deep@ole.UUCP (Pradeep Chilka) (03/12/88)
Why oh why does Atari charge an arm and a leg for their hard disk drives ~600-800 when I can get a 20MB hard disk for an AT for less than $300? I like the ST but would I shell out that much for a hard disk (which incidentally I think is a must)? No way. I almost feel like now considering the AT which I can now pick up for < $1K, almost the same price as a 1040ST. grumble, grumble, Pradeep (I had to tell someone...) uw-beaver!tikal!ole!deep
weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Weaver) (03/12/88)
In article <409@ole.UUCP> deep@ole.UUCP (Pradeep Chilka) writes: >Why oh why does Atari charge an arm and a leg for their hard >disk drives ~600-800 when I can get a 20MB hard disk for an AT >for less than $300? True, Atari in its collective infinite wisdom charges way too much for its drives. However, there _are_ alternatives. Take it from one who found out! You can be saved from Atari's collective greed by finding your favorite 20Mb (or 30Mb or higher) hard drive mechanism, some available for under $250 retail via mail order or even less used, and purchasing the Berkeley Microsystems BMS-100 ASCI to SCSI converter board. This, along with a SCSI to ST506 converter board, allows you to attach industry standard hard drive mechanisms to your ST. I think the BMS-100 board is around $125 by itself, or $250 with the SCSI to ST506 board. I mention that these are available separately because there are cheaper SCSI-to-ST506 converter boards. (<$100 from what I have heard.) The point is, if you can find a decently priced mechanism, from $200 to $300, you can come up with a hard drive for less than what Atari charges. Of course, you also need a power supply and a smidgen of technological prowess (or just plain bravado :-) and you can have a cheapo hard drive. The hitch here is finding a reasonable drive. You can hunt around: if there are computer repair places near where you are, they may be able to point you to a good source. I bought the boards and hooked them to a 20Mb MiniScribe drive, and I have had no problems with it. Disclaimer: I don't work or have any financial affiliation with BMS, other than being a satisfied customer. ('Course, I won't refuse any compensation offered as a result of my... oh, who am I kidding anyway?) -- Andrew Weaver weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu OSU College of Business soon: weaver@osu-pisa.UUCP "What's the watermelon do?" "I'll tell you later." -- from Buckaroo Banzai
edrury@percival.UUCP (Ed Drury) (03/13/88)
In article <409@ole.UUCP> deep@ole.UUCP (Pradeep Chilka) writes: >Why oh why does Atari charge an arm and a leg for their hard >disk drives ~600-800 when I can get a 20MB hard disk for an AT >for less than $300? I like the ST but would I shell out that >much for a hard disk (which incidentally I think is a must)? No way. >I almost feel like now considering the AT which I can now pick up >for < $1K, almost the same price as a 1040ST. > >grumble, grumble, > >Pradeep >(I had to tell someone...) > >uw-beaver!tikal!ole!deep Can you get a 20 meg *stand alone* HD for your AT at <$300 including case, power supply, fan, contoller board and cable? That is a good deal of the price difference I would think. Sure , if you needed just the mechanism you could get a 40 to 60 meg 28 MS miniscribe. You can get an interface to use such drives with your ST, but I think you would pay a couple hundred just for the face and still need a controller power supply and a case. Many have gone this way and gotten 40-60 fast hard disks for about the same as an SH204. But then you need software (which is also included in the SH204). The Atari HD situation really isn't any worse than the Amiga one....... **************************************************************************** * ..!{ucbvax,ihnp4,seismo}!tektronix!reed!percival!edrury * * * **************************************************************************** *You may have heard that a dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. * * -- Alfred Kahn * ****************************************************************************
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (03/15/88)
