trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (04/23/87)
In article <620@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@aurora.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: >instead (nobody ever writes me 8^) ). I've owned an Amiga and an ST >almost since the day they were available. Me too. Although the amiga hasn't even been turned on in over 3 months except to check out certain utilities and pictures... >Atari User's Group . I know my ST's and I *Believe* I know my >Amiga's. The PD software for the ST is by and large *ABSOLUTE JUNK*. >This does not reflect poorly on ST programmers. I disagree. The local club has around 140+ disks of PD STuff of which a very good percentage is quality utilities and applications. There is a lot of junk out there, and I do think that the junk is simply because the ST has a lot of compilable languages available and everyone seems to be writing stuff lately (and I think that is great). Give the Amiga a good Pascal compiler, and a faster (and cheaper) C compiler, and maybe even something quick and dirty like GFA Basic and you will see the same thing on the Amiga. BTW, I don't consider demos when I say PD, since that tends to confuse things (i.e. the juggler and bouncing balls are neat, but after you have used them to show your spouse why you keep investing in computers does anyone ever run them again?) >excellence. The technical support for the Amiga is REAL, not virtual >like Atari's. We talk with Carolyn and George and Andy. ST people get >to talk to 'marketing'. Sadly, I agree. Atari may not realize it, but if the local clubs are like any other clubs, then what gets said on USENET is usually fed directly to the users for discussion at the local meetings...I know this happens at 3 of the local ST meetings...and the biggest complaint is the same...where is the support? (and lately, where is the product?) Atari is banking, apparently, on the clubs, us guru's, and 'third parties' (to quote an over-used atari keyword) to not only advertize the ST (I must have had my hand in around 75 ST purchases last year), document how to program the ST, and develop software for the ST, but also to provide technical support. I personally have no problem with this, but I wonder how Atari expects to get into the business world with their current attitudes. I appreciate the work Neil and everyone has done, but it doesn't appear to be enough and of sufficient substance. Back to the Amiga vs ST controversy...I really think it is more dependent upon which computer you have the most peripherals on and which you have used the most. They both have their gotcha's that at one time or another can cause lost data (i.e. my Amiga hangs at the most frustrating of times ... like when I am editing a very large file, etc.) The amiga has it's hold and modify workaround for getting lots of res for pictures, but try painting an original picture sometime with HAM...it is frustrating enough to make you buy a PC and a number 9 card. Lots of different uses for each computer and fanatics on both sides of the fence. For me, 1 meg of memory, 30 megs of disk space, a good C compiler environment (MWC 2.0), a good PASCAL compiler (OSS), a good color printer (Canon Ink jet), and a good color monitor (the old style) is enough to keep me happy. -Todd Burkey ..ihnp4!meccts!zeke!stag!trb p.s. I am currently sitting out on my deck typing this in on my MAC using Unix Windows...finally, i found a use for this thing! and uw is fantastic, as well.
franco@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (04/24/87)
What again? I am really get tired of this my X is better than your Y stuff. Everyone has a choice. I chose Atari because it is better for me. You chose Amiga because it is better for you. That's it, PERIOD. Now will you SHUT UP!
billw@wolf.UUCP (Bill Wisner) (05/03/87)
Atari owners, some of them anyway, ARE fanatic and blind. You, Jeff, are a
perfect example.
How can you expect the ST, which is, after all, the doing of someone who had
no involvement at all with the older computers, to be the same as your beloved
8-bit Atari machines?
For that matter, why would you want to?
I am simply heartbroken that the ST does not make an obnoxious beeping sound
whenever it accesses the disk.
The graphics are lousy, the sound is worse.
They are unbelievably overpriced.
Yes, I would trade my 1040ST for a slow and noisy Atari 400 anyday. I like
the membrane keyboard, ya know.
Get real. The ST makes the 8-bit machines look like a ten-cent prop from an
old science fiction movie. Sure, it has its faults, but so does any computer
you could buy. I have gotten errors on the Amiga for some of the dumbest
imaginable reasons. Sure, Atari may not have done the smartest thing when
they put TOS in ROM. But that doesn't make them the first company to do such
a thing.
And I LIKE having such a patheticly small amount of free space on each disk.
Why do you scream for people to reply to you via email, Jeff? Are you afraid
people might find out how unpopular you are?
There is such a thing, you know, as a classified ad. Or even an article posted
to misc.forsale. Then you could buy yourself an old Atari, settle back into
your crib, and happily drool on the keyboard until you attain some level of
maturity.
Oh dear, I am starting to write like obnoxio.
--
Bill Wisner
..{sdcsvax,ihnp4}!jack!wolf!billwsansom@trwrb.UUCP (Richard Sansom) (05/04/87)
In article <623@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@aurora.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: >...As I said A) EMAIL!! NOT THE NET. Can't you read!!??? ** FLAME ON ** Listen, Jeff, if you don't want to be flamed in public, then DON'T POST SUCH BIASED AND PROVOCATIVE ARTICLES TO THE NET!!! ** FLAME OFF ** Despite the fact that your remarks about the ST are apparently based on your own personal experiences, you have no right to make statements such as the following: >...The ST community at large does not know the meaning of the >word 'knowledgeable'... >...B) Atari owners are fanatic (and somewhat blind). In fact, even though most of the Amiga owners I know are computer illiterates, I don't believe for a moment that they are representative of Amiga owners in general - and I surely wouldn't go looking for a fight by posting that opinion on the comp.sys.amiga newsgroup if I did (haven't you ever heard of Netiquette?). To sum it all up: there is no way you are going to be able to post such inflammatory remarks about ANYONE's computer and expect to get nothing in return. -Rich -- /////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ /// Richard E. Sansom TRW Electronics & Defense Sector \\\ \\\ {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!trwrb!sansom Redondo Beach, CA /// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (05/04/87)
In article <1430@uwmacc.UUCP> oyster@unix.macc.wisc.edu.UUCP (Vicarious Oyster) writes: ><> > The point in question is one of both netiquette and misinformation, not >whether *you* happen to think brand X is better than brand Y. When people >who own brand X sit around waiting for a chance to scoff (however good- >naturedly) at brand Y, can you be at all surprised at the response? Not Waiting to scoff? You mean humor does not exists the comp.sys.atari.st? It sure as heck does! Don't you laugh at saving 100's of dollars over the Amiga only to get A). A piece of hardware that frys itself if you sneeze. B). A ROM'ed OS that isn't an OS. B1) A ROM'ed OS that loves losing memory (hell what's an OS supposed to do?). B2) A *ROM'ed* OS that figures if you want more than 40 directories your too disorganized and should start over. C) Tech support who plays games on GENIE (sheesh, you;d figure they'd use the ST, that's all it does well!). D) Tech support that thinks $A000 is a pricing list mis-print. On the point of brand X vs. brand Y. Misinformation? Where? I spoke the truth. So far EMAIL (can you read?) to me has been PRAISE from both ST owners and Amiga owners thanking me for setting the record straight. Amiga owners saying 'I agree' (what else!) and ST owners hoping A) Atari listens, and B) they hire me. >only did Fish's inane response have nothing to do with the ST per se, it >gave the erroneous impression that there are only 3 disks worth of PD >software available, an impression which was quickly corrected by more >knowledgeable people. USENET *does* have a few of these people I admit. The ST community at large does not know the meaning of the word 'knowledgeable'. > Wail about the ST's inferiority all you like, but if it's such a terrible >machine, and you never use it, then for God's and our sakes destroy the thing >and be done with it. Then you would never have to be forced to read this >newsgroup and be outraged by the idiots like me who somehow get satisfaction ^^^^^ (you got it, but Atari got your $$$ and mine.... sigh... that makes me one too. This time!!) (But I'd like to 'know' how your satisfied? Or do you just play games? You must set pretty low standards.) >out of owning an ST. As I said A) EMAIL!! NOT THE NET. Can't you read!!??? B) Atari owners are fanatic (and somewhat blind). C) Volume of PD programs 'do not quality make' and it was of 'quality' I spoke of. (respects to Simon, Konrad, et. al.) The worse thing is the old 8-bit Atari's were a great hack. Kudos to Jay and those responsible for the OS (yes a true OS) in the 8-bit jobs. The ST was a cruel joke played upon the brand loyality of Atari 8-bit owners. When I bought my ST the talk was how JT had 'changed'. Now it's how he's the same guy from CBM.... (sigh). Sorry for *WAILING*. But if I save a person from making a $400-$1500 mistake then it's worth it. I truly hope the next generation Atari machines are worthy of their 8-bit predecessors (SP?). The ST was not. -- Jeff Gortatowsky {seismo,allegra}!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a simple and complete disclaimer?
oyster@uwmacc.UUCP (05/05/87)
Somebody responds: >In article <623@elmgate.UUCP> jdg@aurora.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) writes: >>...As I said A) EMAIL!! NOT THE NET. Can't you read!!??? >Listen, Jeff, if you don't want to be flamed in public, then DON'T POST >SUCH BIASED AND PROVOCATIVE ARTICLES TO THE NET!!! For the record, that's exactly why I didn't bother with EMAIL (sic). After all, why do something just because some dweeb says I should?
engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) (05/05/87)
Jeff,
Since you obviously can't stand the ST or anything about it and obviously
just use your Amiga for everything since it does absolutely everything better
than absolutely everything else available for 17 times the money, I'd love to
take your ST off your hands, no actually, what I really want is a monochrome
monitor so I can have that 640x400 resolution that the Amiga has, oh but I
still won't be able to get the 4096 colors all simultaneously while I'm
working on my word processor and spreadsheet and database and playing a good
game of Marble Madness, all in different windows but all running at the same
time. Well, make it $80 for your ST monochrome monitor, then, and I'll take
the whole system for say, another $100, after all you said yourself it wasn't
worth anything at all not even a bulbous emu's pancreas.
Adam
P.S. I tried to respond via E-mail, but my letters kept getting bounced.
Oh well, maybe next time.
(Kudos to James Joyce!)bob@wiley.UUCP (05/07/87)
If we're putting in bids for Jeff's system, then I'll take it. I could
then run two programs simultaneously. No make that four with Beckmeyer's
csh, and I'll still have paid less than an Amiga. Oops, I made a slanted
statement. Oh, I guess I should have sent this through EMAIL, but you
know us Atari owners.
GROW UP, JEFF!
---Bob Amstadt
bob@wiley.uucp
{csvax.caltech.edu,trwrb.uucp}!wiley!bob