wbe@bbn.com (Winston B Edmond) (03/30/88)
In article <679UD140469@NDSUVM1> UD140469@NDSUVM1.BITNET writes: >... About the only thing that lends it [the Infoworld report about an Atari >68030 machine] any credence is the >fact that it wasn't reported in the "Robert X. Cringly" rumor column--it's >apparently a for-real "ghost" (or at least vapor) sighting. Actually, I've seen references to this machine in several other places (newspapers, magazines) before seeing it today in Infoworld. In fact, less than a month ago, I think there was a message on this mailing list from someone at Atari describing the machine. > ...However, if they want to prove their sincerity ... they can ... >... c) show the prototypes ... instead of showing it in Europe and never >letting North America see it until after it's been shipping in Europe. It's my impression that Atari showed the machine first in Europe because their European sales have been good. They expect that demand for the 68030 machine will be greater than their production capacity, so they plan to introduce it in Europe in late 1988, and introduce it in the U.S. in spring of 1989. If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 retail, why shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a similar price range? -WBE
singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) (03/31/88)
In article <22782@bbn.COM>, wbe@bbn.com (Winston B Edmond) writes: > > If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, > multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) > and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or > make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 retail, why > shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a similar price range? > -WBE With regard to the paragraph above... Are you saying that given a SUN and an Atari at the same price and the same features, you would buy the Atari? Do you honestly think Atari has the resources to SUPPORT a Unix box the way Sun can???? I'm not sure anyone in the technical market could get their purchasing departments to buy Atari. And even it they did, I bet they'd hide the nameplate to avoid being laughed out of a job. I've never heard the saying "No one ever got fired for buying Atari"... If Atari does bring out a Unix box, they better make it BINARY compatible with some other make, because no one in their right mind would spend alot porting to it. Matt Singer
wbe@bbn.com (Winston B Edmond) (03/31/88)
MS = Matthew Singer WE = me [WE] If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, [WE] multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) [WE] and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or [WE] make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 [WE] retail, why shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a [WE] similar price range? [MS] With regard to the paragraph above... [MS] [MS] Are you saying that given a SUN and an Atari at the same price and [MS] the same features, you would buy the Atari? No, I was just saying that it was not unreasonable that Atari could build a Unix box intended to sell in that price range. I, too, would pick Sun over Atari if they produced comparable products at comparable prices. But, if Atari produced an '030 box for about 1/2 the cost of a comparable Sun box, because Atari wanted the home market and Sun was selling to businesses that were willing to pay for lots of support, then yes, $2500 or $5000 difference on the purchase of a personal computer would encourage me to consider the Atari machine. -WBE
singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) (03/31/88)
In article <22817@bbn.COM>, wbe@bbn.com (Winston B Edmond) writes: > No, I was just saying that it was not unreasonable that Atari could build a > Unix box intended to sell in that price range. I, too, would pick Sun over > Atari if they produced comparable products at comparable prices. But, if > Atari produced an '030 box for about 1/2 the cost of a comparable Sun box, > because Atari wanted the home market and Sun was selling to businesses that > were willing to pay for lots of support, then yes, $2500 or $5000 difference > on the purchase of a personal computer would encourage me to consider the > Atari machine. > -WBE Yes, but knowing the quantity of updates TOS has received (and the number of bugs/features it has) and knowing how often Unix gets updated... I hope Atari releases sources, because its the only way anything will ever get fixed.
juancho@dgp.toronto.edu (John Buchanan) (03/31/88)
About six months ago I posted a somewhat nasty message about an
imminent release of an atari unix box. I was flammed by a couple of people
from atari. I also had a :-) report from a beta test site. :-)
It went as follows
Dear Atari:
We have completed our first set of tests on the UNIX box that we
are beta testing for you. Here are some slight problems that should be
fixed.
1) Disk caching does not work and if enabled simply ignores any
writes, Any subsequent reads simply return what was in the
buffer at the time. This means that with disk caching on there
is never an EOF returned.
2) The PAT (Process allocation table) seems to have been hard coded
to only allow 20 processes to run at the same time.
3) The version of the ALCYON 5.00 that you provided with the box
requires 19 processes to run. Thus the machine kicks all
users of when a compile starts.
4) There seems to be a maximum number of directory entries that are
allowed on a system. Do you have any ideas as to what the limit
is.
5) The compiler does not return any error codes.
Ronald Raegan
President
Silly Software Inc.
Following is the letter that was returned to us from atari
Dear Silly Software:
Thank you for your comments they are being concidered for a future
release of the UNIX box. We have forwarded all the comments to DRI who
are responsible for the maintenance of the source code.
P.S. We are currently starting the development of a atari XM-P
If you would like to become a beta test site please let me know. The XM-P
will be the first super computer that will be available for mass consumption.
You will need a mega-ST as a front end for it.
Fred Drammel
President of Some dept. of Atari
:-}
=====================================================================
| Typical conversation on comp.[atari|amiga|mac].* |
=====================================================================
My watch is better than yours. It has multitasking, windows and
plays Old macdonald has a farm. I will not listen to reason, of
course your watch is not as good as mine, in fact you are
silly for having bought it. Sell it and buy my kind.
o /
====X================================================================
o \
John W. Buchanan Dynamic Graphics Project
Computer Systems Research Institute
(416) 978-6619 University of Toronto
juancho@dgp.toronto.edu
juancho@toronto.CSNET
{allegra,cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo}!utdgp!juanchogovett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) (04/01/88)
> I've never heard the saying "No one ever got fired for buying Atari"... > I have. But the "f" in "fired" was sounded like "h."
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (04/01/88)
In article <22782@bbn.COM>, wbe@bbn.com (Winston B Edmond) writes: > Actually, I've seen references to this machine in several other places > (newspapers, magazines) before seeing it today in Infoworld. In fact, less You would have to have been oblivious to not have known that Atari was targeting the Unix market...the rumors over the past year have been thick... > If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, > multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) > and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or > make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 retail, why > shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a similar price range? No doubt they will be able to do so....the *real* questions are of what *quality* will the machines be? Since I *just* bought a Sun and didn't bother to wait for their machine...you get a feel what I think of Atari's ability to deliver quality hardware. Somehow having gone through the entire GEM/TOS OS mess (40 folder limits,etc), blitter scarcities (for all i know they aren't available), disk problems, power supply problems why would i want to repeat the experience? (I would have to be a complete fool). Don't get me wrong, the Atari ST is a great terminal. The real question is what type of machine will it be? I can only go by history. ----------------- Naturally My Opinions Are My Own and Not Those of My Employers.
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (04/02/88)
In article <945@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: > Yes, but knowing the quantity of updates TOS has received (and the > number of bugs/features it has) and knowing how often Unix gets updated... > > I hope Atari releases sources, because its the only way anything will > ever get fixed. Maybe if Atari ever releases this 68030 Unix box, we'll all get lucky: Atari ships the box with an off-the-shelf (or even custom written) Unix from UniSoft (or other reputable 68k Unix vendor), and we can get Unix upgrades straight from the vendor. Nah... It was a nice fantasy, though, wasn't it? -- /\ - "Against Stupidity, - {backbones}! /\/\ . /\ - The Gods Themselves - utah-cs!utah-gr! / \/ \/\/ \ - Contend in Vain." - uplherc!sp7040! / U i n T e c h \ - Schiller - obie!wes
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (04/02/88)
In article <943@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: > I'm not sure anyone in the technical market could get their purchasing > departments to buy Atari. WRONGO! How about the USAF Air Logistics Command? OO-ALC/MASMC has ~20 1040STs, varied color and mono systems. Or how about GTE? We have 6 Mega-2 STs here, all monochrome. Oh, and yes, we are a rather "technical" market - testing and upgrading ICBM command and control systems! > And even it they did, I bet they'd hide > the nameplate to avoid being laughed out of a job. Nope, sure don't. Given the choice of my Mega, any PC-Clone, or any Mac, for day-to-day work, I'd take the Mega. Nice system, reasonable speed, and the *BEST KEYBOARD I'VE EVER LAID FINGERS ON.* Bar none. -- /\ - "Against Stupidity, - {backbones}! /\/\ . /\ - The Gods Themselves - utah-cs!utah-gr! / \/ \/\/ \ - Contend in Vain." - uplherc!sp7040! / U i n T e c h \ - Schiller - obie!wes
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (04/03/88)
In article <22782@bbn.COM> wbe@BBN.COM (Winston B Edmond) writes: >If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, >multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) >and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or >make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 retail, why >shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a similar price range? > -WBE Right. And I add: If I can get a Sun or Micro VAX etc. why buy an Atari for the same price? Oh yea, becuase they offer such great support! By the way, does anybody remember, maybe two Years ago or so, when Atari started all the 68020 rumors? It was going to have... And it will be shipping in.... Uh. Huh. Sure. -- David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!"
mrd@sun.mcs.clarkson.edu (Michael R. DeCorte) (04/03/88)
If Sun can make a Unix workstation with an Ethernet interface, VME slots, multiple RS-232 ports, a 1K * 1K resolution monochrome monitor, etc. (3/50) and make a profit when selling at 30% off the $5000 retail price ($3500), or make a (rumored) 386 machine with a color monitor for under $8000 retail, why shouldn't Atari be able to do something comparable in a similar price range? -WBE Simple, Atari has YET to produce ANYTHING that works! I am not saying that company X could not do it, but Atari has failed many, many times. Also, Sun has made several computers under their belt. It is quite trivial to port bsd, or SV and as Atari can't even get a supid single user, single taking O.S. to work, how are they going to get UNIX? For that matter that have yet to get the ST to just read a disk drive with out crashing every now and then just for the fun of it. (I am of course refering to the 40 folder limit which has yet to be FIXED).
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (04/04/88)
In article <945@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: > > I hope Atari releases [UNIX] sources, because its the only way anything will > ever get fixed. Before this goes much further, please remember that with UNIX any person or entity wishing access to source code derived from the original AT&T source distribution must first execute a Source Code License agreement with AT&T. This runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, and is thus unlikely in the home market (but more than probable for major OEMs/private labels). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
S071768@UMRVMA.BITNET (Kevin Schneider) (04/05/88)
Just a point of information. A Sun 3/50 does not have any VME slots, just the ethernet connection. You have to get to the 3/1xx or x/2xx series to get VME slots. These machines DO cost more than $5k. Acknowledge-To: <S071768@UMRVMA>
wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu (Thomas Wolf) (04/05/88)
In article <1032@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: >In article <945@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: >> >> I hope Atari releases [UNIX] sources, because its the only way anything will >> ever get fixed. > >Before this goes much further, please remember that with UNIX any person or >entity wishing access to source code derived from the original AT&T source >distribution must first execute a Source Code License agreement with AT&T. >This runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, and is thus unlikely in >the home market (but more than probable for major OEMs/private labels). [deleted signature] I believe the original message was a sarcastic one. At least to me, it was just meant to emphasize Atari's apparent inability to maintain even a small single-user operating system named TOS -- for which we're STILL waiting for fixes; some errors have been around for nearly 2 years for crying out loud -- MUCH LESS a sophisticated OS such as Unix. To Atari folks: Are there ANY plans to get the "corrected" TOS to the general public before Summer is over? Or should I ask Are there ANY plans to correct the TOS bugs? (Heavy sarcasm here) Once again, the negative aspects of this message (are there positive ones?) are not directed towards Allen Pratt or Roy Good (two of the remaining "good" guys at Atari -- at least they'll talk to us) but rather at Atari Corp. Well, enough said. I'm still a great ST fan (notice, I left out the word "Atari" before the ST) and thoroughly enjoy developing s/w for it. Tom Wolf ARPA (I think): tw@cscosl.ncsu.edu or wolf@csclea.ncsu.edu
sjl@eagle.ukc.ac.uk (S.J.Leviseur) (04/08/88)
In article <1032@atari.UUCP> good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: >In article <945@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: >> >> I hope Atari releases [UNIX] sources, because its the only way anything will >> ever get fixed. > >Before this goes much further, please remember that with UNIX any person or >entity wishing access to source code derived from the original AT&T source >distribution must first execute a Source Code License agreement with AT&T. >This runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, and is thus unlikely in >the home market (but more than probable for major OEMs/private labels). .... and universities for whom the licenses start at $400 (any university out there NOT got a source license?). So will Atari release the sources to license holders? UKnet redistribute a fixed version of UUCP which requires a source license and there are a lot of license holders out there. They are not all big companies by any means. sean
870646c@aucs.UUCP (barry comer) (04/09/88)
There seems to be alot of dumping on Atari in the last few months, I fail to see what everyone is complaining about????? I have been using a ST since about the middle of 1986, and have nothing but good luck with it! I like many other owners are very very happy with our machines. Any support that I have received from Atari has been good, including a very reasonable price on a Mega ST2(with blitter) through their educational program. So before anyone else complains think about all the good things that the ST can do, and if you can do better, THAN DO IT! later Barry
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (04/09/88)
In article <1032@atari.UUCP>, good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) writes: > Before this goes much further, please remember that with UNIX any person or > entity wishing access to source code derived from the original AT&T source > distribution must first execute a Source Code License agreement with AT&T. > This runs into the tens of thousands of dollars, and is thus unlikely in > the home market (but more than probable for major OEMs/private labels). I already am part of a System V license site, Weber State College. Who do we contact at Atari to get the sources for YOUR System V? You should not underestimate the resources of the ST hacker community. -- /\ - "Against Stupidity, - {backbones}! /\/\ . /\ - The Gods Themselves - utah-cs!utah-gr! / \/ \/\/ \ - Contend in Vain." - uplherc!sp7040! / U i n T e c h \ - Schiller - obie!wes
t19@nikhefh.hep.nl (Geert J v Oldenborgh) (04/10/88)
In the magazine 'Atari ST Nieuws' I read that the '030 would have the Sun NFS file system. Is this true? Does this mean that it can network easily with Suns? Other Unix machines? Even Apollos maybe? This would make it very interesting ...
trb@stag.UUCP ( Todd Burkey ) (04/10/88)
In article <107@obie.UUCP> wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) writes: >In article <943@xn.LL.MIT.EDU>, singer@XN.LL.MIT.EDU (Matthew R. Singer) writes: >> I'm not sure anyone in the technical market could get their purchasing >> departments to buy Atari. > >WRONGO! How about the USAF Air Logistics Command? OO-ALC/MASMC has >~20 1040STs, varied color and mono systems. Or how about GTE? We >have 6 Mega-2 STs here, all monochrome. Oh, and yes, we are a rather >"technical" market - testing and upgrading ICBM command and control >systems! I agree. When I used to work at Zycad, we bought Mono and Color ST's to use as VT100 terminals into our Vax and Apollo systems, plus local compiling and editting when the 'big' computers were on the blink. Even where I work now (ETA), we have a smattering of ST's. > >> And even it they did, I bet they'd hide >> the nameplate to avoid being laughed out of a job. only if they are really insecure people...all it takes is to leave something like CAD 3D, Tempus, or anything with a little pizzaz (NEO pictures or Steve Pauley's LCD clock) up on the screen and you will get a LOT of people interested in the ST. Most people have just never seen an ST in operation, so they have some perverted view of it as something like the 2600 game machine... -Todd Burkey trb@stag.UUCP
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (04/12/88)
In article <1040@aucs.UUCP> 870646c@aucs.UUCP (barry comer) writes: >There seems to be alot of dumping on Atari in the last few months, I fail to >see what everyone is complaining about????? I have been using a ST since >about the middle of 1986, and have nothing but good luck with it! I would like to echo Barry's sentiment. That is, you buy a computer to do something, if it does that then you should be happy and enjoy it. The Atari machines are and continue to be an excellent value, as are the Amigas, Macintoshs, and IBM PCs. This is also the reason the "My Computer is Better Than Your Computer" wars are so fruitless. They are arguing opinions from the point of view of the debater. So hopefully if you read this group and others and are thinking about buying a computer, treat advice like you would a Movie review. Take into account what you like versus what the reviewer likes and then decide if their advice is worthwhile. Even if both Siskel and Ebert (a couple of Movie critics) liked some dead teenager movie I wouldn't go to it because I don't like dead teenager movies. The other point I wished to stress is that complaining can also be seen in a good light. If Atari was really doing all these things poorly then people wouldn't complain, they would just buy a new machine and move on. If they complain it means they really like the machine and are hoping to encourage :-) Atari to fix it. Heck it's only a simple matter of programming. :-) :-) --Chuck McManis uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
good@atari.UUCP (Roy Good) (04/13/88)
In article <449@nikhefh.hep.nl>,t19@nikhefh.hep.nl(Geert J v Oldenborgh) writes: > In the magazine 'Atari ST Nieuws' I read that the '030 would have the Sun > NFS file system. Is this true? Does this mean that it can network easily with > Suns? Other Unix machines? Even Apollos maybe? This would make it very > interesting ... NFS is indeed one of the currently proposed products for the '030. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy J. Good Product Development, Atari Corporation Views expressed are my own. Atari may agree or disagree; they have the right. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
hase@netmbx.UUCP (Hartmut Semken) (04/16/88)
In article <449@nikhefh.hep.nl> t19@nikhefh.hep.nl (Geert J v Oldenborgh) writes: >In the magazine 'Atari ST Nieuws' I read that the '030 would have the Sun >NFS file system. Is this true? Does this mean that it can network easily with >Suns? Other Unix machines? Even Apollos maybe? This would make it very >interesting ... Wait for the thing show up in Your favourite computer store. Look at it. Look at the software availeble. Ask for support. Try not to swallow very hard and... now look for a real Unix machine. rumor has it that rumors are just rumors. I do not believe in ANYTHING "planned" by Atari until my dealer wants me to buy it. hase -- Hartmut Semken, Lupsteiner Weg 67, 1000 Berlin 37 (auf der Karte: links) hase@netmbx.UUCP I think, you may be right in what I think you're thinking. (Douglas Adams)