uace0@uhnix2.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman) (07/22/89)
Well, after having waited with bated breath for the CMI accelerator board, I
would like to share my experiences with the rest of the net...
*** FLAME ON ***
When I first called the folks at CMI (after their first press release), I was
glad to hear that they had a product that not only SOUNDED good, but was
ready to be released very shortly. So much for first impressions.
As a faithful developer for the ST, I decided that any boost to compile or
assemble times would be great. Little did I know that I was in for a shock!
Double Click Software is a strong supporter of the local user's group (HASTE),
and I thought it would be nice to show the accl. at our July meeting, and
according to CMI, they would deliver by the first week of July. Great, I
thought, the meeting isn't until the next week.
CMI missed the first deadline, but promised that the board would go out in the
second week. This is not unusual (missing a release date) so I waited. By
the middle of the second week, I called ~rCMI to confirm everything was on
schedule for me to receive my board. "No problem, we will ship by Friday."
Friday July 14 rolls around, and I call CMI. "Your board has been shipped
second day (blue label) UPS. You should get it Tuesday." Finally, I thought.
Tuesday rolled around, and no delivery. The people at work were getting tired
of my ranting "Come on U.P.S. lady. (We have a female carrier)" So, I thought,
maybe it will get here Wednesday, you know how things are.
By Wednesday, July 19, at 5 pm, when the UPS lady made her final pickup, I
had *NO* accelerator board. So, I called CMI. I spoke with Mark something-er-
other (Lilliane Carter's boss -she has been pleasent when I spoke to her), and
he said, "All boards were shipped today." Sure, I thought, sure. "But I was
told they shipped Friday." "They didn't and I was the ***hole who told Lilliane
to tell everyone they did." "How do I know you shipped today?" "You don't, and
I don't care if you don't believe me." Hmmph!
Friday rolls around, and after a delay from UPS, I got the board. Looks nice,
although they used the Amiga box cover (no big deal). Instructions, all parts,
can't wait to get home and install it.
Begin the trouble. The directions are clear enough if you want to do
a piggy-back method, but my ST already had a socket for the 68000, so now what?
According to the manual, you have to cut 3 pins for the piggy-back, and use
"fly-wires" to connect the board to the ST. Do I need this for the socket
installation? No answer in the manual. Trial and error, showed that they
were not needed.
Easy, I install the board in my 68000 socket and turn the baby on. Everything
looks ok. Familiar bootup pattern (I didn't install the FAST ROM option just
yet), and then the desktop. But wait! My hard disk didn't boot. Ok, dig out
the floppy drive and boot off that. