HEIMBIG@WSUVM1.BITNET (Bruce Heimbigner) (06/17/88)
an update to info on deskjet. Yes, the ink is water solubable but even
if you get very wet the characters don't just wash away, but they do run
The remains readable tho. I'm not sure it this will acceptable for envelopes
even tho HP intended to use the deskjet for envelopes since there is a
envelope loader. I've heard (third hand) that HP is working on the problem
its just a matter of the right chemistry
Bye
Bruce Heimbigner
Email: Snail mail:
HEIMBIG@WSUVM1.bitnet N.W. 324 True Street
Pullman WA 99163-3347 (USA)Robert.Lisowski@rubbs1.FIDONET.ORG (Robert Lisowski) (08/19/88)
For the benefit of all of the people who are thinking about getting
a DeskJet, but are unsure of compatibility, I offer the following:
If your software supports a LaserJet
It will work with a DeskJet
(in most cases--slower)
I own (happily, I might add) a DeskJet, and use it for everything.
I used to use an Epson FX-86e, and I have had no trouble finding
drivers (mostly LaserJet ones) to use with ALL of my previously
purchased programs. DTP, CAD, WP, Drawing (art) programs, ASCII
text, etc. ALL work just fine with this printer. The only factor
you may want to consider is speed (it's about 1/2 to 1/4 as fast
as a LaserJet), and possibly the ink's water-solubility, but HP
assures me that they are developing a an ink that is more permanent.
I hope I have helped some people clear up the compatibility issue.
At a mail order price of around $725.00, It's perfect for me--that's
all I can say!
Rob
--
Robert Lisowski - via FidoNet node 1:107/330
UUCP: ...!rutgers!rubbs1!Robert.Lisowski
ARPA: Robert.Lisowski@rubbs1.FIDONET.ORG
\...!rutgers!rubbs1!Robert.Lisowskirokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) (08/23/88)
> For the benefit of all of the people who are thinking about getting > a DeskJet, but are unsure of compatibility, I offer the following: > If your software supports a LaserJet > It will work with a DeskJet > (in most cases--slower) Make sure, though, that what it supports is a LaserJet and not a LaserJet Plus. The Plus adds support for downloaded fonts and a bunch of other things that the DeskJet does not do, at least not in the same way. Also, demand a separate DeskJet driver from your software vendor; the puppies are popular enough. Why? Because there are a bunch of tricks you can do to make the DeskJet faster, maybe up to a factor of two or more faster, that you wouldn't do for the original LaserJet. Oh, everything above I've said about the Plus goes for the Series II as well. And I'm not convinced that even the original LaserJet doesn't have some features that the DeskJet doesn't do right. Good luck; it's a fun little printer, that's for sure! -tom
eberger@godot.psc.edu (Ed Berger) (08/23/88)
The REAL question, for those of us without hands-on-experience with the
HP deskjet is:
Does it produce a full page of 300dpi graphics, when a 'plain' laserjet
would scream out of memory and spit out a page with approx 1inch of graphics?
A laserjet is fairly useless for graphics because of this...
I don't think the deskjet should do this, as it can control the linefeed
and wait for more data, and continue printing.... without feeding the same
sheet through again, and again, and again.
Of course, its slower.
'Ed
:Wrokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) (08/23/88)
Yep, the DeskJet can print an entire page of 300 dpi graphics, but slowly. You see, in graphics mode it seldom uses the full printhead; typically it only uses five or seven jets on each pass. And there is enough memory in the basic box to buffer an entire row (50 pixels high by 2550 pixels wide is only 16K.) The expansion RAM helps this situation exactly *zilch*; apparently the expansion RAM is only good for downloading soft fonts. These soft fonts have some rather interesting (distressing) restrictions themselves. Still a fun printer, I just wish to hell they had done it correctly instead of the half-assed way they did. Hell, all they had to do was take the LaserJet Plus guts and make them drive the ink-jets. Maybe they could have changed a few things to add full-page graphics. But now we have another set of incompatible drivers, font cartridges, etc. But there's no understanding the corporate mind. Don't tell me there were technical reasons. That's bullshit. Just wait until someone comes out with a DeskJet emulation cartridge for the DeskJet, just to print those damned graphics faster. (It's possible. Probably even easy.) Or perhaps an HP LaserJet Plus or Series II emulation cartridge, which is what the printer should have been. -tom
wes@obie.UUCP (Barnacle Wes) (08/24/88)
In article <25.230BF78B@rubbs1.FIDONET.ORG>, Robert.Lisowski@rubbs1.FIDONET.ORG (Robert Lisowski) writes: > For the benefit of all of the people who are thinking about getting > a DeskJet, but are unsure of compatibility, I offer the following: [recites DeskJet <-> LaserJet compatibility] > ................................................ The only factor > you may want to consider is speed (it's about 1/2 to 1/4 as fast > as a LaserJet), Don't let the speed issue stop you! It takes about 10-12 minutes for the computer to lay out a 300x300 dpi page for the LaserJet, and about 40 seconds for the LJ to print it. If the DeskJet is one half that speed, you will go from 12-1/2 minutes overall to 13 minutes overall - trivial. Gee, HP makes some nice equipment, don't they? -- {hpda, uwmcsd1}!sp7040!obie!wes "Happiness lies in being priviledged to work hard for long hours in doing whatever you think is worth doing." -- Robert A. Heinlein --
rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) (08/26/88)
> Don't let the speed issue stop you! It takes about 10-12 minutes for > the computer to lay out a 300x300 dpi page for the LaserJet Ten to twelve minutes to lay out a single page? Using what? I can't believe anything is that slow, on any machine! If something takes a minute a page, I get mighty upset; I expect most things to run at at least four pages a minute. A simple eighty page report would take thirteen *hours* to print at 10 minutes a page! What gives? -tom
tainter@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Tainter) (08/27/88)
In article <3725@polya.Stanford.EDU> rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) writes: >> Don't let the speed issue stop you! It takes about 10-12 minutes for >> the computer to lay out a 300x300 dpi page for the LaserJet >Ten to twelve minutes to lay out a single page? Using what? >I can't believe anything is that slow, on any machine! If >something takes a minute a page, I get mighty upset; I expect >most things to run at at least four pages a minute. A simple >eighty page report would take thirteen *hours* to print at >10 minutes a page! What gives? I think you are talking about text dumps to the printer. These it does quite quickly. This discussion is about graphics. Ever used a Macintosh laser printer, I got very used to 45-50 minutes for a moderately simple graphic. >-tom --j.a.tainter
neff@hpvcla.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (08/27/88)
> The REAL question, for those of us without hands-on-experience with the > HP deskjet is: > Does it produce a full page of 300dpi graphics, when a 'plain' laserjet >would scream out of memory and spit out a page with approx 1inch of graphics? >A laserjet is fairly useless for graphics because of this... > I don't think the deskjet should do this, as it can control the linefeed >and wait for more data, and continue printing.... without feeding the same >sheet through again, and again, and again. The DeskJet certainly can do a full page of graphics. The fact that DeskJet does not store a page of graphics (requiring 1 Meg of RAM) yet can still do a full page of 300DPI graphics is one reason the DeskJet is cheaper than a LaserJet. It is also the fundamental reason a DeskJet is not 100% LaserJet compatable. LaserJet drivers that send out graphics in a serial fashion going down the page work fine with the DeskJet. Other LaserJet drivers (esp. desktop publishing) which randomly sends graphics out on the page will not work. One common LaserJet "graphics compaction" trick involves continuously twiddling the graphics margins. This trick generally degrades DeskJet performance since whenever graphics margins change the previous graphics must be printed. This can result in printing only a couple of nozzles per pass. The DeskJet supports 2 different data compaction modes that the LaserJet does not support so please, DeskJet users, encourage software vendors to write DeskJet drivers. I wrote the DeskJet Epson emulation cartridge and landscape cartridge (I had help) firmware and am working on future inkjet technology printers. I just started reading this newsgroup so I have not participated in previous conversations about the DeskJet. If people have any questions about the DeskJet drop me a line, I know the printer inside and out. You will probably hear more from me in other discussions about the DeskJet. One other factor about the DeskJet. It was designed to be primarily a text oriented device since that is what most people use their printers for. Hence certain tradeoffs were made to improve text performance at the expense of graphics. A page of 300DPI graphics typically takes about 5 minutes. Although this is slower than I would like, I have found many applications take this long to generate a page of 300DPI graphics anyway. I must confess ignorance, however, as to the performance of the atari ST applications and driver. As a previous poster mentioned, the DeskJet ink is smears badly if you get the print wet. This is in my optinion, the most negative feature of the DeskJet. Despite this, I still use DeskJets at work and home and find this to not be a real big problem. Fortunately, waterfast ink is the #1 priority of our division that makes the ink cartriges. Much better ink should be available "soon", but I can't give dates or make promises. Dave Neff att!hpfcla!hpvcla!neff (206) 254-8110 x2358
neff@hpvcla.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (08/27/88)
I have already responded to Tom personally, but I would like to clarify a few points. The DeskJet was designed to be a high quality high speed TEXT printer with high quality graphics capability for occasional graphics needs. Certain design tradeoffs were made which intentionally optimized for text applications over graphics applications -- most significantly the 16K input buffer. If I could replace the 16K input buffer with a 4K buffer and user the 12K for graphics I could double the graphics performance. But I can't ... Atari users tend to be graphics oriented. If the DeskJet meets your needs, despite its slow graphics performance, great. If we added a page of RAM, our cost advantage over laser printers would go down the tubes, and who would buy a DeskJet? As for font/download incompatabilies between the LaserJet Plus/II and DeskJet, the DeskJet uses a 600DPI horizontal resolution with no consecutive dots being fired in order to get optimal text quality. LaserJet fonts (in a DeskJet) just do not look as good as the tweeked DeskJet fonts. Moreover, DeskJet fonts use data compaction to put more fonts in less ROM, the LaserJet does not. This results in font cartridges for DeskJet that cost about 1/3 as those of the LaserJet and gives beter print quality than the LaserJet fonts would. Dave Neff att!hpfcla!hpvcla!neff
rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) (08/27/88)
>>> Don't let the speed issue stop you! It takes about 10-12 minutes for >>> the computer to lay out a 300x300 dpi page for the LaserJet >>Ten to twelve minutes to lay out a single page? Using what? >I think you are talking about text dumps to the printer. These it does >quite quickly. This discussion is about graphics. >Ever used a Macintosh laser printer, I got very used to 45-50 minutes >for a moderately simple graphic. Again, using what? 45 minutes a page? That is simply unusable. Even full-page 300 dpi graphics shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes a page, absolute maximum. I repeat, *what* *software* gives you such poor performance? -tom
srmaster@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Stephen Reis Master) (08/28/88)
In article <3725@polya.Stanford.EDU> rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) writes: >> Don't let the speed issue stop you! It takes about 10-12 minutes for >> the computer to lay out a 300x300 dpi page for the LaserJet >Ten to twelve minutes to lay out a single page? Using what? >I can't believe anything is that slow, on any machine! If >-tom 10-12 minutes is perfectly reasonable for, say, a 512 by 512 greyscale image being sent to a LaserWriter via PostScript. The dithering, etc. just takes a while.
engst@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) (08/28/88)
In article <3737@polya.Stanford.EDU> rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) writes: >>I think you are talking about text dumps to the printer. These it does >>quite quickly. This discussion is about graphics. >>Ever used a Macintosh laser printer, I got very used to 45-50 minutes >>for a moderately simple graphic. > >Again, using what? 45 minutes a page? That is simply unusable. >Even full-page 300 dpi graphics shouldn't take more than a couple >of minutes a page, absolute maximum. I repeat, *what* *software* >gives you such poor performance? I have waited close to an hour for a page of CricketDraw graphics with lots of neat Postscript effects on them. It wasn't pleasant waiting (I was under a deadline) but it did look quite nice when it finally came out. Definately not a speed demon, Postscript. I think some company makes some sort of speedup program that is quite a lot faster than Postscript. But I'm talking about page description languages, not the speed of the laser printer. I think the LaserWriter is rated at 6 pages/minute. What is the DeskJet rated at (whatever the comparison factor might be)? Also, does anyone know if a DeskJet can be easily connected to a Mac with good drivers to take advantage of its capabilities (I don't really want to emulate an Epson FX-80 too often any more)? Adam -- Adam C. Engst engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu pv9y@cornella.bitnet "If it's not interactive, it's not fun."
