sqrkl@csvax.liv.ac.uk (03/04/88)
In article <12045@brl-adm.ARPA>, JEMCCABE%MTUS5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: > Oh come on now... This group is NOT for computer bashing. > If you are so insecure about your machine that you need to post > such crap, go write it on a bathroom wall or tattoo it on your > ass!!! And while you're at it, try to come up with some valid > arguments! OK, you asked for it ... 1) The Atari ST's OS has been ported from an IBM PC and has several features removed (no fonts for example) and has had several (hundred ?) bugs introduced (40-folder bug, can't rename a folder, can't rename a disk...). 2) The ST has the same sound chip as a Sinclair Spectrum Plus 2 - a prime example of Atari ST cost-cutting. 3) 99% of all available software is either a very poor imitation of Macintosh software (First Word Plus, Publishing Partner, Fleet Street Editor etc.) or just a poorly-written arcade game... 4) Virtually all the compilers I've seen (and I've seen plenty of them !) for the ST have been quite disgraceful. They either have numerous bugs, have a user-hostile interface (such as a cryptic command line) or are extremely slow. This just shows that ST software companies are in the market to make a quick buck off people foolish enough to buy an ST in the first place. 5) The official ST hard disk is appalling. A friend of mine was so disgruntled that he ripped out the Atari mechanism and replaced it with a faster hard disk mechanism. 6) As mentioned in comp.sys.atari.st, Atari have been caught red-handed shipping STs with faulty disk drives that don't sense the write-protect notch on a disk correctly...typical of such a cost-cutting company (price without the power - or safe disk drives !) > Calling the ST a "hunk of dross" is uncalled for. The Amiga > has nicer features than the ST, of course, but that doesn't > mean that anything less than an Amiga 3000 is trash. Using your own > logic, I could say that your Amiga and the Mac II and the > Vax and IBM mainframe machines are all "dross" because a better > computer exists. Grow up, and take a course or two in logic > before you waste our time with childish bullshit. I never said that the Amiga/VAX/Mac etc. were the BEST computers in the world - just that they're BETTER than the ST !! My philosophy is that if the machine is fast, has a good OS and a good (high level) language then it is GOOD. If it doesn't have these attributes then it is BAD (aka DROSS). From your rabid defensive posting, I can only assume that you are an Atari victim..oops, sorry...owner. This is why I've pointed out what a mistake Atari owners make when they part hard-earned money for what, in effect, is a very large door wedge. Richard K. Lloyd, *************************************************** Computer Science Dept., * JANET : SQRKL@UK.AC.LIV.CSVAX * Liverpool University, * UUCP : {backbone}!mcvax!ukc!mupsy!liv-cs!SQRKL * Merseyside, England, * ARPA : SQRKL%csvax.liv.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk * Great (?) Britain. *************************************************** "I have VERY strong opinions which are nothing whatsoever to do with the University of Liverpool, so blame ME if I bitch about useless IBM PC clones, even more redundant IBM mainframes and the terrible Atari ST..."
ccs011@vega.ucdavis.edu (0058;0000012202;300;9999;94;ccs) (03/06/88)
>> such crap, go write it on a bathroom wall or tattoo it on your >OK, you asked for it ... > I didn't ask for it. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but WHY would you post this to comp.sys.atari.st? Are you trying to stir up some excitement, or what? If you guys want to rant and rave about stupid things like this, why not keep it to yourself? Mail is good for that, you know. Bill Frazer
rosenkra@Alliant.COM (Bill Rosenkranz) (03/07/88)
In article <463@csvax.liv.ac.uk> sqrkl@csvax.liv.ac.uk writes: >In article <12045@brl-adm.ARPA>, JEMCCABE%MTUS5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: > >> Oh come on now... This group is NOT for computer bashing. [] > >OK, you asked for it ... > >1) The Atari ST's OS has been ported from an IBM PC and has several features > removed (no fonts for example) and has had several (hundred ?) bugs > introduced (40-folder bug, can't rename a folder, can't rename a disk...). > >2) The ST has the same sound chip as a Sinclair Spectrum Plus 2 - a prime > example of Atari ST cost-cutting. > >3) 99% of all available software is either a very poor imitation of Macintosh [] > >4) Virtually all the compilers I've seen (and I've seen plenty of them !) for > the ST have been quite disgraceful. [] > >5) The official ST hard disk is appalling. [] > >6) As mentioned in comp.sys.atari.st, Atari have been caught red-handed > shipping STs with faulty disk drives that don't sense the write-protect > notch on a disk correctly...typical of such a cost-cutting company > (price without the power - or safe disk drives !) > >> Calling the ST a "hunk of dross" is uncalled for. The Amiga >> has nicer features than the ST, ....... [] > >I never said that the Amiga/VAX/Mac etc. were the BEST computers in the world >just that they're BETTER than the ST !! ...... [] > >Richard K. Lloyd, all these points are valid and true.... having been a developer on the ST for almost 2 years, and having battled to understand this sucker, and having invested both huge amounts of time and $$$ (3 1040s, 2 HD, 5-6 monitors.....) i have to agree that the ST is not the "ideal" development machine. the only thing that keeps me going is the fact that there ad 500k+ machines out there. otherwise i would surely switch my efforts to a more "favorable" host/manufacturer. i hate reading flames Re: how bad ST is vs how good Amiga is (and visa versa). that's not REALLY the issue. what is important is to whip atari into shape ("i'm mad as hell and am NOT going to take it anymore..."). atari SEEMS to be going after mac II/sun/etc... market but is woefully ill equipped to do so. their org chart is so lean that if Cindy C. is out, the entire dev support structure STOPS TO FUNCTION! i have had tremendous problems with SH204 drives (atari sent me 2 in the past 2 weeks, both bad, and i spent $150 in fed exp charges to get them, and now they are COMPLETELY OUT OF STOCK!!! i was left to contact a local rep to see if he could get one from a local store...that's not MY idea of support, especially for developers). as a businessman, i have to make a decision: keep on my current masochistic path or switch to a friendlier environment. it's hard to throw away time and $$$ investments (especially time...) but i'm really starting to look at that as a serious option. atari (or at least most of the people i deal with) means well. but their current posture really is one of a mass market distributor. they will never sell anything to fortune 1000 firms in the $5-10k range w/o support and they desperately need to have support, starting with developers (you know, the ones who make the software that sells the machines). boycotts are not a solution, either. i, for one, am writing to L. Tramiel with my feelings, as an interested participant in atari success/failure. i suggest we all do this, not as a plea or threat, but rather as a source of information and market sentiment. afterall, the people on this net are more likely to recommend/purchase a $5-10k workstation than the average consumer/hobbyist. if atari sells >20 copies of the ABAQ or whatever to nonprofessionals, i will indeed be suprised. if you want to further the cause, don't waste time flaming amiga. it is a fine system for what it is, just as STs are fine for what they do. Remember: atari came out with the ST as a low-cost yet powerful machine. you generally get what you pay for. the issue is really how serious are the Tramiels and major stockholders and can they be influenced to react to a few hundred (thousand?) letters from netland. The Tramiels are wealthy; they can always go out and start/buy another company and will always have a market eager to buy their wares. it is our problem to make sure we get what we want. that's how a "free" market works. -bill
leigh@byuvax.bitnet (03/08/88)
It is time that the Tramiel family leaves Atari and goes off to save another floundering company in need... And let some *real*business* men put things in order... Chad
stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu (holly) (03/09/88)
[much deleted...] I think Jim's point is that most of us want to see useful postings in comp.sys.atari.st about how to make better use of the equipment that we own rather than someone's opinion that we should have purchased some other equipment regardless of the faults. Every system has bugs. I have yet to see the perfect operating system or perfect hardware. Holly -- UUCP: rutgers!indycms.bitnet!ihls400 GEnie: HS Bitnet: IHLS400@INDYCMS Arpanet: ihls400%indycms.bitnet@(wherever you like) Internet: stowe@silver.bacs.indiana.edu The secret to happiness is how well you cope with Plan B.
mrapple@uop.edu (Nick Sayer) (03/10/88)
In article <1346@alliant.Alliant.COM>, rosenkra@Alliant.COM (Bill Rosenkranz) writes: > In article <463@csvax.liv.ac.uk> sqrkl@csvax.liv.ac.uk writes: > >In article <12045@brl-adm.ARPA>, JEMCCABE%MTUS5.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU writes: > > > >> Oh come on now... This group is NOT for computer bashing. > [] I agree. Please keep this out of comp.lang.pascal. Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nick Sayer | Packet Radio: N6QQQ @ WA6RDH | CMS: SYSOP@STOKTON%STOCKTON uucp: ...!sdcsvax!ucbvax!ucdavis!uop!mrapple | Fido: 161/31 Disclaimer: You didn't REALLY believe that, did you? cat flames > /dev/null
dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) (03/10/88)
:>1) The Atari ST's OS has been ported from an IBM PC and has several features :> removed (no fonts for example) and has had several (hundred ?) bugs :> introduced (40-folder bug, can't rename a folder, can't rename a disk...). :> :Wrong. Porting is modifying existing code to work on a different computer. :DRI wrote TOS/GEM/GEMDOS entirely from scratch. Yah, well they obviously didn't think about it much. They borrowed a lot (en concept, en theory) from the PC OS. For instance, the disk format. >Yet, in the same machine, we have a midi interface. Those who are interested >in good sounding music can add a synthesizer and persue a professional career. >If this is cost cutting, how come no other machine comes with one built-in? Oh please, isn't this a bit old? Any idiot knows that all you need for midi is a serial port, a simple serial->midi adaptor (extremely cheap), and good software. If I really wanted to, I could hook one up to my low-speed digital logic probe (6502 @ 2.4Mhz, can transmit and receive on two 76.8KBaud lines simultaniously at full speed without interruption. --slow-- MIDI is *simple*). >>4) Virtually all the compilers I've seen (and I've seen plenty of them !) for >> the ST have been quite disgraceful. They either have numerous bugs, have >> a user-hostile interface (such as a cryptic command line) or are extremely >> slow. This just shows that ST software companies are in the market to make >> a quick buck off people foolish enough to buy an ST in the first place. >> > >Yawn. OSS Pascal, MWC Ver. 3.0, Laser C? What goes for "good" these days? As he said ... disgraceful. Still better than the compilers I see on the IBM PC (in C at least...) > >>6) As mentioned in comp.sys.atari.st, Atari have been caught red-handed >> shipping STs with faulty disk drives that don't sense the write-protect >> notch on a disk correctly...typical of such a cost-cutting company >> (price without the power - or safe disk drives !) >> > >Commodore is perfect by comparison, Hmmm? One local mall store, Games 'N >Gadgets, had over 50% of it's Amiga 500's come back after Christmas. The >problem? Dead unit, green screen with spots. Sound familiar? No electronics >supplier is perfect. Even IBM has problems. I would agree that the original message casts the wrong light on Atari. I was under the imprerssion that they attempted to correct it as soon as they found out about it. But I'll tell you something Atari, in its infinite wisdom DID do. Early on (in the first year), they attempted to discredit the Amiga with outright lies... on PURPOSE. They used disgraceful methods and frankly, I think that blew it for them. It also backfired in a big way. >The preceding was written with nobody's consent. Ditto. >> sqrkl@csvax.liv.ac.uk > S. Chilcote > src@xanth.UUCP -Matt Dillon dillon@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ..!ihnp4!ucbvax!dillon
c60c-6bh@web1d.berkeley.edu (Hurley (Ahhz)) (03/10/88)
-----------Line Eater Quiche -----------------------
Let's just face it .....
the Amiga is 'The Right Thing'
the Atari isn't
unless you own one, in which case, everyman learns
to love his executioner given time.
This is done with my consent, my opinion, my arogance 8^)
why be so serious ?? why not just wait till the desktop Cray comes out,
and then discuss which is superior.
In the final analysis ... the world still turns.
In other words it doesn't matter !
good bye good life. <zzapp>
+----- Disclaimer : ------------------------------------------+
I would never hurt one of God's creatures ... EXCEPT FOR FUN!tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (03/11/88)
In article <8803100259.AA03230@cory.Berkeley.EDU> dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon) writes: <some deleted stuff> >>Yet, in the same machine, we have a midi interface. Those who are interested >>in good sounding music can add a synthesizer and persue a professional career. >>If this is cost cutting, how come no other machine comes with one built-in? > > Oh please, isn't this a bit old? Any idiot knows that all you need >for midi is a serial port, a simple serial->midi adaptor (extremely cheap), >and good software. If I really wanted to, I could hook one up to my >low-speed digital logic probe (6502 @ 2.4Mhz, can transmit and receive on >two 76.8KBaud lines simultaniously at full speed without interruption. >--slow-- MIDI is *simple*). Well, that's was just the point wasn't it? On the ST you don't have to do all this! And besides, since you're talking about re-hashing "old news": ISN'T THAT what you're doing? < Lot's of deleted OLD news > I don't mean to perpetuate this seemingly endless Atari/Commodore War. As a matter of fact, I don't think there are many people in this news-group who would. But why do Amiga owners insist on cross-posting their "insulting" (for lack of a better word) messages? I don't mind hearing a bit of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism every now and then, but that's definitely not the sort that has been arriving lately. If you can only repeat criticisms that have been "fought over" in previous 'scrimmages', why don't you keep them local to your news-group? I'm sure your fellow readers will love you for it! Please don't bother responding to this "flame" with yet another. I plan to just skip this message subject in the future. Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
c60c-6bh@web1d.berkeley.edu (Hurley (Ahhz)) (03/11/88)
Sorry, I had not realized this would be posted to the atari group. As you can tell my previous message was mostly just emotional clap trap, which was the reason I wrote it. I meant it to be just another meaningless addition to an allready tired, and disgusting subject. And I really don't like the Atari, and I really do like the Amiga, but that's just my personal opinion, and it shouldn't bother or interfere with anyone-elses life. ----------------- And I still wouldn't hurt one of God's cretures ---- -------------------Except for FUN, of course..-----------------------
Usenet_News_Of_221/162@isishq.UUCP (Usenet News Of 221/162) (03/11/88)
From: dillon@CORY.BERKELEY.EDU (Matt Dillon)
Date: 10 Mar 88 02:59:17 GMT
Message-ID: <8803100259.AA03230@cory.Berkeley.EDU>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st,comp.sys.amiga
:>1) The Atari ST's OS has been ported from an IBM PC and has several features
:> removed (no fonts for example) and has had several (hundred ?) bugs
:> introduced (40-folder bug, can't rename a folder, can't rename a disk...).
:>
:Wrong. Porting is modifying existing code to work on a different computer.
:DRI wrote TOS/GEM/GEMDOS entirely from scratch.
Yah, well they obviously didn't think about it much. They borrowed
a lot (en concept, en theory) from the PC OS. For instance, the disk format.
>Yet, in the same machine, we have a midi interface. Those who are interested
>in good sounding music can add a synthesizer and persue a professional career.
>If this is cost cutting, how come no other machine comes with one built-in?
Oh please, isn't this a bit old? Any idiot knows that all you need
for midi is a serial port, a simple serial->midi adaptor (extremely cheap),
and good software. If I really wanted to, I could hook one up to my
low-speed digital logic probe (6502 @ 2.4Mhz, can transmit and receive on
two 76.8KBaud lines simultaniously at full speed without interruption.
--slow-- MIDI is *simple*).
>>4) Virtually all the compilers I've seen (and I've seen plenty of them !) for
>> the ST have been quite disgraceful. They either have numerous bugs, have
>> a user-hostile interface (such as a cryptic command line) or are extremely
>> slow. This just shows that ST software companies are in the market to make
>> a quick buck off people foolish enough to buy an ST in the first place.
>>
>
>Yawn. OSS Pascal, MWC Ver. 3.0, Laser C? What goes for "good" these days?
As he said ... disgraceful. Still better than the compilers I
see on the IBM PC (in C at least...)
>
>>6) As mentioned in comp.sys.atari.st, Atari have been caught red-handed
>> shipping STs with faulty disk drives that don't sense the write-protect
>> notch on a disk correctly...typical of such a cost-cutting compan
--- ConfMail V3.31
* Origin: The Waterloo Window: watmath!isis!171![userid] (1:221/171)
SEEN-BY: 221/0 162 171 171 pes@ux63.bath.ac.uk (Smee) (03/11/88)
In article <7569@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-6bh@web1d.berkeley.edu.UUCP (Hurley (Ahhz)) writes: > [Bunch of non-info deleted] On the other hand, ST owners are nicer people. (Subjective judgement, based on informal counts of the number of nasty things said by apparent Amiga owners in comp.sys.atari.st, as compared to the number of nasty things said by apparent ST owners in comp.sys.amiga.) :-) Cheers, Paul
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (03/15/88)
In article <144leigh@byuvax.bitnet> leigh@byuvax.bitnet writes: >It is time that the Tramiel family leaves Atari and goes off to save >another floundering company in need... And let some *real*business* men >put things in order... Hmmm... sounds like an excellent idea. By the way, isn't Atari a real corporation, or do the Mr. T's own all the stock? Don't the share-holders have any say, save the two obvious options: 1) sell the stock for which they paid $12 for $4 (or current price) 2) hold on to it and watch it dwindle away to nothing Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, and you couldn't get me to buy Atari stock for any price (unless I get enough to fire the T's and S.H.). -- David Beckemeyer | "To understand ranch lingo all yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | have to do is to know in advance what 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | the other feller means an' then pay UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | no attention to what he says"
jsp@sp7040.UUCP (John Peters) (03/15/88)
In article <7569@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, c60c-6bh@web1d.berkeley.edu (Hurley (Ahhz)) writes: > > Let's just face it ..... > > the Amiga is 'The Right Thing' > > the Atari isn't > > unless you own one, in which case, everyman learns > to love his executioner given time. > I can't help but wonder about this guy. The last message seems to have been nothing but a mess to say that the Amiga is better than the Atari. So much bandwidth across the country for so little. Having used both (however it's the Atari I own), I have found them to be more alike than different. They both have bugs, they both have a 68000 and they both have an operating system that is a piece of **** (capitalized, underlined, highlighted, boldened, etc.). I am hoping for more with Minix. However, would somebody please strangle this p*ss ant and get him off the net. For an institution that did so much with UNIX, I find this routine dump by BOZO the clown to be offensive. Maybe a little moderation by somebody there would be a good idea. -- Johnnie -- My opinions are my own. However, I only get this attitude when some DORK thinks he knows it all.
c60c-6bh@web1d.berkeley.edu (Hurley (Ahhz)) (03/20/88)
/.. l f ../
The only reason I am posting this to both groups is to put this
to an end. That and the fact that I can't seem to reach the previous
poster through email.
For those who don't wish to look up old, boring articles. I wrote
a rather stupid letter, saying that the amiga is great, and that the
atari isn't. That was about it. Read on McDuff.
This here is from the 'Dork' who 'knows it all.'
I just wanted to explain to you a couple of things. First off,
I really didn't mean that letter to get out on the net, and
most definately not to the Atari people. I was, and for that
matter still am new to the net, and basically my posting was
a mistake.. ok ? I hit the wrong key, everybody makes a mistake.
I found out about my mistake the next day when I had read what
I wrote on the net. I immediately posted a retraction, which was
not coherent, but managed to keep most people off my back.
Second, it was a joke. I admit, maybe not a funny one, but
still a joke. (I wasn't going to post it because I had forgot to
insert lot's of smiley faces, and thought that most people would
take it seriously even with the 8^) ) The letter, basically said
nothing, which was what I think most of the previous letters, and
current letters on the subject say. In short in was a sarcastic
poke. (mind you a failed poke, but a poke none the less)
So, I am not a 'Dork,' or a 'know it all.' Simply a human who
made a mistake. I am sure we all make those ?
As for the entire question over which is 'better,' I will say
that I like my Amiga better, just as you like your Atari better.
I still say that given time everyman learns to love his executioner,
and that goes in both cases doesn't it. Each machine has it's flaws
but still we can, and do overlook them.
The 'Dork'
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