dcw@doc.ic.ac.uk (Duncan C White) (04/25/88)
In article <10400@sunybcs.UUCP> leo@sunybcs.UUCP (Leo Wilson) writes: >In article <115@avsd.UUCP> govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: >>Rumor has it that WordPerfect Corp. is so disgusted with ST users >>pirating ST WordPerfect that it is considering withdrawing it from the >>market. As I said, it's only a rumor. If true, however, it seems >>to support my thesis that software should be priced for the intended >>audience, and I know no ST users who would buy it for $300. > [stuff about Suggested Retail Price deleted] > >Personally, I don't see that the cost of software should reflect anything >more than the market will bear. If the use you get out of Word Perfect or >for that matter any other software, isn't worth the price you pay for it, >DON'T BUY IT. Don't steal it, either. You made the choice by not buying it. > But how do you know how much use you will [in the future] make of a product which you have to buy/not buy NOW ? Being able to "test-drive" a piece of software, in the comfort of your own home, would certainly be attractive to me: mind you, perhaps it would be a cut down version - so that piracy wouldn't be a problem... >What has purchase price got to do with anything at all? "Geez, if I buy >this software I can save 19 man-hours per week (at $9.00/hr) for the next >two and a half years, but I'll pass because the initial cost is $200." >Makes LOTS of sense to me to pass it by... You appear to be talking, here, about BUSINESS USE of ST's. What about PERSONAL use - games playing, programming, music etc? I don't put a price on the time I spend on my HOBBY COMPUTER... so if I see a $200 package [for the sake of argument] I would want to be REALLY SURE that I was going to use it a lot. In fact, I probably wouldn't buy it - on cost grounds alone! - if it cost much more than 100 pounds. The original poster [David Govett] wrote, in the paragraph before the one Leo quotes: >If I may be allowed to generalize, people who buy STs are, on the >whole, quite different from those who buy PCs and clones. Many PCs >go into businesses where money exists to buy expensive software, but >ST users seem to have trouble buying even moderately priced software. If I may be allowed to meta-generalize :-) I think this is right: many ST users [at least in the UK] are upgrading to 520STFM's from earlier home micros, such as the BBC Micro and the Spectrum. Typically, then, they [or their parents!] just manage to fork out the 300 quid for the basic computer, and then are faced with high software prices [such as the typical game being 20 quid and Fast Basic being 70 quid or so - because most of them have used BBC BASIC and want a lookalike] Not surprisingly, many of them pirate various software - games, Fast Basic, assemblers, drawing tools etc. Other buyers [like most of those on Usenet/BITNET/FIDO/whatever else] may use Unix or similar big systems at work, and were interested much more in "1MB RAM, 68000, bit mapped graphics, CHEAP" than "look at all the flashy games" These people probably make some serious use of the machine - it is these who yell about the quality of the documentation. It is these sort of people who tend to prefer command-line-interpreters, hate GEM, and are interested in multi-tasking O/S for the ST... [Of course, the above is a simplification... what isn't!] In the above context, I think that the market for something like WordPerfect - an expensive professional word processor for business use - would be extremely small in the UK. Products like First Word Plus and u-emacs/Proff/TeX are much more likely to be used by the typical user community - the first by those who like GEM and the second by those multi-tasking lovers. Now, ok, the ST may be a good cheap small business machine - and Atari certainly seem to be targetting the desktop publishing market - but with the advent of cheap PC clones [Amstrad PC1512 at 400 pounds, for instance] the ST is going to have some stiff competition on price, to get into the business market. As many people have remarked, one of the ST's biggest problems [blocking its use in business] is being seen as a games machine. The situation may be different in the States, of course... I have little [or no] knowledge of the typical buyer there... >=== >Leo E. Wilson 364 West Delavan Avenue Buffalo, NY 14213 (716)883-7573 >(leo@gort.cs.Buffalo.EDU) ...!sunybcs[!leow]!leo leo@sunybcs.bitnet Duncan White. I woke up this morning, hit a few random keys, and lo and behold, this article appeared. Should I have stayed in bed? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Duncan White, | Flying is the art of aiming oneself Dept. Of Computing, | at the ground and missing. Imperial College, | -- Douglas Adams, So Long and Thanks London SW7, England | for all the fish.
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (04/28/88)
In article <267@gould.doc.ic.ac.uk> dcw@gould.UUCP (Duncan C White) writes: >In article <10400@sunybcs.UUCP> leo@sunybcs.UUCP (Leo Wilson) writes: >>In article <115@avsd.UUCP> govett@avsd.UUCP (David Govett) writes: >>What has purchase price got to do with anything at all? "Geez, if I buy >>this software I can save 19 man-hours per week (at $9.00/hr) for the next >>two and a half years, but I'll pass because the initial cost is $200." >>Makes LOTS of sense to me to pass it by... > >You appear to be talking, here, about BUSINESS USE of ST's. >What about PERSONAL use - games playing, programming, music etc? >I don't put a price on the time I spend on my HOBBY COMPUTER... >so if I see a $200 package [for the sake of argument] >I would want to be REALLY SURE that I was going to use it a lot. > >In fact, I probably wouldn't buy it - on cost grounds alone! - if it cost much >more than 100 pounds. And this is the reason that the ST will follow in the footsteps of the VIC-20, TRS-80, and a slew of others. There aren't enough computer buyers for the number of computers trying to stay alive in this "home-computer" market. And there certainly aren't enough ST software buyers in this market. The ST is relatively new "home" computer (compared to C-64, C-128 and PC Clones). It has a MUCH smaller installed base. There's enough of these machines out there to finance new software development. Not so for the ST. This is also the reason Atari is trying desperately to move into the "real" computer business. They're seeing devlopers drop off like long horns in a snow drift. But this brings us to the next point... >Now, ok, the ST may be a good cheap small business machine - and Atari >certainly seem to be targetting the desktop publishing market - but with >the advent of cheap PC clones [Amstrad PC1512 at 400 pounds, for instance] >the ST is going to have some stiff competition on price, to get into the >business market. >As many people have remarked, one of the ST's biggest problems [blocking >its use in business] is being seen as a games machine. Not only cheap PC clones, but what about real brand-name machines like cheap Macs, cheap IBMs. Atari is always advertising that the ST is so much cheaper that IBM and Apple. But how in the heack to they back that up? A recent Atari Mega ST ad said that the Mega ST is "faster, more feature-rich that a Mac SE. For just about half the price." How do they figure? I'm not even a Mac fan, but realistically I'd have to say the SE has a lot to offer compared to the Mega ST. The SE has a real bus, with real (not vaporware) boards I can buy today. It has industry wide support. It has software that works in real world and is supportted by the vendors and the industry. etc. etc. The Mega has a Atari proprietary bus that's never going to have much hardware available for it (I' not going to hold my breath for Atari to release something, and not too many big players in the hardware dept. are going to develop something for an Atari computer (witness the number of big-name software companies that have done Atari software). Now what about the price. I can buy a Mac SE with a 40MB hard disk for about $2300. If I could buy a Mega ST2, mono, it would cost me at least $1200. Then I need a 40MB hard disk. Hummm... I don't see a 40MB HD on my Atari Price list. I guess I'll have to use a 3rd party. (What exactly do they mean by feature-rich?). OK a Supra 40MB drive at my local dealer is $995. That makes a 40MB Mega ST2 mono. total system price of just about $2200. Wow a whole $100 savings over the Mac SE! The ads always compare list prices, but never talk about real-world prices. Not to mention the savings of a Mac Plus over a Mega ST! The same comparison can be made with IBM PS-2 systems. The Ataris aren't really much cheaper, if at all, when you go out in the world and really try to buy a system. And of course the clones are usually way cheaper than an ST. So how does Atari back up what they claim in their ads? -- David Beckemeyer | "Yuh gotta treat people jes' like yuh Beckemeyer Development Tools | do mules. Don't try to drive 'em. Jes' 478 Santa Clara Ave, Oakland, CA 94610 | leave the gate open a mite an' let 'em UUCP: ...!ihnp4!hoptoad!bdt!david | bust in!"
rogers@ncrcce.StPaul.NCR.COM (Bob Rogers) (04/30/88)
In article <305@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >And this is the reason that the ST will follow in the footsteps of the VIC-20, Sadly, the VIC-20 had better support than the ST, both from its maker and from 3rd parties. >They're seeing devlopers drop off like long horns in >a snow drift. Is this true? Seems to me that its more a problem of developers never getting into the ST market in the first place. Can anyone name some developers who have dropped the ST? >Not only cheap PC clones, but what about real brand-name machines like >cheap Macs, cheap IBMs. Good point - I was surprised to find that both the Mac Plus and low-end PS-2s are now cheaper than comparable ST systems. Atari _had_ price as a selling point -- what's left now? >And of course the clones are usually way cheaper than an ST. So how >does Atari back up what they claim in their ads? It's a Tramiel operation - they don't have to back up their claims! -- Bob Rogers rogers@StPaul.NCR.COM NCR Comten, St. Paul, MN
jdg@elmgate.UUCP (Jeff Gortatowsky) (04/30/88)
I could'nt agree w/ Mr. Beckmeyer more! I can buy a PC-Clone much cheaper than a mega. And, the public domain applications software is in most cases better than commercial grade ST software. I do blame atari for claiming what nice support I was going to get on my $3000 purchase, and when it came right down to it, all that was tripe. During Deskcart!'s construction, several hardware/software questions were asked of atari and absolutely NO decent answers given. In fact, at one point QMI was told it cannot be done. Water under the bridge... QMI will be lucky to break even on the product. I rasied real comotion(sp?) on a local BBS by asking a simple question "Why should I develop software for the ST?". By the time it was done with, 3 people sold there ST's, and, still no decent answers. PRINT-IT!, another program I coded that never made it to market (another story completly) was given to Beta testers... And one day I recieve a phone call from a chap I had'nt talked w/ since early 8 bit days. We chatted botu' this and that... and, I was told (to my total astonishment!) that PRINT-IT! was on bulletin boards in california... He downloaded it and showed it to me! And I'm gonna make enough money to justify the time and effort put into an application? (har! har!). A mac II developers system was/is able to be had for $3500... Apple has an upgrade for AUX thats free... a total motherboard replacement... I would love to think that atari could reverse the trends that snowballed during their "we don't care syndrome". I like coding on the ST (did I say that?), beyond the masses of bugs, and the "I can only run this program if I dont have that program resident & that program I need because I want to do this... So, I'll go spend useless money on a program that works." (I wish atari had put the reset button on a function key, as, it gets as much action as any other key.) The root I guess is that the market has me (and I guess many others) totally perplexed. (P.S. This is a borrowed acnt. send any email to the address below. It'll be forwarded to me). cheers... Rick -- Jeff Gortatowsky .....allegra!rochester!kodak!elmgate!jdg Eastman Kodak Company These comments are mine alone and not Eastman Kodak's. How's that for a simple and complete disclaimer?
davidli@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Dave Meile) (05/02/88)
In article <924@elmgate.UUCP> rg@aurora.UUCP writes: >I could'nt agree w/ Mr. Beckmeyer more! I can buy a PC-Clone much cheaper >than a mega. And, the public domain applications software is in most >cases better than commercial grade ST software. So. Go out and buy a PC-Clone and quit bitching in comp.sys.atari.st. It is getting pretty boring hearing nothing but "Jack Tramiel did me wrong." > PRINT-IT!, another program I coded that never made it to >market (another story completly) was given to Beta testers... And one day >I recieve a phone call from a chap I had'nt talked w/ since early 8 bit >days. We chatted botu' this and that... and, I was told (to my total >astonishment!) that PRINT-IT! was on bulletin boards in california... >He downloaded it and showed it to me! And I'm gonna make enough money >to justify the time and effort put into an application? (har! har!). Sounds like you have more of a problem with your "Beta testers" than with Atari. Or, do you blame Jack Tramiel for the fact that YOU let your program out to someone without scruples? You can, of course, rant and rave about all of those mean nasty people who buy STs for the sole purpose of pirating software -- but do it somewhere other than in a semi-technical ... no scratch that, THIS newsgroup is really the "I HATE JACK TRAMIEL" newgroup, right? Your problem is that you should be developing software for another computer. There's an easy solution -- buy another computer and work with it. At least then I won't have to wade through umpteen messages from folks complaining "Jack Tramiel did me wrong". >A mac II developers system was/is able to be had for $3500... Apple has >an upgrade for AUX thats free... a total motherboard replacement... There, you see. I thought you could find a computer that suits you more than the Atari ST. Buy a Macintosh and program using AUX (fully realizing that the folks who shell out $$ for a Mac II running A/UX will expect your program to be worth running on their $7500-$10,000 machine.) >cheers... Rick I understand how difficult it is to market software -- even for computers with great support. I understand how frustrating Atari management can get. I just do not want to hear it, day in and day out, in this particular forum. There are other things to do than hear people carp about a hardware company. -- Dave Meile