tainter@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Tainter) (08/28/88)
In article <3737@polya.Stanford.EDU> rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) writes: >>Ever used a Macintosh laser printer, I got very used to 45-50 minutes >>for a moderately simple graphic. >Again, using what? 45 minutes a page? That is simply unusable. >Even full-page 300 dpi graphics shouldn't take more than a couple >of minutes a page, absolute maximum. I repeat, *what* *software* >gives you such poor performance? Adobe postscript, running on the laser printer (68000). >-tom --j.a.tainter
fry@husc8.HARVARD.EDU (David Fry) (08/28/88)
In article <6131@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> engst@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu (Adam C. Engst) writes: >In article <3737@polya.Stanford.EDU> rokicki@polya.Stanford.EDU (Tomas G. Rokicki) writes: >>Again, using what? 45 minutes a page? That is simply unusable. >>Even full-page 300 dpi graphics shouldn't take more than a couple >>of minutes a page, absolute maximum. I repeat, *what* *software* >>gives you such poor performance? > >I have waited close to an hour for a page of CricketDraw graphics with lots >of neat Postscript effects on them. It wasn't pleasant waiting (I was under >a deadline) but it did look quite nice when it finally came out. Definately >not a speed demon, Postscript. While PS is not the fastest language in the world, it's very easy for people and programs using it to slow it down unneccesarily with font changes and rotations that could be avoided with better planning. I have no idea if this is what Cricket does, but some programs will draw a string of text in font A, draw a string in font B, and then go back to font A, etc. It's better to do all your work in font A and then do all the work in font B, etc, saving a lot of calculations. I know people yell about PS's speed a lot, but the LaserWriter can print a full page 256 grayscale halftone image in a few minutes, so it can't be all bad. David Fry fry@huma1.harvard.EDU Department of Mathematics fry@harvma1.bitnet Harvard University ...!harvard!huma1!fry Cambridge, MA 02138
Thomas_E_Zerucha@cup.portal.com (08/29/88)
So what about the SLM804 (or whatever number) the Atari Laser printer that uses the ST's DMA Bus? I have seen it do 5 second screen dumps. But what does it do with something like EasyDraw or Timeworks DTP? Do things which use GDOS to drive the laserprinter go any faster (Atari could sell a lot more systems if their ad went "What takes 45 minutes on brand X takes only 2 minutes on an ST". But does anyone have experience?
Mark_Peter_Cookson@cup.portal.com (08/29/88)
Well, if Apple would use a newer version of Postscript (I think they do in the new series) things would be a lot better. Postscript 44 is supposed to be greased lightning compared to Postscript 38 (which was what was in the Laser Writer Plus, I think). Mark
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (09/05/88)
>Moreover, DeskJet fonts use data compaction to put more fonts in less >ROM, the LaserJet does not. This results in font cartridges for >DeskJet that cost about 1/3 as those of the LaserJet and gives >beter print quality than the LaserJet fonts would. Then why not fix the Laser Jet to use the same compaction and make the font cartridges cost 1/3 as much for it too? (I wonder why we never bought a font cartridge for our LaserJet, other than getting TeX working first?) Doug McDonald
HEIMBIG@WSUVM1.BITNET (Bruce Heimbigner) (09/06/88)
I have a Deskjet and Mega-2, for text output the speed is as reported
about 2 to 4 pages per minute, quality is great. Using Logistix spreadsheet
(laserjet driver) a graph took about 15 minutes and was distorted
but i have no idea whether this has the deskjet fault or Logistix fault.
I use the Deskjet at work frequently with PC and pc graphics programs
and use laserjet as the driver and so far everything has worked fine.
I just order Supercharged Easy-Draw from Migraph, and a Deskjet specific
driver (they have laserjet drivers too). Since this is a GDOS driver it
should work with other GDOS program (ie timeworks PP, wordup).
The Migraph salesman said a single copy of a one page graphic often
is faster with the Deskjet/ DJ driver than Laserjet/ Laserjet driver.
I'll post to net how the new driver works when it comes in.
By the way it's true a Mac SE and laserwriter with any of the
publishing/drawing programs takes about 30 (sometime 1 hour) minutes
per page. The main time consuming factor is down loading fonts over
appletalk. Apple has 'solved' this problem with a new laser printer
that keeps all the fonts you could want on a hard disc in the printer.
If you have about $30,000 (??) you can buy one of these yourself.
I have a question for Dave Neff (or others):
After buying my DeskJet I received a publication from HP claiming not only
deskjet drivers for the ST but also PaintJet drivers. Dave are these
GDOS drivers or something else. Does anyone have a PaintJet printer
in use with an ST? The PaintJet 150*150 resolution with color output
could also be a really hot combo with the ST.
Any comment?
Bye
Bruce Heimbigner
Email: Snail mail:
HEIMBIG@WSUVM1.bitnet N.W. 324 True Street
Pullman WA 99163-3347 (USA)borton@uva.UUCP (Chris Borton) (09/09/88)
In article <8555@cup.portal.com> Mark_Peter_Cookson@cup.portal.com writes: >Well, if Apple would use a newer version of Postscript (I think they do in the >new series) things would be a lot better. Postscript 44 is supposed to be >greased lightning compared to Postscript 38 (which was what was in the Laser >Writer Plus, I think). Bingo! LaserWriter II series (NT and NX) have PostScript 44. They also have 2M RAM, more than the LW {Plus}. Thus they are speedier. I haven't had a chance to do any real comparisons here; anyone care to comment? Also note that later versions of the LaserPrep and LaserWriter driver have vastly improved performance. -cbb -- Chris Borton borton%uva@mcvax.{nl,bitnet,uucp} Rotary Scholar, University of Amsterdam CS
neff@hpvcla.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (09/10/88)
> I have a question for Dave Neff (or others): > After buying my DeskJet I received a publication from HP claiming not only > deskjet drivers for the ST but also PaintJet drivers. Dave are these > GDOS drivers or something else. Does anyone have a PaintJet printer > in use with an ST? The PaintJet 150*150 resolution with color output > could also be a really hot combo with the ST. > Any comment? What sort of publication from HP? I know that here at Vancouver we did a Microsoft Windows driver for the DeskJet but we never have done an ST driver. This must be some third party driver. I will check a bit more. I know little about PaintJet drivers (those are made 1000 miles away in San Diego) so I can't comment on that. By the way, PaintJet is 180*180 resolution and does make nice looking output. No idea on ST support. I gather various DeskJet drivers for both STs and Amigas are being written or have recently been written but I don't know a thing about them. I'll see what I can find out. Dave Neff att!hpfcla!hpvcla!neff
#FJMORA@WMMVS.BITNET (10/27/88)
Hello, I previous digest, Jeffrey Long writes: >Forgive me if this is a question that doesn't need to be asked because the >answer is so obvious, but I've never used anything except a Gemini-10X >printer with my 1040ST and now I'm getting an HP Deskjet for it. How can >I fix it so that the "Install Printer" option from the desktop will >allow me to do screen dumps to this printer? In other words, will I only >be able to use this printer with programs like WordPerfect that have custom >HP Deskjet drivers or will a standard graphics screen dump "alt/Help" >work? I am getting the Epson emulation cartridge with the printer, so will >that mean that I can install the Deskjet as a standard Dot-matrix printer >using the "Install Printer" routine? Any tips and/or hard learned advice >on this matter would be greatly appreciated! > Thanks in advance for any replies netlanders! The HP-Deskjet drivers I use are HPMONDUMP and HPCOLDUMP published by Migraph. You run either HPMONDUMP if you have a monochrome monitor or HPCOLDUMP if you have a color one, and then the <Alt><Help> keys produce a graphic dump on the Deskjet. The "Install Printer" accessory is useless except if you use the Deskjet with the serial port. Note that a very nice accessory called JetSet is available on GEnie. It allows you to control a number of parameters without fiddling with the keypad of the Deskjet (e.g., char/in., char height, lines/in., etc.). Download that baby and send $10 to the author (yes, this is a shareware), he deserves it. (#include "disclaimer.h"). Something else on GEnie: there are drivers for the most popular word processors, including the one for 1st Word Plus that I wrote (sorry, no graphics using 1st Word Plus, which supports only Epson-like graphic codes, and not HPGL). I don't want money for my 1st Word Plus driver (:-) but please do something for me: send a hate mail to Hewlett-Packard because they promised to come out with a non water-soluble ink for the Deskjet, and still nothing! I like to have listings that can withstand a cup of coffee... So use the free space on your Deskjet registration card! (:-) Regards, Frederic Mora BITNET: The College of William and Mary #fjmora%wmmvs.bitnet Dept. of Computer Science #fjmora@cs.wm.edu Williamsburg, VA. 23185 USA ************************************************************************** * * * "Was uns nicht toetet, macht uns staerker." * * Friedrich Nietzsche * * What does not kill us makes us stronger * * * ************************************************************************** - Come, come, little line eater, I won't harm you (evil grin)... - Come, come, little line eater, I won't harm you (evil grin)... - Come, come, little line eater, I won't harm you (evil grin)...
avogel@ms.uky.edu (Andrew Lee Vogel) (07/04/89)
Could someone send me, or post, the cable fix for the deskjet (+) printer. For instance, the person who reported the destruction of his parallel port said such cables were available in Germany. That is, if it is not a difficult or time consuming job. Thanks.