[comp.sys.atari.st] The ST as a PC or a Mac

01659@AECLCR.BITNET (Greg Csullog) (05/15/89)

Several times,  seemingly anti-ST types have marvelled at the fact
that ST users are infatuated with software/hardware that lets  the
ST become a PC or a Mac.  Somehow,  they feel that the ability  to
run like another system means that ST users are unhappy about  the
ST being an ST. Not so!

PC in ST's clothing:  I purchased PC Ditto to use on my ST at work
for  two  reasons.  First,  it  was next to impossible  to  buy  a
computer unless it was IBM-PC compatible.  A user had to bare  his
soul to justify not buying a PC. Therefore, if I could say that my
ST could run PC software I could buy the machine. Second, I had to
use a PC for about a year (acquired to do some contract work)  and
ocassionally  I  had to go back and do some work using  dBASE  and
Word  Perfect (my award winner for the most inappropriately  named
software  on earth).  All I did was uninstall  these  applications
from  the PC and put them on my ST.  Then,  when I had to do  work
related  to previous PC based jobs,  I could get it  done  without
leaving my ST.  Now,  I have abandoned Word Perfect in favour of a
word processor made for humans (Word Writer) and I bought dbMAN to
handle  any dBASE work.  All I use PC Ditto for is to  run  Norton
Utilities to re-pack files. Had PC Ditto-II been out, I could have
kept using dBASE on the ST and forgotten about dbMAN since I  made
the  switch for speed reasons.  (Oh yes,  I also use PC  Ditto  to
teach  unskilled users the difference between an MS  DOS  command-
line interface and the GEM interface on the ST; students turn pale
at the thought of dealing with DOS instead of GEM).

Mac  in  ST's clothing:  Just like ST  enthusiasts  at  work,  Mac
enthusiasts ran up against a brick wall when trying to justify not
buying a PC.  Now there are quite a few Macs on site (115 Macs  as
compared to 60 - 70 STs).  Two persons in my work group have Macs;
they  went that route because of great software (better  than  was
available on the ST ) and user friendliness. Since I support users
in the work group,  I acquired Magic Sac and then Spectre to learn
the ins and outs of being a Mac.  Now I have HYPERCARD and  EXCEL.
However,  when I do spreadsheets,  I prefer the LOTUS /  interface
instead of the mouse so I create sheets in the ST program LDW  and
I import them to EXCEL for final graphing.

So,  while emulation has given me a lot,  I still return to the ST
when I want to be most productive.  Emulation allows me to use the
best  of the other guy's systems and the best of my ST,  all  with
the same keyboard. Yeah, I get hyped up on PC Ditto II and Spectre
GCR  because they open up lots of possibilities for me and my  ST.
But, that does not mean I do not get the most out of my ST.

One last note.  I understand that the Mac program called "II in  a
Mac" lets the Mac run Apple II software. Schools that have lots of
Apple II software are apparently interested since they can  bridge
the sofware gap with Apple II emulation on a Mac.  I was also told
that "II on a Mac" runs under Spectre.  That means you can turn an
ST into a Mac that turns into an Apple II.  No doubt,  some hacker
has  a  code to let the Apple II run  Commodore  64  codes.  Think
about that one for awhile!

c60c-3ds@e260-4d.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami) (05/16/89)

In article <8905151535.AA13997@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> 01659@AECLCR.BITNET (Greg Csullog) writes:
>One last note.  I understand that the Mac program called "II in  a
>Mac" lets the Mac run Apple II software. Schools that have lots of
>Apple II software are apparently interested since they can  bridge
>the sofware gap with Apple II emulation on a Mac.  I was also told
>that "II on a Mac" runs under Spectre.  That means you can turn an
>ST into a Mac that turns into an Apple II.  No doubt,  some hacker
>has  a  code to let the Apple II run  Commodore  64  codes.  Think
>about that one for awhile!

Does anyone know the status of Xformer by Darek Mihocka.  It has Atari
8-bit simulation (including some interface for an 8-bitter drive).
It was supposed to get Apple// and Commodore 64 emulation as well.

If this emulator ever gets totally finished, you can have a II in a
Mac in a ST, or II in a ST.  Like wow man.


         John Kawakami              |        imakawaK nhoJ
   c60c-3ds@web.berkeley.edu        |    pauL_is_deaD@walrusvaX

clf3678@ultb.UUCP (C.L. Freemesser) (05/17/89)

>Does anyone know the status of Xformer by Darek Mihocka.  It has Atari
>8-bit simulation (including some interface for an 8-bitter drive).
>It was supposed to get Apple// and Commodore 64 emulation as well.
>
>If this emulator ever gets totally finished, you can have a II in a
>Mac in a ST, or II in a ST.  Like wow man.
>
>
>         John Kawakami              |        imakawaK nhoJ
>   c60c-3ds@web.berkeley.edu        |    pauL_is_deaD@walrusvaX

I talked to Bob Puff today (8-bit guru and Derek Mihocka's helper), 
and he informed me that version 2.5 is out.  This version has speed of
over 50% (or so).  From what I gathered, he also fixed the disk I/O.
Version 2.3 had virtual disks (which I HATE).  2.5 allows you to use
an ST drive straight away, thus eliminating virtual drives altogether.
Don't take my word for it though.  The conversation was a little
garbled (even though he lives 2 miles away).

Derek discontinued any work on the Apple II and Commie 64 emulators
some time ago.  Lack of interest and lack of worthwhileness (is that a
word?).

=cf=

kirkenda@psueea.uucp (Steve Kirkendall) (05/18/89)

In article <24455@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-3ds@e260-4d.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami) writes:
>
>Does anyone know the status of Xformer by Darek Mihocka.  It has Atari
>8-bit simulation (including some interface for an 8-bitter drive).
>It was supposed to get Apple// and Commodore 64 emulation as well.
>
>If this emulator ever gets totally finished, you can have a II in a
>Mac in a ST, or II in a ST.  Like wow man.

Let me see if I have this straight.  The ST can emulate...

	* An ST (of course)
	* A Macintosh (black-and-white models only)
	* An IBM PC
	* An Atari 8-bit
	* An Apple ][ (running under the Atari 8-bit emulator)
	* A CPM machine
	* A Commodore 64 (I'm not sure about this one...)
	* A UNIX machine (via MINIX)

What's left?  Is anybody working on a CRAY-XMP emulator yet?  Oh, wait, that's
a UNIX machine now.  The VIC-20?  That was kinda superceded by the 64.  Ummm...
Amiga?  Anybody got an Amiga emulator?  Or a Nintendo? The programmable
calculators have been done already...

	-- Steve Kirkendall
	   ...uunet!tektronix!psu-cs!kirkenda

ajy2208%ritcv@cs.rit.edu (05/18/89)

The latest version of the Xformer do not support the Commodore 64 and 
Apple II emulation modes (is that any big loss though?????).  But from
what I've been reading, you'll be able to emulate the Apple II with the
'II in a Mac' program running on Spectre..

A Cray emulator?  Hmm, all you need is 10 tons of Air conditioning 
equipment..  :) 
__________________________________________________________________   ** ** **
| Albert Yarusso        | Rochester Institute of Technology      |   ** ** **  
| ajy2208@ritvax.bitnet | Computer Science (Don't use a Sun too  |   ** ** **
| ajy2208.ritcv.rit.edu | long -- you might get a Sunburn).      |  **  **  **
| "God does not play dice with the universe." -- Albert Einstein | **   **   ** 
|________________________________________________________________| Atari Rules!

NETOPRHM@NCSUVM.BITNET (Hal Meeks) (05/23/89)

Path: ncsuvm!psuvm.bitnet!psuvax1!rutgers!sun-barr!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!tektronix!psueea!psueea.uucp!kirkenda
Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st
Subject: Re: The ST as a PC or a Mac
Message-ID: <1212@psueea.UUCP>
Date: 18 May 89 00:57:24 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Portland State University; Portland OR
Reply-To: kirkenda@jove.cs.pdx.edu (Steve Kirkendall)
Sender: news@psueea.UUCP
References: <8905151535.AA13997@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> <24455@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>
Lines: 27

In article <24455@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60c-3ds@e260-4d.berkeley.edu (John Kawakami) writes:
>
>Does anyone know the status of Xformer by Darek Mihocka.  It has Atari
>8-bit simulation (including some interface for an 8-bitter drive).
>It was supposed to get Apple// and Commodore 64 emulation as well.
>
>If this emulator ever gets totally finished, you can have a II in a
>Mac in a ST, or II in a ST.  Like wow man.

and Steve Kirkendall writes:
 >>Let me see if I have this straight.  The ST can emulate...

       >> * An ST (of course)
       >> * A Macintosh (black-and-white models only)
       >> * An IBM PC
       >> * An Atari 8-bit
       >> * An Apple ][ (running under the Atari 8-bit emulator)
       Not exactly something I'd boast about.
       >> * A CPM machine
       Wow! Jerry Pournelle would love to hear this!
       >> * A Commodore 64 (I'm not sure about this one...)
       Nope. It's DOA.
       >> * A UNIX machine (via MINIX)
       Minix does not equal Unix. It's a nice learning tool, but
       nothing like AUX or Commodore's AMIX.

>What's left?  Is anybody working on a CRAY-XMP emulator yet?  Oh, wait, that's
> UNIX machine now.  The VIC-20?  That was kinda superceded by the 64.  Ummm...
>Amiga?  Anybody got an Amiga emulator?  Or a Nintendo? The programmable
>calculators have been done already...

Any time you start seeing a lot of emulators popping up for a machine, there
is the risk that the emulators can be more popular than the native OS. "Gee..
I can buy this box that emulate _all_ this stuff. Let's see, I'll buy Word for
my Mac emulation, Lotus 123 for my PC..." Guess who loses? Native ST
developers. And the machine starts to die, because of the consumer that walks
into a store, looks at what is available for the ST, and then looks at what's
available for Amigas, Mac's and PC's. Guess what kind of machine they will
end up buying? The one that runs the software they want to run, without having
to buy emulators.

All these emulations aren't something to boast about. It indicates that
the software end of the machine using it's native OS is severely lacking, and
people are trying to make up for that.

I bought an Amiga (no flames please, I read this group with the best
intentions) and fully expected to buy a bridgecard (PC on a card). I also
expected to buy a Mac emulator when it became available. Well, guess what.
It's a year later, and a Mac emulator is available, at a very reasonable
cost. I still don't have a bridgecard, and it's looking very likely that
I won't be buying the Mac emulator. I can do everything I need to do with
the software I presently own for my machine.

This is be taken as an example, not as an argument of Amiga > ST. If someone
reads it as such, reread my posting and think about what I am saying.

--hal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Hal Meeks                 "Things have changed, things will change,
 netoprhm@ncsuvm.bitnet     and it breaks down."
 hgm@ncsuvx.ncsu.edu        The Past Revisted 4/88