soohoo@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Ken Soohoo) (09/14/88)
In article <379@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >In article <8809061721.AA27884@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <Micheal Eibl> writes: [Dying computer remarks from Germany deleted] > >I've been hearing this "dying computer" attitude from dealers, distributors, >and even some magazine publishers (always the last to go) for several months, >but I've been reluctant to say anything because I feared it would be construed >as nothing more than an attempted stab at Atari. It isn't. It truly >appears that Atari has played out their last hand. According to reports >from dealers and distributors sales have fallen dramatically. Personally >BDT sales of Atari products have dropped to 1/5 the size of 18 months ago >(this is partially attributed to a major de-emphasis of the Atari product >line by the company) and today Atari product sales represent less than 20% >of BDT revenues. > Sorry that sales have been bad David, but what's the point? Atari has never really pushed the ST line, and they don't advertise, so what's changed (are your products dropping in sales for some other reason?) If your sales from Atari Prods are 20% of revenue now, and they are 1/5 the size of 18 months prior, does that mean 18 months ago they were 100% of your revenue?? ISN'T THAT GOOD?? This means you're selling MORE than Atari Products, and becoming a MORE DIVERSE, BETTER COMPANY!!! YES the lack of exciting PR news from Atari causes the market to become depressed, but that's MUCH better than Atari just talking and not releasing. In fact, hasn't Roy Good been hinting about something new (Razzle Dazzle) on the horizon? Something that you'd like to "Stay Tuned" for? >BDT revenues from other areas are now financing Atari customer support. We >will continue to support our Atari customers. But how many other companies >have alternate sources of revenue upon which to fund Atari support? I >bet not very many. So what's going to happen? What about the end-user? >I think the consumer who paid hard-earned money in hopes of obtaining >a useful computer system is the big loser here, especially those that >have invested lots of hardware, money, and time on the ST. > The "consumer who paid hard-earned money" for his Atari system is NOT a loser, he (or she) gets an excellent piece of hardware that has a huge base of software (PD & commercial), and DOESN'T depend on Atari for day-to-day support anyway -- just because Atari doesn't advertise, and isn't pushing the ST line DOESN'T mean that the ST suddenly becomes a changed machine. Personally, I think the user who pays too much and uses his machine for too little is a big loser, and I certainly can't say that for ANY Atari owners I know. >I guess in all this rambling one thing I'm trying to say is that all >of us invested in Atari. Now what are they going to do for us? A >long slow death is the worst for everyone, including the stock-holders. > "What are they going to do for us?" That's a terrible attitude! Don't you think that YOU make a contribution to the welfare of Atari also, and that by posting disparaging remarks just ADDS to the DECLINE in your sales??? >It seems to me that this should be a lot more troubesome to all of us >than whether or not they have fixed the Malloc bug. >-- Fine, but why gripe when you can be holding constructive, educational conversations (ex: learning about animation techniques, and working with the system in new, neat ways). Many ideas for new products, and implementations of many good concepts have been given life through the net, don't abuse it by bitching. --Kenneth Soohoo (soohoo@cory.Berkeley.Edu) Atari 400/800/600xl/800xl/1200/130xe/65xe, 1040ST hacker Sometime Berkeley Student, othertimes... My opinions are my OWN, not necessarily Atari's
seitz@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Matthew Eric Seitz) (09/14/88)
In article <5618@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> soohoo@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Ken Soohoo) writes: >> > Sorry that sales have been bad David, but what's the point? > Atari has never really pushed the ST line, and they don't > advertise, so what's changed (are your products dropping in > sales for some other reason?) As more and more time goes by without the push, more people begin to doubt the future of the ST. This means new products aren't developed which makes more people doubt the future of the ST, etc. It's that little has changed which is the problem. > > YES the lack of exciting PR news from Atari causes the market > to become depressed, but that's MUCH better than Atari just > talking and not releasing. This is damning with faint praise. Not only does Atari need to stop making announcements too far in advance, they also need to release new products, especially those they have been talking about for so long. >In fact, hasn't Roy Good been > hinting about something new (Razzle Dazzle) on the > horizon? Something that you'd like to "Stay Tuned" for? > Unfortunately Neil Harris was also hinting about something new on the horizon. I would love to see all the good things Roy's talking about, I hope I will see them, most of the time I think I will see them. But until I can walk into a store and buy them, they're just talk. > The "consumer who paid hard-earned money" for his Atari system > is NOT a loser, he (or she) gets an excellent piece of hardware that > has a huge base of software (PD & commercial), and DOESN'T depend on > Atari for day-to-day support anyway -- just because Atari doesn't > advertise, and isn't pushing the ST line DOESN'T mean that the ST > suddenly becomes a changed machine. Unfortunately it does become a changed machine. It changes from a promising new machine with lots of potential for growth to one which is withering on the vine. Most people want a computer that will be able to take advantage of tomorrow's new developments. A computer which will did task A a year ago, does task B today, and will do task C tommorrow is a different machine than one that does task A today and might do task B tomorrow. A company's support is important to user's and developer's ( and developer support is important to users). A company's support gives user's the confidence to buy the machine. This, along with company support, encourages developer support of the machine. Develper support give's the user even more confidence to buy the machine, which encourages more developer support. Either way, a good cycle or a bad cycle begins with the manufacturer. > > Personally, I think the user who pays too much and uses his > machine for too little is a big loser, and I certainly can't > say that for ANY Atari owners I know. > Amen to this. >>I guess in all this rambling one thing I'm trying to say is that all >>of us invested in Atari. Now what are they going to do for us? A >>long slow death is the worst for everyone, including the stock-holders. >> > "What are they going to do for us?" That's a terrible attitude! > Don't you think that YOU make a contribution to the welfare > of Atari also, and that by posting disparaging remarks just > ADDS to the DECLINE in your sales??? > What's so terrible about this? Isn't it usual to expect a company to help the customer, whether he be a user or a developer. I'm sure David is aware that negative comments may affect sales. However, in the long run, being honest about a company's problems as well as it's strengths makes your opinion worth hearing. Ignoring the problems won't make them go away. Support has to work both ways. >>-- > Fine, but why gripe when you can be holding constructive, > educational conversations (ex: learning about animation > techniques, and working with the system in new, neat ways). > > Many ideas for new products, and implementations of many > good concepts have been given life through the net, don't > abuse it by bitching. There's room on the net for both, and David has provided both help and criticism. Pointing out problems in the hope of prompting a solution is not "bitching." > >--Kenneth Soohoo (soohoo@cory.Berkeley.Edu) > Atari 400/800/600xl/800xl/1200/130xe/65xe, 1040ST hacker > Sometime Berkeley Student, othertimes... > My opinions are my OWN, not necessarily Atari's Matthew Seitz seitz@cory.berkeley.edu
mikew@wheeler.wrcr.unr.edu (Mike Whitbeck) (09/15/88)
In article <5618@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> soohoo@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Ken Soohoo) writes: >In article <379@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >>In article <8809061721.AA27884@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <Micheal Eibl> writes: > >[Dying computer remarks from Germany deleted] > >> >>I've been hearing this "dying computer" attitude from dealers, distributors, >>and even some magazine publishers (always the last to go) for several months, It is a pity that there is not a bigger push in marketing the ST's and MEGA's as OFFICE machines ! I have an XT (clone) in my office, a 1040ST and a second 1040 at home. I NEVER turn on the XT anymore. The ST is BETTER SUITED TO MY USES! I use it as a workstation on a SUN 3/280- with the ST I can use the best comm pgm I have ever found (UNITERM- pd), I can compile C, FORTRAN, or PASCAL, spreadsheets, wordprocessing.... just like a MAC+ or XT but faster! In fact with the release of SPECTRE 128 I expect to not only beat a MAC+ in performance BUT WHILE RUNNING MAC SOFTWARE!! IS THIS VALUE OR WHAT! Others in my office opted for MAC+- you should hear their complaints about memory shortage when trying to use a WORDperfect, etc. Say what you will about atari or the ST it is the best buy I could find! Knowing what I do about my ST - if I heard atari would close shop tomorrow I would rush to a dealer today because the 1040ST DOES SO MUCH FOR THE PRICE!!!!!!! <flame on> But please, someone bring European hardware/software business products over to the US!!! ethernet , TeX and many other goodies await if only someone (like atari) would push this or the mega hard in the US as a sensible alternate office machine !! <flame off> Thats my 2cents. If I offend any MAC owners dont write- I love MAC software I just dont love the MAC price all that well. As for the XT ditto.... |Mike Whitbeck | | |Desert Research Inst. | mikew@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu | |POB 60220 | | |RENO, NV 89506 | 702-673-7348 | ___________________________________________________________ |Mike Whitbeck | | |Desert Research Inst. | mikew@wheeler.wrc.unr.edu |
greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) (09/16/88)
In article <5636@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> seitz@cory.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Matthew Eric Seitz) writes: > > As more and more time goes by without the push, more people begin to >doubt the future of the ST. This means new products aren't developed which >makes more people doubt the future of the ST, etc. It's that little >has changed which is the problem. > > This is damning with faint praise. Not only does Atari need to stop >making announcements too far in advance, they also need to release new products, >especially those they have been talking about for so long. It's really ironic. At the last major computer show, Atari, following its new no-vaporware policy, did *not* display the non-product ABAQ, nor the rumored 68030/*nix box. This was immediately interpreted as a product cancellation by many. In fact, it represents a verifiable commitment on the part of Atari to *not* show unavailable products. Sometimes, you just can't win, no matter what you do. > > Unfortunately Neil Harris was also hinting about something new on the >horizon. I would love to see all the good things Roy's talking about, I hope >I will see them, most of the time I think I will see them. But until I can walk >into a store and buy them, they're just talk. There's good news. For the first time that I can remember, I have seen a television commercial for the Atari 1040ST! It was shown in the San Francisco area, I think at 6:30 last Saturday, I can't recall the station. The advert compared the cost/byte of the 1040 versus the Macintosh and the IBM PC, and displayed the slogan "Business is War". I saw a second commercial later in the week for the 7800 video game. It seems that Atari has decided that there *is* a market worth persuing in the U.S. Furthermore, Atari is becoming a strong presence at Desktop Publishing conferences, with the lowest-priced entry-level system. > A company's support is important to user's and developer's ( and >developer support is important to users). A company's support gives user's >the confidence to buy the machine. This, along with company support, encourages >developer support of the machine. Develper support give's the user even more >confidence to buy the machine, which encourages more developer support. Either >way, a good cycle or a bad cycle begins with the manufacturer. Yes, but part of that developer support includes not obsoleting a company's current products by making changes to the O.S. which break existing software. Atari has demonstrated their understanding of that fact, even in the face of the pressure seen here and elsewhere to do otherwise. That is *true* developer support. Atari has placed the value of end-users with an investment in software over the wishes of a few of us knowledgable about the internals of the system. The perception of the outside community, that Atari improved the operating system without breaking existing code, will be worth far more in the long run than a few insiders knowing that they did it "right", but broke dozens of products. > What's so terrible about this? Isn't it usual to expect a company >to help the customer, whether he be a user or a developer. I'm sure David >is aware that negative comments may affect sales. However, in the long run, >being honest about a company's problems as well as it's strengths makes your >opinion worth hearing. Ignoring the problems won't make them go away. >Support has to work both ways. Atari Corp. is ready, willing, and able to help the customer with a legitimate problem with their hardware. They cannot be held responsible for defects in software they didn't write. They also can't help customers who don't tell them there is a problem. We see a lot of that on the net: someone has a hardware problem, and immediately gripes to the net, before he has even contacted Atari about a fix. How is that fair to Atari? I have yet to see *anyone* complain that they went to Atari for help, and came away unsatisfied. Greg Wageman ARPA: greg%sentry@spar.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies BIX: gwage 1601 Technology Drive CIS: 74016,352 San Jose, CA 95110 GEnie: GWAGEMAN (408) 437-5198 UUCP: ...!decwrl!spar!sentry!greg ------------------ Opinions expressed herein are solely the responsibility of the author.
andyc@hplsla.HP.COM ( Andy Cassino) (09/17/88)
As the new owner of an ST2, I'd like to add my two cents about this "dying
computer" hoopla.
While shopping around for my computer, many dealers told me whatever they
could to discourage me from Atari and get me into an Amiga:
"Atari ST computers are hard to get and we can't keep them in stock.
They're backordered and who knows when they'll come in."
"There isn't any profit margin in Atari computers since Atari shut out
the discount mail-order activity."
"We don't discount our Atari computers, except for demos, because they're
hot sellers and we don't need to."
"Most people are opting for Amigas these days because the Atari is pretty
much of a dead end. Look at our software shelves - 90% Amiga and less Atari
stuff everyday. No one is buying the Atari stuff."
I ended up buying my Atari from a local music store, from stock, at a
discount, and they got me all the software I wanted within a week, again
at a discount (music stores don't sell lots of compilers!). The discounts
rivaled those mail-order outfits that the other dealers seem to think
are out of business.
I can only speculate as to why these dealers are verbalizing these
conflicting packs of lies. Somehow they must figure that they can make
more money by doing it. Maybe they're overstocked on Amigas? ;-)
Disclaimer: The author has no pecuniary interest in any of the companies
mentioned. The opinions expressed herein are solely those of the author.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Andy Cassino %
% uucp: hplabs!hplsla!andyc domain: andyc%hplsla@hplabs.hp.com %
% Hewlett-Packard Lake Stevens Instrument Division %
% 8600 Soper Hill Road Everett, WA 98205-1298 %
% (206) 335-2211 %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%Thomas_E_Zerucha@cup.portal.com (09/17/88)
There are a few things which may be missing here. First, last I heard, Atari Corporation are selling ST's of all makes as fast as they can make them - which many businesses would probabaly like to be in. From a consumer's point of view, the ST is a bargain. It isn't very expensive, and is very sophisticated hardware (It even runs Mac software better than a real Mac - thank you Dave Small!). The programs are priced very competitive (the <$100 word processors blow away most of the things for the Mac and PC I have seen - at least in either price or performance). The problem is for the *DEVELOPERS*. It isn't that hard to write ST software, and there is a lot of quality PD stuff out. Atari has not been very supportive (I realize that there is a new "push" at Atari, but it has not really materialized for the most part). I don't know how many are working for the European market, put that is apparently where at least half of the ST's are. And here, games seems to be a larger segement of the market than common business programs, much less esoteric utilities. I don't know what Atari can do about this either - their logo is not one that most purchasers or managers recognize, or if they do, "Isn't that a game machine?" is usually the response. And with the DRAM shortage and such, they couldn't provide them in numbers anyway. I really liked the ad in that desktop publishing magazine, and hope to see more, but it is likely to require more. And part of the problem is to get these larger volume customers who are likely to buy site licenses and a lot more software (at least things other than games). I would also perhaps appreciate some more recognition on the part of Atari that Software is a part of what sells the machine, and in some cases a large part - and not the software Atari writes. Perhaps Atari should consider aiding some of the developers in Atari's targeted ads by simply mentioning that such software is available from..., which they have done in their MIDI ads. I don't think the ST is dead or dying now, but it has to do something soon since the software supply will dry up otherwise (much as your doctor might tell you to quit smoking or lose weight - you won't die tomorrow, but you won't stay healthy indefinitely while indulging).
dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jon Brode) (09/18/88)
In article <1579@tahoe.unr.edu>, mikew@wheeler.wrcr.unr.edu (Mike Whitbeck) writes: > In fact with the release of SPECTRE 128 I expect to not only > beat a MAC+ in performance BUT WHILE RUNNING MAC SOFTWARE!! What's the latest word on SPECTRE 128? How is it for compatability (Multi-finder, Excel, Hype-Card, Full-Write, etc...) with programs and sound? What is the projected release date? > But please, someone bring European hardware/software business > products over to the US!!! > ethernet , TeX and many other goodies await if only someone I would love to see some info on the Atari Ethernet. Does anyone know anything about it? Also, I have TeX for the ST. Someone just ported it and sent it to our intermediate archive. FTP to clio.math.lsa.umich.edu (35.195.16.4) and sign on as id ftp with any password. [If you were using euterpe, switch to clio, you'll get a better connection] We're still setting up our real archives on the 3090, but until then grab it off there. Feel free to send something back to us :-), especially suff that you ported and want to have distributed. Send sources too, we have next to unlimited disk space. Jon Brode -- dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu Moderator of PC7, President of WAUG
Friesen@PCO-MULTICS.HBI.HONEYWELL.COM (09/18/88)
Mike Whitbeck writes: ><Flame on> >But please, someone bring European hardware/software business >products ofver to the US!!! The mail order company E. Arthur Brown Company offers European software. I have never seen what they offer, or ordered something from them, so I cannot tell you if they are trustworthy, but I remember someone on the net reccommeding them for mouse/ball controllers. Their address is: 3404 Pawnee Drive, Alexandria, MN 56308 If you want to place an order over the phone, their number is: 1-800-322-4405 If you want information their number is: (612)762-8847. I suggest that you write them a letter telling them what you want, and if they have it, I'm sure they'll send you information. They also carry a line of PD software for the ST and some software for the Amiga. Remember, I have never ordered from them, so I don't know how reliable they are. "Exterminate! Exterminate!"--Daleks /~\-* ###--< /***\ /*****\ Aric Friesen Addresses: Genie: A.FRIESEN ARPA: Friesen%PCO@BCO-MULTICS.ARPA
franco@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (09/18/88)
Thank you WAUG. The TeXer/LaTexer is beautiful.
dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jon Brode) (09/18/88)
In article <36500054@iuvax> franco@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu writes: > >Thank you WAUG. The TeXer/LaTexer is beautiful. I think we have a case of mistaken identities here. First thing, Dave Dermott did the port, all thanks and credit go to him for TeX and LaTeX. Second, WAUG is the Washtenaw Atari Users Group, I'm the President, but the group has nothing to do with the net. (If you want to join though... send e-mail :-) PC7 archive status report: 450 files, 26 megs. We'll be ready to go when I finish indexing it all. Jon Brode -- dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu Moderator of PC7, President of WAUG
to_stdnet@stag.UUCP (09/19/88)
From: thelake!steve@stag.UUCP (Steve Yelvington) dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jon Brode) writes... > Also, I have TeX for the ST. Someone just ported it > and sent it to our intermediate archive. FTP to clio.math.lsa.umich.edu > (35.195.16.4) and sign on as id ftp with any password. [If you were This is very interesting. I suppose it'll show up at ssyx and lakesys for us UUCP peons. :-) Which leads me to ask -- what are the system requirements for this program? What printers does it support? | thelake!steve@stag.UUCP / ...rosevax!pwcs!stag!thelake!steve
dlm@druhi.ATT.COM (Dan Moore) (09/19/88)
in article <407@stag.math.lsa.umich.edu>, dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jon Brode) says: > What's the latest word on SPECTRE 128? How is it for compatability > (Multi-finder, Excel, Hype-Card, Full-Write, etc...) with programs > and sound? What is the projected release date? The Spectre 128 is a lot more compatible with the Mac than the Magic Sac was. Multi-Finder runs, though it is something of a memory hog (ie. a good excuse to have 4 meg) and some programs are not 100% stable when running under it. (That's also true on the Mac, Dave hasn't figured out which problems are Mac problems and which are Spectre 128 problems.) Excel runs just fine on the Spectre 128, not surprising since it ran on the Magic Sac also. HyperCard runs just fine on the Spectre as long as you have at least a meg of RAM. It's another memory hog. I don't know about Full-Write, I've never used it and I never asked Dave if it runs or not. The current version of the Spectre 128 doesn't support sound though it is being worked on. Dave has a test version that does have sound but he isn't sure that it can be made stable enough for release. Gadgets by Small was at the Glendale Atari show this last weekend (Friday the 16th and Saturday the 17th) with the first production run. Phone and mail orders will be shipping in the next couple of weeks when the next production run comes in. You should really contact Gadgets by Small for information on availability, I don't know if the next production run is sold out or not. You can reach Dave at dsmall@well.UUCP. Or you can write/call: Gadgets by Small, Inc. 40 W. Littleton Blvd. #210-211 Littleton, CO 80120 (303) 791-6098 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan Moore AT&T Bell Labs Denver dlm@druhi.ATT.COM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NETOPRHM@NCSUVM.BITNET (Hal Meeks) (09/20/88)
Come back in six months and tell me the ST isn't dying...... You guys have some very unwelcome surprises in store. --hal
hyc@math.lsa.umich.edu (Howard Chu) (09/20/88)
In article <597@stag.UUCP> to_stdnet@stag.UUCP writes: >From: thelake!steve@stag.UUCP (Steve Yelvington) > > dyer@math.lsa.umich.edu (Jon Brode) writes... > >> Also, I have TeX for the ST. Someone just ported it >> and sent it to our intermediate archive. FTP to clio.math.lsa.umich.edu >> (35.195.16.4) and sign on as id ftp with any password. [If you were > >This is very interesting. I suppose it'll show up at ssyx and lakesys >for us UUCP peons. :-) Which leads me to ask -- what are the system >requirements for this program? What printers does it support? TeX does not support any printers. It generates a special output format that is device independent, known as the TeX DVI format. You generate hardcopy from a dvi file by processing that file with a program written specifically for whatever printer you need to use. There are DVI processors for Postscript, HP Laserjets, Xerox printers, phototypesetters, you name it. Even for direct previewing on the ST display. (DVIST, posted to the binaries group several months ago.) The TeX files we have archived are the source and executables for the main TeX program(s) only, as well as a small selection of fonts. A full TeX distribution would come with a large number of macro packages for special formatting tasks, a larger number of fonts, the Metafont program for designing, customizing, and converting fonts, and a small selection of DVIxxxx programs for generating hardcopy. TeX is distributed freely from a number of sites, but the only ones I keep track of are ftp sites. (score.stanford.edu and june.cs.washington.edu being most notable.) From looking thru the README, it appears this ST version was created with MegaMax C, based on the original Web sources for TeX, run thru the Web-To-C translator... From what I recall of this translator, it produces a much more efficient and powerful TeX than just the straight Web to Pascal process. -- / /_ , ,_. Howard Chu / /(_/(__ University of Michigan / Computing Center College of LS&A ' Unix Project Information Systems
t68@nikhefh.hep.nl (Jos Vermaseren) (09/21/88)
All this talk about a dying computer is clearly by people who are either 1: unfamiliar with the European scene 2: unfriendly to the ST (have an axe to grind). In Europe the ST is selling very well. Maybe a part of the American problem (if it exists) is that a much larger percentage of systems sold in the US is a color system than in Europe. The color systems are not really very suitable to work with (in the eyes of all the people that I know who have an Atari). This leaves the color systems as either a special purpose system, or a games machine. If the dying approach concerns those applications I'll not say very much. The monochrome systems that I see in use every day are very powerful mini computers. In the shops they sell very well. Maybe the good software never made it to the US. A sign that indicates this is that even turbo-c for the ST was developed in Germany, not by Borland-US. This leaves the question: why is the American preference for color so much greater than in Europe? I posed this question a long time ago, but nobody could come up with an explanation. Anybody has one? Jos Vermaseren
jrd@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.SYMBOLICS.COM (John R. Dunning) (09/27/88)
Date: 19 Sep 88 23:45:42 GMT
From: netoprhm%ncsuvm.BITNET@jade.berkeley.edu (Hal Meeks)
Come back in six months and tell me the ST isn't dying......
You guys have some very unwelcome surprises in store.
If you actually know something, why not just tell us instead of posting
provocative messages?