neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) (12/29/87)
In article <1479@saturn.ucsc.edu>, koreth@ssyx.ucsc.edu (Steven Grimm) writes: > The ST's BIOS is re-entrant. GEMDOS is not. (I have a multiuser BBS > system to prove it...) OK, Steven, where's my copy of the multiuser version? And whatever hardware it takes to make it work. Atari Base is waiting... Maybe I'd better backtrack a moment. Here in Atari, we run a free BBS for users. It's known as Atari Base, and can be reached at 408-745-5308. Here's the rub -- we run 5 lines into 5 separate systems. The line you get through to is simply the first available line. But, if you leave a question on that line, you'd better make darn sure you get back to that line. We're looking for a solution. We need a way for the lines to talk to each other. Solutions that have been discussed, in order of preference, are: 1. Multi-port RS232 box that lets several modems talk to one ST. The advantage is that we'd need one computer instead of 5. The disadvantage is that if the one system goes down, everything dies. We're willing to live with this, because system crashes have been extremely rare in the 2 years since Atari Base opened in its current configuration. 2. Network that lets each line share messages. At one time there was talk of trying a MIDI-based network, but work on this was shelved by QMI due to the inability to resolve conflicting RS232 and MIDI interrupts. Maybe "PromiseLAN" will solve this one. 3. Using a system like Fnet or Fidonet and having lines call each other to pass messages. Not too elegant in my book, and lines are only updated at intervals (probably daily), but we could do this today if we wanted to. The other burning issue is, which software to use? We're currently using the Michtron BBS. Michtron has abandoned its plan to sell a hardware multiport gizmo because the engineers in the UK who were working on one couldn't get it to work. FoReM 2.0 supports Fnet, so if we wanted to go to approach #3 we could do it. But with the number of novice callers we get, I'm a bit leery of using FoReM. Any comments to the contrary, netlanders? NiteLite Systems now has a hardware device to let 4 or 8 modems share an ST. Their BBS program supports this. But... well, I used NiteLite on the 8-bit before we went to the ST on our board. I like NiteLite's message facility, but the program needs improving in the user log (not sorted at all) and the download area. Paul Swanson, NiteLite's author, is working at making improvements, and is very willing to take criticism and act upon it. BB/ST is very powerful, and Steven Grimm is working on the multi-line facility. But we're still waiting on some hardware. QMI is a great little company, but I know they're (almost) as overworked as we are at Atari. So, timetables for this are in doubt. Also, BB/ST's tree-structured message base is not my cup of tea. And then there's BBS Express ST. Keith Ledbetter is doing a nice job on this one. The message base and file areas work well. But there's been no hint from ICD about the prospects for a multi-line function. I'd like to hear of one, because I like the program, which has a nice extra for us -- the script language for it would make development of an online order entry system fairly simple. It would be a boon to users to allow them to order spare parts online. One last thing -- we're committed to running the whole thing on Atari equipment. Partly because of budget (total cost for system hardware out-of-pocket to date has been $0), and mainly because it's a good excuse to push the envelope of what can be done on the system. The makers of BBS programs would love to see us use their program, because it's a great promotion for them. So, I tell them to give me what I need! Maybe some day it will work. Just to not irritate anyone, I'm aware of the PD program STadel, but this one gave new users fits when I tried it at home. And there's CBBS from Oasis, which just came in and hasn't been tried yet. No word on multi-line functions here either. Any helpful advice from netland? -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEILHARRIS CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion
lupin3@UCSCB.UCSC.EDU (-=/ Larry Hastings /=-) (12/31/87)
+-In article <918@atari.UUCP>, neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) wrote:- +---------- | |(lines deleted) | FoReM 2.0 supports Fnet, so if we wanted to go to approach #3 we could do | it. But with the number of novice callers we get, I'm a bit leery of using | FoReM. Any comments to the contrary, netlanders? |(lines deleted) | BB/ST is very powerful, and Steven Grimm is working on the multi-line | facility. But we're still waiting on some hardware. QMI is a great little | company, but I know they're (almost) as overworked as we are at Atari. So, | timetables for this are in doubt. Also, BB/ST's tree-structured message | base is not my cup of tea. | +---------- And you're considering using BB/ST? Okay, it isn't as downright abrasive as FoReM ST, but I have never found it particularly intuitive, easy to use, or really fun. True, the sysop functions are neat (from what I hear...), and I suppose it's pretty powerful, but it's still got that true tree-structure message thingie, and it's just not _keen_. <<= opinions, guys... Of course, if you loan one of these developers an Abaq for a while, they might be more than happy to write up a multi-user message base that reads messages off a LAN... I know Steve would... :') -- .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . | _ _ _ _ |_| _ _ |_ -__ _ _ ARPA: lupin3@ucscb.ucsc.EDU L_ (_\( ( (_/ | |(_\_\ (_ || )(_)_\ UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!lupin3 larry / hastings _/ BITNET: lupin3@ucscb@ucscc.BITNET ^v^v^vBoy, I'm glad I don't live in an alternate universe!^v^v^v Disclaimer: All original text above was pointless & random, & it makes me proud. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. -- .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . | _ _ _ _ |_| _ _ |_ -__ _ _ ARPA: lupin3@ucscb.ucsc.EDU L_ (_\( ( (_/ | |(_\_\ (_ || )(_)_\ UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!ucscb!lupin3 larry / hastings _/ BITNET: lupin3@ucscb@ucscc.BITNET ^v^v^vBoy, I'm glad I don't live in an alternate universe!^v^v^v Disclaimer: All original text above was pointless & random, & it makes me proud. . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . ..
singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) (12/31/87)
Kindy inform me as to what is so "abrasive" about FoReM ST. Perhaps you find it so because you are unfamilar with it. Please send me your name and address so I can send you a users manual. Matt Singer
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (12/31/87)
In article <918@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: > >Just to not irritate anyone, I'm aware of the PD program STadel, but this >one gave new users fits when I tried it at home. > >Any helpful advice from netland? Several thoughts. First, STadel seems to be a bit more user-friendly now than it did 6 months ago. You might want to log into the STadel development system sometime and check it out again (612-377-9239). It would be nice to have at Atari, since STadel has a UUCP option now (several systems are linked directly into my Unix box at this time.) In fact, if anyone is interested, they can mail to the author of STadel at orc@pell.UUCP or ...ihnp4!meccts!stag!pell!orc. There is even the possibility of having comp.sys.atari.st redirected into message rooms (not sure if that feature is released yet). And, since STadel has room sharing between systems, that would solve your other problem with technical questions getting lost. One other thought. Stadel is best used as a message base system. You can log on with minimal fuss, quickly find the section you are interested in, read what is appropriate, leave a message, and log off a lot faster than any other BBS that I have ever used. That is important for those of us who worry about our phone bills when calling the Atari BBS (and also keeps the lines available). If you could reserve say three of your systems for downloading using whatever your favorite download type BBS is (how about running Collie under PC-Ditto :-) ...that is my favorite for downloading and maintaining as a Sysop) and two systems for questions and answers using STadel, you would probably improve the usefulness of the Atari BBS considerably. -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP P.S. When I first saw STadel, I too went "Yech...what the ?@#? is this?"
neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) (01/05/88)
In article <296@stag.UUCP>, trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) writes: > In article <918@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: > Several thoughts. First, STadel seems to be a bit more user-friendly > now than it did 6 months ago. You might want to log into the STadel > development system sometime and check it out again (612-377-9239). Will do, but I have logged in to several STadel boards and still haven't changed my opinion. Maybe the reason you find them more friendly now is that you've had 6 months of experience! > One other thought. Stadel is best used as a message base system. You > can log on with minimal fuss, quickly find the section you are > interested in, read what is appropriate, leave a message, and log off > a lot faster than any other BBS that I have ever used. OK, I'll buy that part. But you can't leave messages "TO" a specific person. > If you could reserve say three of your systems for downloading Based on the current usage, I'd have to set up 4 for downloading and 1 for messaging. But, I am philosophically opposed to that -- I think it would reduce message traffic. Some people call mainly to download but also read the messages. And messages are my primary reason for having the board. Hmmm... maybe I should go with STadel... it would cut down the downloaders :-) -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEILHARRIS CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (01/05/88)
In article <928@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: > >OK, I'll buy that part. But you can't leave messages "TO" a specific person. > Yes, you can...you just go to the mail 'room' (.g mail) and enter a message. The first thing it asks is who the message is too. STadel has added 'floors' to the general room concept as well...rooms and floors are just hierarchical ways to break up the structure of the message base. -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP
neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) (01/07/88)
In article <302@stag.UUCP>, trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) writes: > In article <928@atari.UUCP> neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) writes: > > > >OK, I'll buy that part. But you can't leave messages "TO" a specific person. > > > Yes, you can...you just go to the mail 'room' (.g mail) and enter a message. We're talking semantics here. I know you can leave private "email" in STadel, but you can't leave a public "message" addressed to someone. -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEILHARRIS CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion
stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (01/09/88)
[Good morning, Mr. Line Eater...]
Neil,
With STadel, you may not be able to leave a public message directed
to a person, but if it's public, why not simply put the recipient's
name on the first line, and if need be, send them Email saying that
there is a public message in such-and-such a room. Also, those people
most likely to get public messages (such as yourself) could have a
room (message base) for that sole purpose. With STadel, you can have
64 "rooms" on a system. You could have 5 different boards with a number
of netted rooms as well as having a purpose to each separate board;
say, one for graphics, one for MIDI, etc. If you wanted to net with
Atari Canada, you could even net some rooms with them. Messages in
the rooms can be netted automatically or you can give the general public
netting privs.
I, personally, don't think STadel lacks in the up/download department
either, but it is "different". Rooms can be made directory rooms. You
can download a file right after you read comments about it if you want
without having to leave the message base or going into a "file" section.
You can send files from system to system through netting. You can make
directory rooms that are either upload or download only. The only thing
I find at all lacking is the description area. People tend not to describe
their files well.
As for new users on STadel, there are some tricks, but once people are
used to it, it is fast and easy, and best of all, NOT redundant! There
are help files and tutorials available. Most of the STadel users I know
(including myself) caught on very quickly. BBSers who are serious tend
to be fairly clever about such things. A simple explanation that the BBS
is like a large building where you wander from room to room reading new
messages and leaving messages usually helps, as does explaining that
everything you receive from the BBS is done with some kind of a Read,
and everything you give to the BBS is done with some kind of an Enter.
In case some of you hadn't figured out, yes, I run one of these beasties.
If you want some more information or would like a little tutorial about
using STadel (which also comes in Amiga and MS-DOS flavored Citadels, btw),
drop me a message. It may take a day or two to get back to you, but I will
indeed get back to you. There are a bunch of addresses where I can be
reached down below...
Neil, I have had trouble finding a path to you from Bitnet, I'm afraid,
but I haven't given up hope yet! *grin*
Holly...
Bitnet: IHLS400@INDYCMS
Arpanet: ihls400%indycms.bitnet@{your favorite gateway here}
UUCP: ...!rutgers!indycms.bitnet!ihls400
GEnie: HOLLYSTOWE
BBS: (317) 842-7564 (300/1200/2400/9600USR)
Internet: stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu
USnail: 799 W. Michigan St. ET1023, Indianapolis, IN 46202
ICBM: Just aim at the Army Finance Center at Fort Benjamin Harrison
"Lake Wobegon - Gateway to Central Minnesota"
[................. (energy bits for the line eater).................]stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (01/09/88)
[nibbles and bits] I'd like to apologize for the following bit of well-intentioned humor... (but I won't... *grin*) /* Written 8:40 am Dec 31, 1987 by singer@ll-xn in silver:comp.sys.atari.st >Kindy [sic] inform me as to what is so "abrasive" about FoReM ST. It's author from the sound of it... Personally, I find it redundant and inefficient as a user (and co-sysop on a couple of FoReM ST boards), but that's only a personal opinion. I'll live. >Perhaps you find it so because you are unfamilar with it. Nope... I'm plenty familiar with it. It still annoys me a lot of the time, just faster than it used to annoy me when I wasn't familiar with it. >Please send me your name and address so I can send you a users [sic] manual. Actually, I have a friend of mine's (Paul Followell), but then, the note wasn't directed to me in the first place. The original author's name is Neil Harris. He works for Atari, and you can find his address at the bottom of every note he posts to the newsgroup. >Matt Singer Holly Lee Stowe "Whip me! Beat me! Take away my charge cards!" - SpaceCamp [and bits and bits]
john@viper.Lynx.MN.Org (John Stanley) (01/10/88)
