K538915@CZHRZU1A.BITNET.UUCP (02/20/87)
(Sorry I accidently sent out a broken copy of this)
Reading the reports on the CES and the previews of stuff to be
shown at CeBit in Germany, I can't help wondering if the ST line
of computers has a future in the current form. My slightly
negative remarks naturally are relevant only to the european situation:
-If Commodore can deliver the A500 (Amiga in a 1040ST like
box with a redesigned keyboard) for the price which has
been mentioned in the mags the 1040 is just dead. I just can't
think of a reason to still buy one. Atari would have to bring
the price down to about half of what it is now, to have any chance
at all of still selling the 1040. Now you might say: 'But there
are the Mega-St's, what about them?'. We all know that they are
just a repacked 1040 with some cosmetic changes, which should
have been done for the 1040 in the first place and for 99 percent
of all 'non programming' users 1 MB is enough memory (not counting
the use of a Mega-ST as a laser-printer controller).
-The one real advantage of the ST over the Amiga: The
monochrome monitor has successfully been destroyed
by Atari with the introduction of the "less quality for the
same money" SM125 monitor, the local shop used to have to
check the SM124's it got for maladjustment, now they have
to check the SM125's if they work at all! And the picture
quality is about the same of the worst IBM-PC monitor I've seen
(monochrome naturally).
-There have been no fundamental advances in the capabilities
of the ST series over the last one and a half year, in fact Atari
has changed to a major manufacturer of vaporware: nobody
will denie that the chances that the blitter chip will ever be
finished are practically zero and that the MS-Emulator is just
a laugh (YES, I have seen them at exhibitions, but that doesn't
change the vaporware status!). What makes a lot of ST owners
grit their teeth is that the money earned from ST sales and
the efforts of the Atari hardware development team has gone
in to, of all things the Atari PC! Just think what the ST could
be like now, if Atari had done all that work on the ST line!
-The more advanced 68000 market which supposedly the Mega-ST's
are aimed at, will be buying (if they don't go for Apple) the
Amiga 2000, a machine with open architecture and PC compatibility.
As far as I could see from the previews this machine solves
all hardware problems there were with the Amiga 1000. Does Atari
have anything comparable: no! (BTW this machine is not vaporware,
Commodore Switzerland offered us one in place of the Amiga 1000
we are testing now).
-In software support of the ST line Atari has failed totally:
any company I can think of is able of producing some kind
of OS documentation that earns its name in one and a half
years, but not Atari. And then all those not and probably
never fixed bugs in GEM and TOS, and I don't mean the 40
folder bug, I mean things like the file selector underscore bug
or the bugs in the RS232 interrupt handler where it is just
unbelievable that they can't be fixed in a reasonable time.
-Even if Atari has some new 68000/68020 machines in development,
I just don't think there will be any market left by the time
they will leave the lab, if ever.
Conclusion:
If Atari can't turn up with some real advances in the ST line
real soon now, I don't really see any perspective for the ST
line in a year or so. The matter would be different if Atari had
managed to create a loyal following of ST owners, but the way
the pioneer buyers have been hit by the NON upgrade policy
of Atari, I consider that highly unlikely.
The thing that I would like most, is for Atari to prove me wrong!
Simon Poole
K538915@CZHRZU1A.BITNET
PS:
In article <835@ubc-cs.UUCP> manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) writes:
>........................ They did a reasonable job on the TOS ROM upgrade,
>and the imminent blitter/ROM upgrade (which my dealer quotes CAN$50.00 on).
>........^^^^^^^^
|
you don't really believe that?
Even if the chip and the TOS rewrite would be finished now:
2-3 months beta test with TOS on disk, distribution to developers
1-2 months starting of production of blitter and roms
for the Mega-ST's (Europeans: add half a year here)
2-3 months production absorbed by new Mega-ST's and new 1040's
1-2 months production of a board to retro-fit
the old Mega-ST's (quote Data Welt's interview with Shiraz Shivji:
"The Mega-ST's can be fitted very easly with the blitter-chip",
(translated from the german interview)).
2-3 months production of a board for the old 1040's (if possible!)
---
8-13 months before you can even think of getting the blitter for
an old 1040.
K538915@CZHRZU1A.BITNET.UUCP (02/23/87)
A slight misunderstanding might arise from my remarks about the future of
the ST line of computers, just to clarify:
-I am a satisfied customer of Atari, when I got my 520ST it was and still is
a lot of computer for the money.
-What worries me, is that Atari has let the lead that it had in price, speed
and memory melt away and has not improved its products enough to be a
serious contender for the 68000 market in 1987.
-Atari can get away with all the things I critized in my previous posting
as long as they produce computers which are really the best value and
the best technology for the money.
Simon Poole
K538915@CZHRZU1A.BITNETsansom@trwrb.UUCP (02/23/87)
For those of you who don't want to read my responses to Simon's critical article, skip to the end - there's something there for all ST owners on the net. Atari, if you're reading this, please _don't_ skip to the end. > -If Commodore can deliver the A500 (Amiga in a 1040ST like > box with a redesigned keyboard) for the price which has > been mentioned in the mags... Simon, what is the price quoted in the mags (for that matter, which mags are you talking about?). I've never heard of the A500, can you tell us what some of its features (as opposed to the A200) will be? > -The one real advantage of the ST over the Amiga: The > monochrome monitor has successfully been destroyed > by Atari with the introduction of the "less quality for the > same money" SM125 monitor... This one is directed to the folks at Atari: is the SM125 going to replace the SM124, or is it the "multi-sync" monitor we've heard about? If you really did make the mistake of discontinuing the SM124, then Simon's predictions of doom sound much more plausible. > -There have been no fundamental advances in the capabilities > of the ST series over the last one and a half year, in fact Atari > has changed to a major manufacturer of vaporware... Again, this one is for Atari: why can't one of you guys give us a definitive answer about the blitter & rom upgrades? The fact that you won't speak up on this issue doesn't do much for our (existing ST owners) confidence in Atari. And, we know you _do_ read these questions - you only seem to answer the less painful ones (less painful, in the sense that they won't hurt your business as much). > -In software support of the ST line Atari has failed totally: > any company I can think of is able of producing some kind > of OS documentation that earns its name in one and a half > years, but not Atari... This is the most obvious problem with Atari, in terms of support. I've had the developers kit since September '85. Since then, the only upgrades I've received have come through Compuserve, where Atari has provided a _minimal_ amount of "support". There was some stuff of value there, but not nearly the amount you might have expected. And the stuff wasn't free either. I would say that I've spent at least $150-$200 just downloading the stuff I did want. And (grrr) the long awaited "official" documentation HAS NEVER MATERIALIZED. What is taking so long? >Conclusion: > If Atari can't turn up with some real advances in the ST line > real soon now, I don't really see any perspective for the ST > line in a year or so. The matter would be different if Atari had > managed to create a loyal following of ST owners, but the way > the pioneer buyers have been hit by the NON upgrade policy > of Atari, I consider that highly unlikely. Agreed. Now, for the NEW part: I think it's time we Atari ST net (Use*, BIT*, ARPA*) users pulled together and tried to make our collective voices heard up in Atari's HQ in Sunnyvale. I don't know how may of you are regular readers, but I would guess that it numbers somewhere in the thousands. If we can organize ourselves in such a manner as to ask questions and really get answers from Atari, we would all spend less time running around in circles trying to track down this critical information. Also, if we can prove our numbers, we can probably make a bigger impact on decisions made by Atari. What I propose is this: a poll will be sent out periodically to the net; all interested parties will respond to the poll, and send their responses to a central site which will collect and collate the data; the results will then be posted both to the net, and, by mail or whatever, to Atari. For this reason, I propose we name our group NAG (Net Atari Group - seems apropos). Since I have come up with this idea, I will also volunteer as coordinator for the whole thing. I know that this thing is probably not going to work exactly as planned, but I think it should make some difference in the amount of support we can expect to see from Atari. O.k., here is this week's poll: cut it out and fill in the blanks and either mail it me, or post it to the same place you got it. I'll collect everything over the next 2-3 weeks and then post the results. -- cut here -- Net Atari Group (NAG) Poll No. 1 - 2/23/87 Directions: read each question, fill in the "___"s with your answers. For those questions which require more descriptive answers, insert as many lines as you need on the line immediately following the question. Name (optional): ____________________ Date received: __________ Date sent: __________ #1 Do you think that NAG is a good idea? ___ #2 If you answered NO to #1 above, please give a brief explanation for your answer, and give any ideas which you might have which would go toward the same end as NAG: -- cut here -- That's all for this week's poll (it may be the only poll if response is less than I expect). Please, no flames to the net about this idea; I don't mind _private_ flames though. -Rich -- __________ ______ ____ _____ ___ /_________//___ ||__|/____|/__/ Richard E. Sansom ___ ____/ / ____________ TRW Electronics & Defense Sector / / / /\ < | /| / One Space Park Drive, R3/1028 / / / / \ \ | / | / Redondo Beach, CA 90278 /__/ /__/ \__\|__/ |__/ ...{decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!trwrb!sansom
grr@cbmvax.UUCP (02/24/87)
In article <1607@trwrb.UUCP> sansom@trwrb.UUCP (Richard Sansom) writes: > >> -If Commodore can deliver the A500 (Amiga in a 1040ST like >> box with a redesigned keyboard) for the price which has >> been mentioned in the mags... > >Simon, what is the price quoted in the mags (for that matter, which mags are >you talking about?). I've never heard of the A500, can you tell us what some >of its features (as opposed to the A2000) will be? For the sake of argument, the A500 is an Amiga redesigned to compete directly with the 520 and 1040. It retains the functionality of the original Amiga, including blitter and full expansion bus connector. Pricing and availability have not been announced yet. As compared to the A500, the A2000 has internal expansion slots, including optional PC bridge card, comes with real-time clock and 1MB vs. optional RTC/512K internal expansion. Most of the old Atari vs. Amiga comparisons still apply, including for that matter, the Mega-ST. The user just has a broader range of alternatives, and must make his own decisions based on features/price/preferences... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
engst@batcomputer.UUCP (03/01/87)
While I certainly agree that Atari should try its best to keep its customers
(and I mainly mean previous ones) happy, before I got my 1040 I had an Apple
II compatible, and I never felt that I suffered from not having the support
of Apple Corporation. I think most of my security came from the huge number
of expansion products put out by third parties, an act which I believe would
probably happen with the ST were (powers forbid) Atari to stop supporting
the line entirely. Nevertheless, I will add my voice to the many clamouring
for a sound (just a peep mind you) from Atari as to the future of the ST's.
Adam Engst
The above opinions can probably be proven incoherent in a court of law.leavens@atari.UUCP (03/05/87)
> > This one is directed to the folks at Atari: is the SM125 going to replace the > SM124, or is it the "multi-sync" monitor we've heard about? We have not, to my knowledge, replaced the SM124, nor are we going to do so. I know that the SM125 was made available in Europe, but if the picutre quality is not good, they should have it adjusted by their dealer, as it is apparently the same hardware in a different box. > >> -There have been no fundamental advances in the capabilities >> of the ST series over the last one and a half year, in fact Atari >> has changed to a major manufacturer of vaporware... > > Again, this one is for Atari: why can't one of you guys give us a definitive > answer about the blitter & rom upgrades? The fact that you won't speak up on > this issue doesn't do much for our (existing ST owners) confidence in Atari. > And, we know you _do_ read these questions - you only seem to answer the > less painful ones (less painful, in the sense that they won't hurt your > business as much). The blitter and ROMS are _done_. Our problem is with our supplier, who cannot seem to produce the things in any reasonable quantity (right now, we're averaging 1 or 2 chips _per wafer_. Not good.) Needless to say, we are trying to second source this, but redoing the chip stuff for a different manufacturer is non-trivial. I should have some more news in a couple of weeks. --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS
jmg@cernvax.UUCP (03/06/87)
In article <586@atari.UUCP> leavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) writes: > The blitter and ROMS are _done_. Our problem is with our supplier, who >cannot seem to produce the things in any reasonable quantity (right now, >we're averaging 1 or 2 chips _per wafer_. Not good.) Needless to say, >we are trying to second source this, but redoing the chip stuff for a >different manufacturer is non-trivial. I should have some more news in >a couple of weeks. Are these ROMs universal, or will we Europeans have to wait some extra time for English/German/French versions?
engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) (03/07/87)
This is just a short but appreciative THANKS to Alex Leavens and Neil Harris
for starting to write to the net. Keep it up guys, you're doing great!
adamleavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) (03/09/87)
in article <449@cernvax.UUCP>, jmg@cernvax.UUCP (jmg) says: > > Are these ROMs universal, or will we Europeans have to wait some extra > time for English/German/French versions? Probably have to wait a little bit for foreign language versions. Not long, though (we're talking about a week or so). --alex @ Atari BIX: alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006
neil@atari.UUCP (03/10/87)
In article <360@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) writes: > > This is just a short but appreciative THANKS to Alex Leavens and Neil Harris > for starting to write to the net. Keep it up guys, you're doing great! STARTING to write to the net???? I know Alex is new here, but what have I been doing for the past year -- sending notes to the void? Oh well, miss the net for two weeks and they forget all about you... Thanks for the nice words anyway. -- --->Neil Harris @ Atari...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil BIX: neilharris / CIS: 70007,1135 / Delphi: NEILHARRIS / GENIE: NHARRIS WELL: neil / Atari Corp. BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion