM clone--take for example the weekly magazine, Computer
World--when they did a report on the recent CES show, they didn't even mention
the Mega machines, just the PC... Oh well.
**************************************************************
What I'd like Atari to do... (or Scott Udell's pipe dreams)
Wouldn't it be great if Atari started an major tradein/upgrade policy?
Take for instance Apple and the Apple II--I hear that you will be able to
upgrade an Apple II+ to an Apple IIGS with a board upgrade that, while still
expensive, isn't the price of a new GS. Say if you could send in your 1040
and enough $ to cover the extra cost (beyond cost of parts recoverable from the
1040) plus enough to make some profit, and Atari would send you back a Mega
machine... They are already doing this on a small scale with 520s--you can
send in your 520 along with $90 to get a motherboard refit (or is it a complete
ly new machine?), that would include roms (even if your old unit didn't have
them), the r/f modulator, and the newest revision of the motherboard. They
can then scavenge the rest of the parts for re-use. Such a trade in policy
would also stop any possible flood of way-underpriced used 520/1040's from
hitting the market, there by hurting Atari's profits in the sales to completely
new ST owners.... Hey... JT? ST? LT? Allan? Neil? You guys listening?
Hey, knock knock... anybody in Atari paying attention to us?
Comments, anybody?
Scott Udellali@navajo.UUCP (02/22/87)
In article <8702220708.AA17612@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> Scott Udell writes: >For the most part, I'm in agreement with Simon... I can't comment on any >possible effects the new Amigas might have on Atari (this was the first time >I'd ever even heard of the A500--I'm kind of out in the computer booneys... A500 and A2000 are two new Amigas. Commodore hasn't announced them yet, don't worry about not hearing about them. They were "rumor" until recently, but not anymore. Some magazines just published articles about the A2000 --- The March Byte, for instance, has a pretty long article about it. Both the A500 and A2000 are Amiga 1000 (the current Amiga) compatible, except the A500 is $600, and is a repackaged version, minus some parts but more memory, and the A2000 is a highly open version with many expansion slots. But both the A500 and the A2000 come with the same OS and same set of blitter chips and 8.5 Meg memory expansion capability of the current Amiga. The A2000 has provisions for hooking up 8088/8087 and 68020/68881 boards, and comes with 1 Meg RAM. With the 8088/8087 (or also, I think, 80286/80287) the A2000 becomes 100% IBM compatible (just like the current Amiga with the Sidecar expansion). Commodore will also make available a high-persistance monitor with the machine. Please read the Byte article if interested; I don't know much more about these machines and haven't read the article yet... >Wouldn't it be great if Atari started an major tradein/upgrade policy? >Take for instance Apple and the Apple II--I hear that you will be able to >upgrade an Apple II+ to an Apple IIGS with a board upgrade that, while still >expensive, isn't the price of a new GS. There is a letter in Feb 10 issue of a Bay Area magazine called Computer Currents. The letter is from an Apple IIe owner who is terribly excited about hearing about this tradein for the IIGS. So he asks his dealer, asks Apple, and comes up with a $1625 (+ tax) price tag for upgrading his Apple II into a IIGS. That is almost the price of a new IIGS! Anyway, the story has a happy ending. He gives his Apple IIe to his son, and buys an Amiga system instead, which leaves with several hundred dollars and a much superior machine than the IIGS. Ali Ozer, ali@navajo.stanford.edu
john@viper.UUCP (02/23/87)
I have also had experiences similar to the ones described by Scott Udell with the "old Atari" and the "new Atari". The old Atari was a company that would provide good useful information to the people who beleived in them. The new Atari seems to only care about the monthly profit/loss sheet and doesn't seem to think they owe anything to anyone below the million dollar a year development companys. I'm tired of weak documentation and no answers from the only source quaified to give them. I know Atari is trying to rebuild, but ignoring the users and building a backlog of hostility isn't going to produce profits. I've said it befor and I'll say it again. The users (-any- user, not just the peole who shell out $300 for a substandard "developers" kit) deserve at -minimum- a COMPLETE technical reference manual with a good index which documents -ALL- (can you say "ALL" boys and girls?) system calls -and- bugs. This manual should be available thru any local Atari dealer and shouldn't cost anything near $300. ($30-50 would be my guess.) I could list over 25 people I know personaly who bought the ST because of 1st word. What does Atari do? They drop 1st-Word from the newer machines to cut costs.... (sigh) Doesn't -anyone- at Atari read these messages? How can we get them to listen?? Don't they care that users and developers are starting to get angry? Any ideas??
cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (02/24/87)
In article <8702220708.AA17612@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, UD140469@NDSUVM1.BITNET (Scott Udell) writes: > Wouldn't it be great if Atari started an major tradein/upgrade policy? > Take for instance Apple and the Apple II--I hear that you will be able to > upgrade an Apple II+ to an Apple IIGS with a board upgrade that, while still > expensive, isn't the price of a new GS. > Comments, anybody? > Scott Udell According to a Letter to computer currents from an irate Apple II+ owner the cost of the GS upgrade does not include some mandatory items, specifically the cost is broken dow into : GS Motherboard $499 Dealer Installation $40 New Disk Drive (3.5") $500 RGB Monitor $499 New cables (modem,prt) $50 Cooling Fan $40 ------- Cost To Upgrade $1,628 So why upgrade? You can get an Amiga or Atari instead. This was what the reader claimed he would do. -- --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
leavens@atari.UUCP (03/05/87)
> > Doesn't -anyone- at Atari read these messages? > How can we get them to listen?? > Don't they care that users and developers are starting to get angry? > > Any ideas?? I'm here and I'm listening, and will do all I can to help. The technical books are on the way--but they are being written by an out of house writing group, and we have no control over when they get done. For those who remember the very beginnings of the old Atari, most of us went around for the first two years, desperately trying to get ahold of the technical reference notes-- it wasn't until the 800 had been out a while (read a couple of years) before the docs started becoming available. If you have technical questions about the machine, a language, etc., call our Tech Support Linesa 408-745-2004, 2005, or 2006. I promise you'll get an answer to your question (and if my people or I don't know the answer, we'll find out). We're a lot smaller than the old Atari was, but we're sincerely trying to do what you want. Thanks! --alex leavens (Technical Support Manager @Atari) BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS