rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) (02/24/88)
You know, after reading Matt Singer bash Atari's unprofessionalism,
I'm beginning to wonder: How many Atari software developers out here in
netland have *Major* gripes with how Atari supports the ST?
I'm not a professional, nothing fancy, just a "Joe User" who thinks my
1040 ST is one of the best buys out there (just like the 800, when I
bought it many many years ago)...And I'm getting a little worried. Are
all you guys gonna give up on Atari, and I'll be stuck with a dead machine?
Is anyone in any decent PR/administrative position at Atari LISTENING
to us? Whaddabout Jack tramiel, the man who nobody ever gets to see in
person? DOES HE EVEN CARE???
(Okay, I might be going overboard, but I'm interested)
--R.J.
B-\
C'mon, if you've got something to say, let's get it out into the open...
______________________________________________________________________________
Bitnet: rjung@sal124.usc.edu "Who needs an Amiga?" = == =
= == =
Power WithOUT the Price = == =
===== == =====
Just because it's 8-bits doesn't make it obsolete. ==== == ==== Thomas_E_Zerucha@cup.portal.com (02/26/88)
Flame on: I do have problems with Atari's support, or lack thereof. They aren't really advertising, and although they are at capacity, and a big hit in Europe, no one is going to hear about MY software unless I make a big effort myself to promote it. They recently did a MIDI ad and mentioned several companies and products - what about basic stuff? I have found a wonderful place to get my ST and software from, who know their stuff and have a good selection - and they can't sell the Megas because of Atari's policy. Atari was almost the computer for the rest of the rest of us - but they are becoming Mac like in their stuffiness. Flame off: Atari is better in some ways - I could as an independent get the devkit for $300 - they don't require a financial sheet before you can get something from them. In terms of SOME technical support, they are better than most. The ST is a very nice machine to work on because they did a lot of good design up front. I don't have to coax the ST to get something to work, it is fairly simple to do most things. Flame on: Are they going to really support the ST, or drop it in favor of the Abaq and the 68030 Unix Box. The Mac has been upgraded, but still maintains compatibility - will the ST? Since the ST is dependent on third party software - as are most computers Atari should do something more to help us market the software - if in no other way, at least to advertise the capability of some of the more major packages. Most people don't realize the ST can multitask (with RTX), has professional WP programs and data bases, runs software from other computers, and does many other things. But I wouldn't know it if I didn't do all the work to find these things - except for a few major packages. Most people can name more games than utility programs for the ST. If someone ported hypercard and improved it on the ST, Atari would probabaly say, "that's nice, but we are too busy with other things to bother". They make the hardware, but we make it useful.
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (02/27/88)
In a recent article, the question was raised as to whether Atari will drop the ST/Mega line in favor of the '030 or Abaq. The answer is simple: NO WAY!!! Engineering currently has in development or planned several variations on the ST, with features to address different needs, as well as general enhancements. And great care is being taken to maintain maximum compatibility with the current ST/Mega series. These products are all in addition to the "basic ST" you all seem to know and for the most part love. The '030 and Abaq-type products address a different market segment than the ST and Mega, and will peacefully coexist with probably very little overlap. And yes, we are planning paths to interconnect the whole range for whatever purposes you might dream up! So rest assured, not only is the ST architecture going to be around for a long time, it will be complemented by future product offerings. One of the big strengths of the ST is the software available for it, and it would be very silly to walk away from such a base. We may be a lot of things in the eyes of the users, but we're not that insensitive. Jack Tramiel's open philosophy is, paraphrased, "power for the masses", and the '030 and Abaq will not be at 'mass pricing' until several critical component costs are literally decimated. So keep those ST applications rolling! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (02/27/88)
In article <318@nunki.usc.edu> rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) writes: > You know, after reading Matt Singer bash Atari's unprofessionalism, >I'm beginning to wonder: How many Atari software developers out here in >netland have *Major* gripes with how Atari supports the ST? > > I'm not a professional, nothing fancy, just a "Joe User" who thinks my >1040 ST is one of the best buys out there (just like the 800, when I >bought it many many years ago)...And I'm getting a little worried. Are >all you guys gonna give up on Atari, and I'll be stuck with a dead machine? >Is anyone in any decent PR/administrative position at Atari LISTENING >to us? Whaddabout Jack tramiel, the man who nobody ever gets to see in >person? DOES HE EVEN CARE??? > > (Okay, I might be going overboard, but I'm interested) > > --R.J. > B-\ > > >C'mon, if you've got something to say, let's get it out into the open... Do you really want to know? (y'all that is, not just Robert) Are you ready for the reality of it? You may not like the answer. Developers do have gripes with Atari. Some major gripes and some not so major gripes. But Atari has to push really hard to get us to speak up. Becuase everytime we flame Atari, we are potentialy hurting ourselves. First, we get on Atari's bad side. And when you're on their "black list" things get tough, believe me, I've been there (I may be heading there again). It takes some guts (and maybe stupidity) to speak up against Atari. Also when the Atari market is already not so good, it doesn't help to have the major developers flaming; the developers' own business is affected. That's why most developers just ride along, and keep to themselves about their gripes. That's also why the ST magazines (so-called journalists) never flame Atari. For one thing, some (like Antic) sell the damned products! They're sure as hell not going to flame their own wares! In the end, you are absolutly correct Robert, the regular "Joe-user" is the one that pays. We all took a risk; we hoped Atari would make it worthwhile. I've got 3-years and all my money in this thing; if the ST dies, all I've got to show for it is a lot of experience and a few new friends. And who at Atari is listening? That's a good question. But even better: what would they do about it anyway? To really discuss this, we need a new newsgroup: comp.sys.atari.flame I'm too much of a whimp to say much more (this week). But if things continue the way they've been going... I've got plenty to say (If anybody still wants to hear it). -- David Beckemeyer | "To understand ranch lingo all yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | have to do is to know in advance what 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | the other feller means an' then pay UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | no attention to what he says"
wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (02/28/88)
In article <996@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: > [some deleted stuff] >eyes of the users, but we're not that insensitive. Jack Tramiel's open >philosophy is, paraphrased, "power for the masses", and the '030 and Abaq >will not be at 'mass pricing' until several critical component costs are >literally decimated. [more deleted stuff] I guess the previous slogan "power WITHOUT the price" had to be quietly layed to rest after the introduction of the Mega's. :-) Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (02/28/88)
In article <153@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: > >Do you really want to know? (y'all that is, not just Robert) >Are you ready for the reality of it? You may not like the answer. > [some deleted stuff] >To really discuss this, we need a new newsgroup: comp.sys.atari.flame [more deleted stuff] Dave, just get yourself under the Federal Witness Protection Program and then you can spill your guts without having to worry about 'retaliation' from Atari Corp. :-) I think a "gripe-group" for the ST is a good idea, but only if we can be sure that Atari reads those gripes AND takes them to heart. I have a few gripes myself and would certainly be able to contribute (to a small extent) to this new group. But then, we might as well forget this idea: I don't think Atari (the higher management that is) cares too much about us Joe User's as long as they can make a good profit WITHOUT the "hassle" of responding to customer complaints! I'm not sayig that there isn't ANYONE at Atari that listens (Neil and Allen are good examples and are excluded from this "flame"), but I'm not at all sure as to how many of our concerns make it to the 'decision makers' in the company. Enough said. I certainly don't want ST sales to suffer just because I spoke my mind. After all, the machine is a very nice (and successful - at least in Europe :-) one. Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) (02/28/88)
In article <153@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >Becuase everytime we flame Atari, we are potentialy hurting ourselves. >First, we get on Atari's bad side. And when you're on their "black list" >things get tough, believe me, I've been there (I may be heading there again). Are you saying CENSORSHIP? That's terrible! >It takes some guts (and maybe stupidity) to speak up against Atari. Also >when the Atari market is already not so good, it doesn't help to have the >major developers flaming; the developers' own business is affected. That's >why most developers just ride along, and keep to themselves about their >gripes. That's also why the ST magazines (so-called journalists) never >flame Atari. For one thing, some (like Antic) sell the damned products! >They're sure as hell not going to flame their own wares! That's certainly true. However, there must be a line drawn between just plain malicious flaming, and sincere wishes for improvements. The truth hurts, and I wonder why Atari can't(?) take constructive criticism. >And who at Atari is listening? That's a good question. But even better: >what would they do about it anyway? > >To really discuss this, we need a new newsgroup: comp.sys.atari.flame No, what we ALL need is what should have been there all along: A *DIRECT* pipeline to Atari's top management. What I'd imagine could be very simple: How about a secretary and a mailing address? The secretary's SOLE task is to read the mail, and scan the nets/services, for Atari-oriented criticisms and comments. Then, this ssecretary would make a report to top management (Jack?), who'd (hopefully) take heed and do SOMEthing about the whole thing. We know Jack Tramiel can make things move when he really wants to; Putting together a prototype 68000 machine in six months is an amazing task. Why aren't we seeing such dynamic energies and deep concern for states now? My God, even a comic-book company listens to its readers. Apple must have one truckload of a consumer-relations department. What does Atari have? I'm not saying that a lot of money must be invested or anything; Just give us SOMEwhere to air our views, with assurances that they will be heard. I dunno, maybe I'm just naieve about how big business works. But I've always believed that, if you're running a PUBLIC service, you better listen to your public -- Without them, you're nothing. I help run a local Atari BBS, for instance, and we practically ENCOURAGE our users to fire away and flame at what they don't like. Maybe not all of the arguments are valid, but we DO listen. Why not Atari? Okay, enough negative flaming (boy I feel depressed again)...I want to restate that I am one of the BIGGEST Atari fans around (grin). My idea of fun is making Apple users turn green when my ST runs rings around their hardware. All of us out here want to see Atari thrive, but to do so, SOMEBODY must listen to us, and fix what's wrong. And if it must hurt, to say that TOS has bugs, or that we don't like the "announce now, release next decade" policy, or the keyboard of the ST isn't perfect -- Then that's what the public wants, and something better be done. Is anyone listening? --R.J. B-) P.S. When Jack Tramiel first bought atari from Warner, and turned everything around almost overnight, we were all so happy, and had a sense that things were being done. Is it me, or has the momentum slowed? ______________________________________________________________________________ Bitnet: rjung@castor.usc.edu "Who needs an Amiga?" = == = = == = Power WithOUT the Price = == = ===== == ===== Just because it's 8-bits doesn't make it obsolete. ==== == ====
ccs011@vega.ucdavis.edu (0058;0000014407;300;9999;94;ccs) (02/29/88)
>>And who at Atari is listening? That's a good question. But even better: >>what would they do about it anyway? >> >>To really discuss this, we need a new newsgroup: comp.sys.atari.flame > > No, what we ALL need is what should have been there all along: A >*DIRECT* pipeline to Atari's top management. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HA! HA! HA! HA!
weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Andrew Weaver) (02/29/88)
In article <1260@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> ccs011@vega.ucdavis.edu.UUCP (Bill Frazer) writes: >>>And who at Atari is listening? That's a good question. But even better: >>>what would they do about it anyway? >>> >>>To really discuss this, we need a new newsgroup: comp.sys.atari.flame >> >> No, what we ALL need is what should have been there all along: A >>*DIRECT* pipeline to Atari's top management. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > HA! HA! HA! HA! Ha ha ha is right. Should have been there all along is a relative thing. It would be nice for us, the consumers. But it would be a royal pain in the a*s for the upper management at Atari. I can just see a lot of people harping at Tramiel and Co. in the early days, when Tramiel had dumped a large amount of funds into what seemed to be a financial black hole to everyone else - a company millions of dollars in debt, not to mention the company itself split into three, non-cooperating spheres of influence: home computers, home gaming systems and coin-op systems. The argument about any PUBLIC service having things like direct feeds to upper management is correct, unfortunately Atari Corp., while a public corporation stock-ownership-wise, is still largely owned and oper- ated by one family. Granted, Atari has pulled off some major public relations disasters ("Moses PromiseLAN"? I mean, in the immortal words of Ms. RIvers, "CAN WE TALK?") but they have delivered the company from bankruptcy to a state of at least semi-coherency. This is not meant to curb the current flame war, no, my ST lies broken and near death in my bedroom back in the dorm. I am not precisely sure what is wrong with it, but it looks as if a motherboard swap (if the old $95 deal is still on) is the only financially feasible way of 'repairing' it. C'est la vie. Tell you what though. If Atari wants to get involved in "other markets" as Mr. Dodd implies with the '030 box and the Abaq transputer, they better get a real attitude about customer support, and fast. Or there possibly will be no more Atari to flame after they dump a couple hundred million in a transputer project. Think I will just buy a new drive for my 800 and forget the ST (half :-) -- Andrew Weaver, OSU College of Business weaver@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu "OSU burns up and everyone dies." -scifi soon: weaver@osu-pisa.UUCP "What's the watermelon for?" "I'll tell you later." -- from Buckaroo Banzai
jmc@ptsfa.UUCP (Jerry Carlin) (03/01/88)
In article <345@nunki.usc.edu> rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) writes: >In article <153@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >>And who at Atari is listening? That's a good question. But even better: >>what would they do about it anyway? > No, what we ALL need is what should have been there all along: A >*DIRECT* pipeline to Atari's top management. I wrote a letter to Leonard Tramiel. The letter apparenly went to /dev/null - I never got a reply (and I mentioned that I was a registered developer). And now I find that there is a blacklist and I may be on it. I hope that the Atari people on the net somehow manage to make the Tramiels understand that blacklisting developers is not a good way of promoting a business. Its not a good tenet of war to make your allies into enemies. (and Jack believes business is war?) -- Jerry Carlin (415) 823-2441 {ihnp4,lll-crg,ames,qantel,pyramid}!ptsfa!jmc soon: {ihnp4,lll-crg,ames,qantel,pyramid}!pacbell!ptsfa!jmc To dream the impossible dream. To fight the unbeatable foe.
farren@gethen.UUCP (Michael J. Farren) (03/05/88)
In article <345@nunki.usc.edu> rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) writes: > We know Jack Tramiel can make things move when he really wants to; Putting >together a prototype 68000 machine in six months is an amazing task. Yes, it would have been amazing, had it actually happened. When Tramiel took over Atari, though, there were already people working on a 68000 machine, and had been for some time. Those people were, essentially, the only ones that Tramiel kept when he purged the company. While the final ST design might have had significant Tramiel influence (it looks it - it's cheap enough), it's pretty clear that the groundwork had been laid before he ever came on the scene. -- Michael J. Farren | "INVESTIGATE your point of view, don't just {ucbvax, uunet, hoptoad}! | dogmatize it! Reflect on it and re-evaluate unisoft!gethen!farren | it. You may want to change your mind someday." gethen!farren@lll-winken.llnl.gov ----- Tom Reingold, from alt.flame
poole@forty2.UUCP (Simon Poole) (03/08/88)
In article <996@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: ......... >Engineering currently has in development or planned several variations on >the ST, with features to address different needs, as well as general >enhancements. And great care is being taken to maintain maximum compatibility >with the current ST/Mega series. These products are all in addition to the >"basic ST" you all seem to know and for the most part love. > Hmmm, the last such "enhancement" was the infamous blitter (which still has to arrive anywhere in mass quantities). As I've stated numerous times before, I don't doubt the qualities of Atari engineering, but Atari still has to show us that they can get an actual product up and going. And as always there is the question of software support, will Atari mangement make an official statement about a bug fixed GEMDOS version as an example? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- UUCP: ...mcvax!cernvax!forty2!poole Simon Poole BITNET: K538915@CZHRZU1A ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (03/10/88)
In article <188@forty2.UUCP>, poole@forty2.UUCP (Simon Poole) writes: > .........I don't doubt the qualities of Atari engineering, but Atari still > has to show us that they can get an actual product up and going. And as > always there is the question of software support, will Atari mangement > make an official statement about a bug fixed GEMDOS version as an example? > We have recently polled Atari enthusiasts on BIX, Compuserve and GEnie regarding input on fixes and enhancements for the forthcoming TOS. I guarantee we won't please everyone, but we'll try. The responses received have been summarized to about 12 pages. At an average of about 2 lines each, it runs to around 200 comments. We are very pleased with this level of response, as it shows a good degree of cooperation from the user base. In addition, we have solicited, and received, input from all of our subsidiaries. We will publish a list of features on all services as soon as we are confident of the final content of this next release, together with a summary of the major changes NOT made, with reasons. In addition, we recently posted to "misc.jobs.offered" on this net, showing our intent to hire support/test people directly into Development. These positions were also posted to the other public services. We are committed to improving support, not just for the ST/Mega line but also for the forthcoming 68030/UNIX line. I am sure you all understand that getting support people with the right mentality to provide pro-active support, and training them in the peculiar architecture and quirks of the Atari product line, is not an overnight magical happening. But happen it will. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
leigh@byuvax.bitnet (03/11/88)
Now is the time for someone with good management to come in and buy Atari so that the Tramiel family can go off and save another company in trouble... Chad
mpsimon@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (M. Patrick Simon) (03/15/88)
*FLAME ON* In article <148leigh@byuvax.bitnet> leigh@byuvax.bitnet writes: >Now is the time for someone with good management to come in and buy Atari >so that the Tramiel family can go off and save another company in trouble... > >Chad This is an absolutely inane statement to make. If you are not satisfied with your Atari computer, you should sell it and buy a different one, or else learn to live with it. How do you expect users to have any hope of Atari listening to us if we go on attacking them at the highest levels? The "why haven't you fixed this bug yet (these zillion bugs yet!)?" approach to applying pressure to Atari might have some chance of success, the "I don't like the management/ownership and your mother dresses you funny" approach is sure to bring out the "business is war, and you are obviously on the wrong side" attitude in any company. *FLAME OFF* --Patrick Simon mpsimon@phoenix.princeton.edu 3/14/88 disclaimer: my very own opinion. Ain't nobody responsible.
rjung@castor.usc.edu (Robert Jung) (03/15/88)
In article <2064@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> mpsimon@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (M. Patrick Simon) writes: > If you have problems >with your Atari computer, you should sell it and buy a different one, or >else learn to live with it. Right. If you don't like the machine, don't use it. I *love* mine. > How do you expect users to have any hope of >Atari listening to us if we go on attacking them at the highest levels? >The "why haven't you fixed this bug yet (these zillion bugs yet!)?" approach >to applying pressure to Atari might have some chance of success, the "I don't >like the management/ownership and your mother dresses you funny" approach >is sure to bring out the "business is war, and you are obviously on the >wrong side" attitude in any company. (Taking the opportunity to write for a change, and not get swamped about hardware tricks:) To tell the truth, I've never really found a bug in the ST that drove me nuts (Heck, about the worst bug I've run across is in fsel(), where you change the drive to B: and you get "[ OK ]" on the pathname line...No big deal)...However, management-flaming is another thing. I don't believe in mindlessly flaming just for the sake of flaming. But when something goes wrong, SOMEbody has to speak out -- Why not us, the users? My only real gripes right now with Atari is an overall lack of credibility; Not between me and the company, but between Atari and the rest of the industry. I want to see Atari/the ST/the Mega/the Abaq/the 8-bits survive, and when I see something that's "stupid" (to me), such as taking x months to release a piece of hardware, I get a little depressed... But random flaming ("Oh, Atari will never get anywhere, the NAME is bad!") is out... --R.J. B-) >disclaimer: my very own opinion. Ain't nobody responsible. Bully for you! ______________________________________________________________________________ Bitnet: rjung@castor.usc.edu "Who needs an Amiga?" = == = = == = Power WithOUT the Price = == = ===== == ===== Just because it's 8-bits doesn't make it obsolete. ==== == ====
med@druhi.ATT.COM (DrapalME) (03/16/88)
***** Severe flames ahead, beware ***** In article <2064@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, mpsimon@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (M. Patrick Simon) writes: > The "why haven't you fixed this bug yet (these zillion bugs yet!)?" approach > to applying pressure to Atari might have some chance of success, the "I don't It sure does seem to me like the 40-folder bug, the fsel bug(s), the (*enter your favorite bug here*) bugs have been around long enough to prove *BEYOND A DOUBT* that this approach does not work with the current management at Atari. I used to think that a few of the lower level folks at Atari were somewhat responsible for this (I know, Alan, I'm not saying release the fixes before they are tested, BUT, you shouldn't taunt us with such things if you don't really mean it ;-)), but now, after having an ST for 2+ years, I'm convinced that the management of Atari, for better or worse, is the MAIN reason that a number of these bugs haven't been fixed. As long as they can sell the machine, AT A PROFIT, without being forced by their users to fix these bugs, they will continue to do so (I think this is the first law of business: Screw the consumer until they scream...). > like the management/ownership and your mother dresses you funny" approach > is sure to bring out the "business is war, and you are obviously on the > wrong side" attitude in any company. After reading the above discussion, it should be clear that I really don't like this approach, but I'm willing to consider it since the other approaches to date have not worked. I think that until Jack and his brothers figure out that "we've had enough of this sh*t and aren't going to pay for it any more", he will not fix ANYTHING. And if "your mother dresses you funny" abuse gets them started in *any* direction, at least its movement... Needless to say, for me, he can keep his ABAQ (*If he is ever able to deliver them, RE: ATARI PC*). Myron Drapal ihnp4!druhi!med P.S. If I thought I could unload this stuff for anywhere near what I had in it...
bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (BRUCE SZABLAK) (03/17/88)
It's clear to me anyway, that Atari's management has lost faith in the ST line's ability to compete in the long term with the IBM clone market. That would explain their reluctance to spend the money to finish the job they started: provide documentation, software, firmware, and hardware inhancements. My biggest beef has been with the documentation that I recall being promised about 2 years ago. If I were the publisher of Abacus books (the only commercially available technical reference for the ST in English - even if it is of uneven quality), I would have sued Atari for overhanging the market; I didn't buy the Abacus books at because of Atari's "promise" to publish technical references. By the way, before someone points out that Compute! publishes technical references I'll just say that I looked at them and found them to be lacking in the extreme (I'm being generous in my praise).
dclemans@mntgfx.mentor.com (Dave Clemans) (03/19/88)
Well, since everybody else is getting in to this... My sources tell me that it isn't that Atari isn't trying to fix existing bugs; they really are. It's just that the philosphy of Tramiel's sons (not Jack Tramiel; he apparently has little to do with the day to day running of Atari) is that exactly one small product development and support team is needed regardless of how many products are being developed or are out on the market. Thus as the number of "products" goes, the interval between product releases and updates of current products gets longer and longer. One anecdote: I know someone who visited Atari headquarters a while ago (more than a year) to talk about some joint product development and marketing. He was told that he wouldn't be able to talk to Landon Dyer and Allen Pratt on this trip because they were on a tight schedule trying to get the Atari PC BIOS done. dgc
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (03/22/88)
In article <71@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (BRUCE SZABLAK) writes: >It's clear to me anyway, that Atari's management has lost faith in the >ST line's ability to compete in the long term with the IBM clone market. >That would explain their reluctance to spend the money to finish the job >they started: provide documentation, software, firmware, and hardware >inhancements. I would take this one step farther and say that it is clear to me, that Atari's management has no faith in Atari Corp.'s ability to compete in the long term with the entire US computer market, especially the business market. They can't compete now with even the real IBM PS-2 market, leave alone the low-end clones. IBM has a better VAR program, is more cost effective (from a business stand-point), and you get the name with it! You would have to be a stubborn fool (like me) to use the Atari name on a business product, when you could have IBM at the same cost (and far less in the long run). If somebody wants an Atari-based multiuser system, we'll sell it. But when they look at a our IBM PS-2, or Compaq 386 based system for about the same price, guess which one they chose? I'm not saying that the PS-2 is a better machine (I still hate that damned intel chip)... but you gotta sell'em what they want to buy (and if it's easier, why not?). -- David Beckemeyer | "To understand ranch lingo all yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | have to do is to know in advance what 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | the other feller means an' then pay UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | no attention to what he says"
govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) (03/24/88)
> In article <71@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (BRUCE SZABLAK) writes: > >It's clear to me anyway, that Atari's management has lost faith in the > >ST line's ability to compete in the long term with the IBM clone market. > >That would explain their reluctance to spend the money to finish the job > >they started: provide documentation, software, firmware, and hardware > >inhancements. > > I would take this one step farther and say that it is clear to me, that > Atari's management has no faith in Atari Corp.'s ability to compete in > the long term with the entire US computer market, especially the business > market. > At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. The grafitti is on the wall. Time to dump the boat anchor while you can still get a decent price for it. Don't count on Two-Tongue Jack to ever support the ST in the US. All he'll ever provide is crumbs to keep the peasants quiet.
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (03/26/88)
In article <54@avsd.UUCP>, govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: > > At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said > that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, > the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. > > The grafitti is on the wall. Time to dump the boat anchor while you > can still get a decent price for it. Don't count on Two-Tongue Jack > to ever support the ST in the US. All he'll ever provide is crumbs to > keep the peasants quiet. I was at Hannover last week, and would contest the above most strongly. Jack Tramiel's public statement at the Press Conference was almost entirely in regard to DRAM issues. And he made a very strong point, which received immediate applause, that "Atari will not increase prices on account of the inflated DRAM costs. If that means we only make $55M this year instead of $57M, so be it." I paraphrase considerably, but nonetheless his message was clear. In addition we are making several moves within Atari Sunnyvale to improve support for developers, as anyone who has been following my postings should be able to discern. The effects of these moves will be seen in the next few months. And we are certainly not talking about dropping the ST/Mega, or even letting it stagnate. There is ongoing development effort in several areas. My personal opinion is that Mr. Govett is way out-of-line in his interpretation of Mr. ?. Tramiel's remarks (where "?" can only be Sam or Jack, as the other two were not in Hannover). Maybe he would be so kind as to state the exact words used, and the originator, as I don't recall any Atari executive using the words quoted. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (03/29/88)
In article <1024@atari.UUCP>, good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: > In article <54@avsd.UUCP>, govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: [ A lot of mouthing off about alleged statements made by one of the Tramiels about not supporting the US market any more....] > I was at Hannover last week, and would contest the above most strongly. Enough about the flim-flammery and ravings of some lunatic, Roy. Let's get down to the important question: Did you guys exhibit the 68030 box? If so, tell us about it? Will it be out by June (which everyone knows is October on *our* calendars :-). How much memory? What kind of disk connection? Bus, or just SCSI/AHDI port? Inquiring minds (and perhaps pocketbooks) want to know! Wes Peters -- /\ - "Against Stupidity, - {backbones}! /\/\ . /\ - The Gods Themselves - utah-cs!utah-gr! / \/ \/\/ \ - Contend in Vain." - uplherc!sp7040! / U i n T e c h \ - Schiller - obie!wes
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (03/29/88)
In article <54@avsd.UUCP> govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: >At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said >that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, >the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. > >The grafitti is on the wall. Time to dump the boat anchor while you >can still get a decent price for it. Don't count on Two-Tongue Jack >to ever support the ST in the US. All he'll ever provide is crumbs to >keep the peasants quiet. I'm glad somebody finally said it. Howdy neighbor. Did you fall for it too? We should'a listened to everybody that said we were fools. Now Jack and his boys are laughin' & drinkin' to their health with my salary! My friends who program "real" computers really gave me a hard time when I started with Atari and the ST. Now everything they warned me about seems to be coming true. You see, I used to be a real programmer. No really. No foolin'. Now on my resume I'll have to say "well see I was on an extended vacation for those three years. No I never programmed an Atari before". How long will the T's keep finding suckers? -- David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!"
singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) (03/29/88)
In article <196@bdt.UUCP>, david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: > In article <54@avsd.UUCP> govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: > >At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said > >that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, > >the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. > > > >The grafitti is on the wall. Time to dump the boat anchor while you > >can still get a decent price for it. Don't count on Two-Tongue Jack > >to ever support the ST in the US. All he'll ever provide is crumbs to > >keep the peasants quiet. > > I'm glad somebody finally said it. Howdy neighbor. Did you fall for it > too? We should'a listened to everybody that said we were fools. Now > Jack and his boys are laughin' & drinkin' to their health with my salary! > > My friends who program "real" computers really gave me a hard time when I > started with Atari and the ST. Now everything they warned me about seems > to be coming true. You see, I used to be a real programmer. No really. > No foolin'. Now on my resume I'll have to say "well see I was on an > extended vacation for those three years. No I never programmed an Atari > before". > > How long will the T's keep finding suckers? > > -- > David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh > Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' > 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em > UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!" This is quite interesting. When I moved to Boston from Washington DC about a year ago, the head hunters I had the "pleasure" of dealing with specifically told me to leave anything about being an Atari developer off my resume. Yeah, I fell for it. $2500 for a development system that when it got here didn't come with what they said it did. (SS/DD drives instead of DS/DD and it wasn't until I was going to go to a lawyer 7 months later that I finally got my hard drive)... I've been fooled twice. I bought an Atari 800 after being convinced it would be better than the Apple 2. It may have been better, but it just did not have the support for "real" applications and half the items in the Atari catalog at the time of purchase never came out. I bought the ST developers system (pre ST release) on the hope that it would be the next C-64 (market size / cheapie machine that had some "real" application support). God was I wrong.... There's an old saying: Fool me once. Shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me... I won't get fooled again. (should be a song title...) If after all this Atari thinks they can get "real" developers for a 030 machine, based on their past history of support, they have been going to the wrong fortune tellers. Yep, I'm writing for a Unix based system. But it sure as hell won't be on an Atari! Matthew R. Singer
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (03/31/88)
In article <942@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: > If after all this Atari thinks they can get "real" developers for > a 030 machine, based on their past history of support, they have > been going to the wrong fortune tellers. > Yep, I'm writing for a Unix based system. But it sure as hell won't > be on an Atari! > Matthew R. Singer If you are writing for a UNIX System V based system, and adhere to the standard interfaces, then you can certainly offer your product on Atari's UNIX series, if you want the additional market. If you really want the easiest way to distribute your efforts, then by adhering to the Motorola/UniSoft Binary Compatibility Standard you [in theory (:-)] need only get it working on one 68020/30 system and then the binaries can be used on any complying system, including Atari's. Atari is committed to industry standards for the UNIX line, and already has significant interest from several world-recognized develpment organizations. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
wheels@mks.UUCP (Gerry Wheeler) (03/31/88)
In article <196@bdt.UUCP>, david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: > My friends who program "real" computers really gave me a hard time when I > started with Atari and the ST. Now everything they warned me about seems > to be coming true. You see, I used to be a real programmer. No really. > No foolin'. Now on my resume I'll have to say "well see I was on an > extended vacation for those three years. No I never programmed an Atari > before". Well, you know, the one thing that very few people seem to be knocking is the actual ST hardware. It has occasional problems (chip sockets, etc.), but is generally pretty good. Nice video. A keyboard layout I like. Portable when it has to be. So, maybe all those who agree should also agree on which OS we are going to use on that hardware instead of the current one. In my mind, it's a tossup between OS9 and MINIX. Idris is out there, but I think it's too pricey. Any others? Of course, we'll need to help each other. There are already support groups for OS9 (BIX, CI$, etc.), and I suppose the MINIX Usenet group will grow once the ST version is available. Shall we all agree to meet over there? By the way, anybody know the release date for MINIX ST? -- Gerry Wheeler Phone: (519)884-2251 Mortice Kern Systems Inc. UUCP: uunet!watmath!mks!wheels 35 King St. North BIX: join mks Waterloo, Ontario N2J 2W9 CompuServe: 73260,1043
greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) (04/01/88)
In article <1024@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: >In article <54@avsd.UUCP>, govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: >> >> At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said >> that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, >> the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. >> >> The grafitti is on the wall. Time to dump the boat anchor while you >> can still get a decent price for it. Don't count on Two-Tongue Jack >> to ever support the ST in the US. All he'll ever provide is crumbs to >> keep the peasants quiet. > >I was at Hannover last week, and would contest the above most strongly. >Jack Tramiel's public statement at the Press Conference was almost >entirely in regard to DRAM issues. And he made a very strong point, >which received immediate applause, that "Atari will not increase prices >on account of the inflated DRAM costs. If that means we only make $55M >this year instead of $57M, so be it." I paraphrase considerably, but > [....more deleted...] >My personal opinion is that Mr. Govett is way out-of-line in his >interpretation of Mr. ?. Tramiel's remarks (where "?" can only be >Sam or Jack, as the other two were not in Hannover). Maybe he would be >so kind as to state the exact words used, and the originator, as I don't >recall any Atari executive using the words quoted. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Roy J. Good >Product Development, Atari Corporation > Mr. Good, I won't defend Mr. Govett's rather free interpretation of Sam Tramiel's statement, but according to the March 21, 1988 Electronic Engineering Times, on page 14, last paragraph of the article titled "Atari puts Transputer, Unix to work", Sam Tramiel is quoted as saying (at the Hanover, West Germany CeBIT show), "Given the strong demand and opportunity in Europe, we're holding the machines back in the U.S." That, to me, is an unequivocal statement confirming the rumors on the net that ST's are 1) hard to get in the US and 2) not being well supported here. I understand that Atari has a finite maufacturing capacity, and that if it is near 100% utilization then there is no point in promoting more sales, since an increase in demand couldn't be met. On the other hand, is it fair to all your domestic customers and developers to ignore them because the machine is hot somewhere else? To me, this is a very short-sighted and selfish approach, which is destined to hurt Atari in the long run. If and when the currency situation reverses itself (again, as it undoubtedly will), or the next fad machine surfaces in Europe and sales fall off, Atari will find that the market it was "holding back" has long since stopped waiting for crumbs and gone elsewhere to find a supplier worthy of its loyalty. Personally, Mr. Good, I am getting tired of statements like yours that Atari is doing this and that, program x and y are being set up to help developers, etc. Promises, like vaporware, aren't worth the paper they're printed on. We want action, and based on Mr. Tramiel's statement, it seems unlikely we're going to get it. I would be most surprised, and pleased, to be SHOWN otherwise, but please, don't simply tell me it isn't so; your company's president belies your words. Greg Wageman Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: ...!decwrl!spar!snjsn1!blfca1!greg 1601 Technology Drive ARPA: greg@blfca1.com@spar.slb.com San Jose, CA 95110 BIX: gwage (408) 437-5198 CIS: 74016,352 "Nest deeply, and carry a big stack." ------------------ The opinions expressed herein are solely the responsibility of the author.