I'm not trying to pick on anyone here, but lets look at the numbers shall we? In article <8185@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> (Andrew Weaver) writes: ->In article <409@ole.UUCP> deep@ole.UUCP (Pradeep Chilka) writes: ->>Why oh why does Atari charge an arm and a leg for their hard ->>disk drives ~600-800 when I can get a 20MB hard disk for an AT ->>for less than $300? Ok, our target is $600. What we need is a drive, controller, SCSI->ST506 interface, powersupply, Box and cables. -> ...However, there _are_ alternatives. Take it from ->one who found out! You can be saved from Atari's collective greed by ->finding your favorite 20Mb (or 30Mb or higher) hard drive mechanism, some ->available for under $250 retail via mail order or even less used, and ->purchasing the Berkeley Microsystems BMS-100 ASCI to SCSI converter ->board. This, along with a SCSI to ST506 converter board, allows you ->to attach industry standard hard drive mechanisms to your ST. I think ->the BMS-100 board is around $125 by itself, or $250 with the SCSI to ->ST506 board. I mention that these are available separately because ->there are cheaper SCSI-to-ST506 converter boards. (<$100 from what I ->have heard.) Actually finding a SCSI->ST506 less than $100 is tough, SASI->ST506 it's possible but you don't want SASI you want SCSI. -> The point is, if you can find a decently priced mechanism, from ->$200 to $300, you can come up with a hard drive for less than what Atari ->charges. Of course, you also need a power supply and a smidgen of ->technological prowess (or just plain bravado :-) and you can have a cheapo ->hard drive. But wait a minute, let's see what we have 20Meg Drive $250 BMS Controller $250 (all PC drives are ST506) Power Supply $25 Case $25 (or buy a PC clone case with supply for $40) Cable/Connectors $15 (you crimp them together) ============ Total $565. Holy Shit Batman I'm saving a measly $35! No, the answer to the original question which was "Why are PC drives so much cheaper" is that all you get when you get a PC drive is the mechanism. You don't get a power supply and a box and a special controller. Atari drive suppliers have to supply a complete system. A better comparison is with Macintosh drives, which also have to supply a case and supply etc. --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
ritchie@hpldola.HP.COM (Dave Ritchie) (03/28/88)
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >But wait a minute, let's see what we have > 20Meg Drive $250 > BMS Controller $250 (all PC drives are ST506) > Power Supply $25 > Case $25 (or buy a PC clone case with supply for $40) > Cable/Connectors $15 (you crimp them together) > ============ > Total $565. Holy Shit Batman I'm saving a measly $35! > >No, the answer to the original question which was "Why are PC drives so much >cheaper" is that all you get when you get a PC drive is the mechanism. You >don't get a power supply and a box and a special controller. Atari drive >suppliers have to supply a complete system. A better comparison is with >Macintosh drives, which also have to supply a case and supply etc. > The prices for PC cases/supply are probably a bit low... more like $40 for a case and $50- 80 for a PC compatible supply (re JDR microdevices). The real difference is that 1) PC owners have most likely purchased a power supply that is sufficently large to power a drive, and 2) that PC-bus to ST-506 (with no intermediate SASI step, I suspect) are *CHEAP* (c. $60 judging by the difference in prices of raw drives vs. drives + PC controllers). The miracle of mass production! A friend of mine in Boulder lashed together a drive (5MByte) using a ST-506 that he picked up a hamfest for $20 (using a XEBEC 1410 HD controller), but he knew what he was doing. In many cases, it wouldn't pay for Joe User to roll his own... The Atari drive is too cheap by comparison (How much is your time worth?) Incidently, he is thinking about writing up this for one of the magazines.... any interest? (He has a host adapter that can be built for minimal $$$, and has written the software. He wants to clean it all up and draw schematics, etc.). Dave
cyliax@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Ingo Cyliax) (04/01/88)
In article <11830001@hpldola.HP.COM> ritchie@hpldola.HP.COM (Dave Ritchie) writes: > > cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >>But wait a minute, let's see what we have >> 20Meg Drive $250 >> BMS Controller $250 (all PC drives are ST506) >> Power Supply $25 >> Case $25 (or buy a PC clone case with supply for $40) >> Cable/Connectors $15 (you crimp them together) >> ============ >> Total $565. Holy Shit Batman I'm saving a measly $35! >> >>No, the answer to the original question which was "Why are PC drives so much >>cheaper" is that all you get when you get a PC drive is the mechanism. You >>don't get a power supply and a box and a special controller. Atari drive >>suppliers have to supply a complete system. A better comparison is with >>Macintosh drives, which also have to supply a case and supply etc. >> > > A friend of mine in Boulder lashed together a drive (5MByte) >using a ST-506 that he picked up a hamfest for $20 (using a XEBEC 1410 >HD controller), but he knew what he was doing. In many cases, it wouldn't >pay for Joe User to roll his own... The Atari drive is too cheap by I have done it two different ways. The first harddisk system I build went like this: home build DMA-->SASI interface free (build from scratch parts) 10Mb disk $125 (about two years ago) Shugart 1610-3 (XEBEC 1410 compat) $75 Power supply $39 Case $15 Software was written by me free Total: ~254 The second one went like this: BMS interface $125 (includes software) Adaptec Scsi controller $80 (Same as BMS, but cheaper) 10Mb disk $125 Power Supply $39 Case $15 Total: ~384 The difference is that I wrote the software and build the interface for about $130. Now I like my interface, it's faster and could support more than one Harddisk controller,but it's not standard(i.e. the registers are all different). On the other hand, BMS's software is alot nicer than mine. I guess my point is that I spend alot more than $130 worth of my time to build the interface and write the software to make it work, but I learned alot about the Atari in doing so. So there is always a trade-off on how much experience is worth to you. I think a good solution is to buy the BMS interface and software ($125) and get the other stuff elsewhere and put it together yourself. It only takes about one evening to assemble all the parts. The BMS interface has pretty good instructions, and they have very nice/helpful people when you call them about questions. If you don't want to muck with it though, get a complete drive. -- /* Ingo Cyliax * * ...!ihnp4!pur-ee!cyliax ECN, Electrical Engineering Bldg. * * cyliax@ecn.purdue.edu Purdue University, W. Lafayette,IN 47907 * * ing@cc.purdue.edu (317) 494-3473 / (317) 463-1747 after 5pm */
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (04/03/88)
Not to get too involved in this because we sell the BMS board, but... I agree for that for many users, just buying an off-the-shelf drive is by far better than "roll-your-own" solutions. The two best reasons for the "roll-your-own" approach are: 1) You already have an old ST-506 drive around doing nothing (maybe from that old CP/M machine or whatever) 2) You have a high-speed/high-capacity problem. The boards, case, power supply, etc. are a fixed cost. The high capacity and/or high-speed drives are often not a linear increase in price. There is some threshold where a big/fast drive is significantly cheaper when you do-it-yourself instaed of buying an off-the-shelf drive. A less significant reason is future expansion. The BMS board set can run two drives, and it's always easy to add a second drive. All it costs is the price of a bare drive. If you don't fit in either of the above categories, then perhaps a rool-your-own drive is not for you. -- David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!"
ritchie@hpldola.HP.COM (Dave Ritchie) (04/03/88)
cyliax@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Ingo Cyliax) writes: > >I think a good solution is to buy the BMS interface and software ($125) >and get the other stuff elsewhere and put it together yourself. It only >takes about one evening to assemble all the parts. The BMS interface has >pretty good instructions, and they have very nice/helpful people when >you call them about questions. If you don't want to muck with it though, >get a complete drive. > I agree with what you say, but would probably not go the route of building my own drive due to the lack of resale value of a homebrew project. I am sure that in some cases (such as having many of the parts on hand, or those with extremely large amounts of free time) this reduction of cost is attractive (as it was with my friend), but for others this may not make sense. Dave Ritchie