In article <928@atari> neil@atari writes: > >> One other thought. Stadel is best used as a message base system. You >> can log on with minimal fuss, quickly find the section you are >> interested in, read what is appropriate, leave a message, and log off >> a lot faster than any other BBS that I have ever used. > >OK, I'll buy that part. But you can't leave messages "TO" a specific person. > Wrong Neil. Citadel has ALLWAYS (since I worked on Citadel over 5 years ago anyway) supported sending personal messages. I've always suspected that you dropped STadel because you didn't really understand large portions of how the system works and this just reinforces that impression. The system isn't all that hard to understand, it just breaks some of the basic assumptions that many people make about how a bbs system is "suppost" to work. If you really want to give it a fair trial, you have to start by dropping a lot of assumptions... unfortunately, it's easier for many people to reject something they don't understand rather than taking the time to question their personal biases and just-maybe discover a better way of doing things.... --- John Stanley (john@viper.UUCP) Software Consultant - DynaSoft Systems UUCP: ...{amdahl,ihnp4,rutgers}!meccts!viper!john
singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) (01/11/88)
In article <11400006@silver>, stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: > [nibbles and bits] > > I'd like to apologize for the following bit of well-intentioned humor... > (but I won't... *grin*) > > /* Written 8:40 am Dec 31, 1987 by singer@ll-xn in silver:comp.sys.atari.st > > >Kindy [sic] inform me as to what is so "abrasive" about FoReM ST. > > It's author from the sound of it... Personally, I find it redundant and > inefficient as a user (and co-sysop on a couple of FoReM ST boards), but > that's only a personal opinion. I'll live. > > >Perhaps you find it so because you are unfamilar with it. > > Nope... I'm plenty familiar with it. It still annoys me a lot of the time, > just faster than it used to annoy me when I wasn't familiar with it. > > >Please send me your name and address so I can send you a users [sic] manual. > > Actually, I have a friend of mine's (Paul Followell), but then, the note > wasn't directed to me in the first place. The original author's name is > Neil Harris. He works for Atari, and you can find his address at the bottom > of every note he posts to the newsgroup. > > >Matt Singer > > Holly Lee Stowe > > "Whip me! Beat me! Take away my charge cards!" - SpaceCamp > > [and bits and bits] Please.... Help me make FoReM less annoying and more "friendly", by SPECIFICALLY stating what you find so "ANNOYING" and "REDUNDANT"... Or how about "What is better and why it is". Thank you for you time and assistance... Matt Singer
neil@atari.UUCP (Neil Harris) (01/12/88)
In article <11400005@silver>, stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu writes: > With STadel, you may not be able to leave a public message directed > to a person, but if it's public, why not simply put the recipient's > name on the first line This is a kludge. > and if need be, send them Email saying that > there is a public message in such-and-such a room. Even more of a kludge. Do people really do this? I didn't think so. > In case some of you hadn't figured out, yes, I run one of these beasties. <grin> Stadel seems do inspire the same kind of fanatical loyalty among its sysops as does Zoomracks -- and I don't particularly love either one. > If you want some more information or would like a little tutorial about > using STadel (which also comes in Amiga and MS-DOS flavored Citadels, btw), > drop me a message. I am very familiar with STadel. I tried it out on my own board, and have used many other active STadel boards. Yes, there seems to be message traffic. But you're trying to sell someone (i.e. me) who is not a prospect. > Neil, I have had trouble finding a path to you from Bitnet, I'm afraid, > but I haven't given up hope yet! *grin* I have. Email does not seem to make the transition from Usenet to any of the other nets. The mailer daemons keep reminding me of that. > ICBM: Just aim at the Army Finance Center at Fort Benjamin Harrison ^^^ Nice touch, that! -- --->Neil Harris, Director of Marketing Communications, Atari Corporation UUCP: ...{hoptoad, lll-lcc, pyramid, imagen, sun}!atari!neil GEnie: NHARRIS/ WELL: neil / BIX: neilharris / Delphi: NEILHARRIS CIS: 70007,1135 / Atari BBS 408-745-5308 / Usually the OFFICIAL Atari opinion