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (04/03/88)
In article <434@mks.UUCP> wheels@mks.UUCP (Gerry Wheeler) writes: >Well, you know, the one thing that very few people seem to be knocking >is the actual ST hardware. It has occasional problems (chip sockets, >etc.), but is generally pretty good. Nice video. A keyboard layout I >like. Portable when it has to be. > >So, maybe all those who agree should also agree on which OS we are going >to use on that hardware instead of the current one. In my mind, it's a >tossup between OS9 and MINIX. Idris is out there, but I think it's too >pricey. Any others? I don't think any 3rd Party OS is going to make the ST a real machine. If the OS was a standard BSD or Sys V UNIX it would be different, but the ST is *NEVER* going to run either of these operating systems becuase of the hardware. There's no MMU. For a raw 68000 machine, the ST is nice. But without at least a 68010 and an MMU, it needs a good vendor backing it up. And Atari sure ain't that. MINIX, OS/9, and Idris all suffer from a lack of main-stream applications. They're all fine for hackers, but none are widespread enough to be good choices for "joe average" computer buyer. And without vendor support from Atari, TOS isn't going anywhere either. A lot of people that already have an ST will benefit from OS/9, MINIX, etc. but it's not a long term solution to Atari ST market penetration or Atari growth. -- David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!"
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (04/05/88)
In article <189@snjsn1.SJ.ATE.SLB.COM>, greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) writes: > In article <1024@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: > >In article <54@avsd.UUCP>, govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: > >> > >> At the Hannover Fair last week, one of the Flying Tramiel Brothers said > >> that, since iratA gets 60% of its (16-bit ?) revenues from Deutschland, > >> the US market would suck hind tit, not to put too fine a point on it. > >> > >I was at Hannover last week, and would contest the above most strongly. > >.... > >...Maybe he [Mr.Govett] would be so kind as to state the exact words used, > >and the originator, as I don't recall any Atari executive using the words > >quoted. > ..... > Personally, Mr. Good, I am getting tired of statements like yours that > Atari is doing this and that, program x and y are being set up to help > developers, etc. Promises, like vaporware, aren't worth the paper > they're printed on. We want action, and based on Mr. Tramiel's > statement, it seems unlikely we're going to get it. I would be most > surprised, and pleased, to be SHOWN otherwise, but please, don't > simply tell me it isn't so; your company's president belies your > words. First, I did not deny (or at least did not intend to deny) that Atari had been putting priority onto shipments to international markets. I just felt, and still feel, that the phraseology used in the original posting put a very non-business light on what was said, and gave a false impression of the attitude. As for your getting tired of certain statements, then all I can suggest is that you take a short rest while we wrap up the programs that we really are putting into place to provide better service. I'm sure you want action, and I'm sure many others do too. But there's action and action. And what we are doing right now is making sure our plans, and the people we hope to have implenment them, are the right ones. It seems that one of the reasons we need to improve matters is that products have in the past been released prematurely, or so it seems from some of the postings. Given that, it is not prudent to rush out with new procedures before we are confident that we, and you, can work with them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
jsp@sp7040.UUCP (John Peters) (04/05/88)
In article <434@mks.UUCP>, wheels@mks.UUCP (Gerry Wheeler) writes: > > By the way, anybody know the release date for MINIX ST? I asked the same question about 3 months ago. Got an answer from Andrew Tanenbaum himself that it would be out in late spring. Looks like it should be real soon now. The only thing that will disapoint me about MINIX is that I won't be able to use Mark Williams C and the Beckmeyer stuff anymore. -- Johnnie --