ravi@mcnc.UUCP (02/07/87)
>What about upgrading the current ST's to accept the expansion peripherals >that will be available on the Mega's. It seems like there may be a lot >of yet to be developed peripherals that we will miss out on unless something >is done. (like the Atari Laserprinter, for example) The following is taken from a note posted to Compuserve by Atari: "The Atari Laser Printer driver is being modified to output VDI printer workstation calls thru the DMA port. Therefore, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (my emphasis) developers can simply treat the Atari Laser Printer as any other VDI device. ..... ADDITIONAL: The 300 dot per inch printer will be sold for less than $1500 US. " Rest easy, folks! -ravi
braner@batcomputer.UUCP (02/10/87)
[] To do any real work with a 300 dpi laser printer you need 2 megabytes. That's because 300*300*8*10 = 7200000 bits = 900000 bytes for a bit map of an 8*10 inch page at 300 dpi. And then you need a lot of space for fonts and such. Notice that the Laserjet plus and the Laserwriter plus both have 2 megs. Thus, no desktop publishing with a 1040ST and the RAM-less Atari Laser Printer. - Moshe Braner
turner@imagen.UUCP (02/11/87)
in article <144@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, braner@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (braner) says: > > [] > > To do any real work with a 300 dpi laser printer you need 2 megabytes. > That's because 300*300*8*10 = 7200000 bits = 900000 bytes for a bit map > of an 8*10 inch page at 300 dpi. And then you need a lot of space for > fonts and such. Notice that the Laserjet plus and the Laserwriter plus > both have 2 megs. Thus, no desktop publishing with a 1040ST and the > RAM-less Atari Laser Printer. > > - Moshe Braner wanna bet ???? with a little work (i seriously can't elaborate, company proprietary etc.) you can store fonts and rasterize in 1 meg with room to spare, it just takes a little ingenuity and less snap judgements, sorry that sounds bitchy but i haven't had coffee yet; it just that i prefer people who tell how things can be done, not how they can't be done. lots and lots of sh*t to defeat the 50% rule -- --------------- C'est la vie, C'est le guerre, C'est la pomme de terre Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101 UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner AT&T: (408) 986-9400
dyer@atari.UUCP (02/12/87)
Humph: > To do any real work with a 300 dpi laser printer you need 2 megabytes. > That's because 300*300*8*10 = 7200000 bits = 900000 bytes for a bit map > of an 8*10 inch page at 300 dpi. And then you need a lot of space for > fonts and such. Notice that the Laserjet plus and the Laserwriter plus > both have 2 megs. Thus, no desktop publishing with a 1040ST and the > RAM-less Atari Laser Printer. Calm down. HP laserjets manage to do just fine, thank you, without imaging a page. (The laserjet plus has 512K --- a rumored "jumbo" jet has 2Mb or something like that. Go read your laserjet manual again). The same memory non-constraints apply to the ST. It is possible to get surprisingly complex output by banding in real time. These same programming techniques were used in the days of the VCS, where the processor had to keep up with the scanning electron (or laser) beam. Fortunately, on the ST, only the guy writing the laser-printer driver needs to worry about such things. It doesn't have to use gobs of memory, either. Naturally, if you are using postscript, you *must* image a page, because postscript is so very slow.... -- -Landon Dyer, Atari Corp. {sun,lll-lcc,imagen}!atari!dyer The views expressed here do not not necessarily reflect those of Atari Corp. Segments are for worms.
jdm@gssc.UUCP (02/12/87)
*** FLAME ON *** In article <558@atari.UUCP> dyer@atari.UUCP (Landon Dyer) writes: >Naturally, if you are using postscript, you *must* image a page, >because postscript is so very slow.... this is horse-puckey!! postscript *is* slow, but it is NOT because it uses a full-page bitmap. don't be ridiculous. it takes far *less* effort and time to print from a full-page bitmap than to traverse a display-list for complex graphics. *** FLAME OFF *** >The same memory non-constraints apply to the ST. It is possible to >get surprisingly complex output by banding in real time. These same if you are doing *simple* page output, you can get by with display-lists (i.e. no full-page bitmap). however, it is possible to break this mechanism. for example, full-page bitmap graphics are not possible. this is obvious by the fact that a bitmap is memory, and if the memory is not available, you can't create the bitmap. true, for text-only, or text with VDI primitives that can be collected and processed via display list, you don't need a full-page bitmap. GSS VDI/CGI printer drivers work this way. (remember that GSS wrote the original VDI for DRI.) if you need large bitmaps, you are screwed. also, in a display-list engine, the time to process the the image increases exponentially with the complexity of the data, rather than linearly as with a full-page bitmap. this is because the list must be traversed *many* times to draw the appropriate scanlines of the overlapping primitives. it gets somewhat less than elegant. display-list engines also need memory/tempfiles for storing the display-list and the pass bands. with memory becoming virtually free, why not give the people something they can truly use, rather than an incomplete tool? i'd hate to pay alot of $$ for a high-quality output device that didn't do all i wanted/needed. -- jdm -- John D. Miller, Graphic Software Systems, Inc. Beaverton, OR --
fouts@orville.UUCP (02/13/87)
Wait a minute, before we all cover our selves with napalm and light matches: the (speed) relationship between traverse a display list and blast a bit map is not a strict ordering. In part it depends on what you are measuring. One set of measurements is the device's ability to draw the page from the description. It is always true that it is faster to print a bitmap then to print a display list using this measurement, because all raster printout ends up being print the bit map, which means that print the display list requires translate the display list to a bit map and print it. Since translate takes a positive amount of time, it takes longer. However, it is sometimes more interesting to measure how long it takes to print a page from the point of view of a device (such as the ST) which has to transmit the page to be printed. In this case, communications costs have to be included. There are some cases where sending a postscript description to a slow interpretter can take less time per page than sending bitmaps, and some where it can't. It depends on the relitive speeds of the interpretter and the communications channel, and the degree of complexity of the image. Sometimes the complexity wins for the display list, because the amount of information is small compared to a bit map, so that communication time dominates; but sometimes it loses, because the effort to translate is large compared to both.
jdm@gssc.UUCP (02/16/87)
i firmly recommend a VDI-like interface between the atari (or other computer,
for that matter) and the laser printer, over PostScript (which is really a
forth-like, interpreted programming language) or bit-blasting with the
host computer maintaining the page bitmap.
this addresses the communications speed issue, the device-independence issue,
and the bitmap-handling issue. (bitmaps are read/written in a device-
independent format.)
my previous posting regarding the virtues of a full-page bitmap (and some
additional for offscreen bitmaps) and the drawbacks of display-list processing
addressed the *internal* operation of the printer - i had always assumed that
a VDI-based machine such as the atari would talk VDI to the printer. (no
flames please - programs that talk directly to the screen will only get screen
resolution ala screen dump the same way mac users get screen resolutions from
macpaint.)
if it is not too late, i would like to recommend Bitstream (TM) outline fonts
for the laser printer over *anything* else, as their font model is *much* more
robust than, say Adobe's (read PostScript). in addition, they have somewhere
around 1000 fonts today and have a target of over 2500, where Adobe has less
than two dozen - a number of which have flaws. (just print a few characters
at really big sizes so you can see them with the untrained eye.)
in any case, i would hate to see atari go with PostScript. it is soooo
sloooooowwww. i wonder why? i mean, just because it uses full-length ascii
strings as input to it's interpreter? and just because all numbers are
internally floating-point? (ah - visions of BASIC!!). PostScript is an
interesting academic excercise, but *not* a viable peripheral interface. but
then again, i guess you can fly a barn door if you have a big enough engine.
just not very well.
--
-- jdm
in real life: John D. Miller, Graphic Software Systems, Inc., Beaverton OR
...!{tektronix!verdix}!sequent!gssc!jdmbraner@batcomputer.UUCP (02/18/87)
[] My understanding of the rumors is that the Atari laser printer will have no internal RAM, and of course neither Postscript nor ANY driver built-in. That's to make it cheap. Since the ST has that super-fast DMA port, there's no problem driving the printer hardware directly. The ST will be tied up while you print, though (even if you have a multi-tasking OS, running the laser printer would take up most of the ST's processing power). Inside the ST you can then have any driving software you want. With enough RAM you can have a full-blown bitmap, otherwise do some tricks... This flexibility may end up being a big advantage. I won't be surprised, though, if somebody will come out with a "black-box" stand-alone hardware device (with 2 Meg RAM!) to drive the printer with. - Moshe Braner
mugc@utecfb.Toronto.Edu (ModemUserGroupChairman) (02/22/87)
[]
Regarding the RAM-less, driver-less laser printer:
I think a 520ST minus the graphics, sound, ACIAs and
disk-controller chips could serve as a nice and cheap (for Atari)
controller for the printer. This would save Atari the need to design a
controller for the printer. This "520ST" RAM could be increased by
piggybacking a small ram-board to the main board (no space problems
here), and a 32081 FPU could be attached to the cart-port.
Software could be downloadable to this beast so you would not
be tied up to one formatting program. Fonts could be similarly
downloaded (some could be in rom), and finally, if you had nothing
better to do, you could compute the nth decimal place of PI on the
controller :-)
I wonder if this would be economically feasible for Atari.
--
Anees Munshi @ University of Toronto
Engineering Comp. Facility
{ihnp4|decvax|utzoo|utcsri}!utecfa!utecfb!munshi
Reality is so much better!t68@nikhefh.UUCP (03/14/87)
At Hannover I saw the Atari laser printer. It was announced as a 8 pages per minute printer. In a report from the computer show in Vegas I read something about 30 or more pages per minute. Was the person who mentioned this mistaken, or is this not the same printer ? ...Alex ??.... T68@NIKHEFH.UUCP ( Jos Vermaseren )
sansom@trwrb.UUCP (Richard Sansom) (03/16/87)
In article <261@nikhefh.UUCP> t68@nikhefh.UUCP (Jos Vermaseren) writes: >At Hannover I saw the Atari laser printer. >It was announced as a 8 pages per minute printer. >In a report from the computer show in Vegas I read >something about 30 or more pages per minute... Either you are mistaken (about the 30 ppm) or Atari is about to wrap up the desktop publishing market! Seriously, I think 8 ppm is closer to the mark since our site's Talaris can only print 24 ppm. -Rich -- //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ /// Richard E. Sansom TRW Electronics & Defense Sector \\\ \\\ {decvax,ucbvax,ihnp4}!trwrb!sansom Redondo Beach, CA /// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
leavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) (03/17/87)
in article <261@nikhefh.UUCP>, t68@nikhefh.UUCP (Jos Vermaseren) says: > > At Hannover I saw the Atari laser printer. > It was announced as a 8 pages per minute printer. > In a report from the computer show in Vegas I read > something about 30 or more pages per minute. Was the person > who mentioned this mistaken, or is this not the same printer ? > ...Alex ??.... The 8 pages a minute figure is correct. I've never even _heard_ of a laser printer that'll do 30 pages a minute... --alex @ Atari BIX:alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006 "How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all."
turner@imagen.UUCP (D'arc Angel) (03/17/87)
in article <667@atari.UUCP>, leavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) says:
+---------------------------------------------------------
+
+ in article <261@nikhefh.UUCP>, t68@nikhefh.UUCP (Jos Vermaseren) says:
++
++ At Hannover I saw the Atari laser printer.
++ It was announced as a 8 pages per minute printer.
+ The 8 pages a minute figure is correct. I've never even _heard_ of a laser
+ printer that'll do 30 pages a minute...
what is it, you can't resist a chance to show your ignorance ? come
over some time i'll show you laser printer running close to 100
pages a minute (yes 100 pages/min)
+
+ --alex @ Atari
+
+ BIX:alexl. GEnie: ALEXLEAVENS AtariCorp: 408-745-2006
+
+ "How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all."
+---------------------------------------------------------
--
---------------
C'est la vie, C'est la guerre, C'est la pomme de terre
Mail: Imagen Corp. 2650 San Tomas Expressway Santa Clara, CA 95052-8101
UUCP: ...{decvax,ucbvax}!decwrl!imagen!turner AT&T: (408) 986-9400ali@rocky.STANFORD.EDU (Ali Ozer) (03/18/87)
In article <667@atari.UUCP> leavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) writes: > The 8 pages a minute figure is correct. I've never even _heard_ of a laser >printer that'll do 30 pages a minute... We have several laser printers capable of printing at 100 pages/minute here! I'm not sure what their real names are, but they were built by Xerox in mid 70s. (We know them as "dover" printers.) They do go down once in a while, and they do cost a lot of operate, but, when they're printing, they're flying! And I'm sure there are other laser printers out there capable of doing 30 pages/minute... Ali Ozer, ali@rocky.stanford.edu
cs3c3cg@maccs.UUCP (Ray ) (03/19/87)
In article <667@atari.UUCP> leavens@atari.UUCP (Alex Leavens) writes: >in article <261@nikhefh.UUCP>, t68@nikhefh.UUCP (Jos Vermaseren) says: >> >> At Hannover I saw the Atari laser printer. >> It was announced as a 8 pages per minute printer. >> In a report from the computer show in Vegas I read >> something about 30 or more pages per minute. Was the person >> who mentioned this mistaken, or is this not the same printer ? >> ...Alex ??.... > > The 8 pages a minute figure is correct. I've never even _heard_ of a laser >printer that'll do 30 pages a minute... > Oh yeah, The IBM 3800 Laser printer prints at 2 1/2 pages a second!!! thats 150 pages a minute!!! Now before any of you in netland start salavating, there is a catch, the price, a cool $1M (at least that is what I was told) :-) :-) Ray Wong
870646c@aucs.UUCP ('Barry Comer') (12/01/88)
I guess that my orginal message got trashed, so here it is again.
For Sale:
1 - Atari SLM804 Laser Printer-printer has less than 300 pages printed
on it since new. This printer includes all
orginal packing and manuals and is in perfect
condition. I have used this printer in my own
home and not in a business enviorment. This
printer sells for $3000.00 CDN new, I am
asking $1800.00 CDN for it. Reason for selling
"I need the money for school"(what a drag!).
If interested I can be reached at 1-(902)-542-9909 until Dec. 10.
and at 1-(902)-466-5345 after Dec. 10. Please leave a message with your
phone number.
later
Barry Comer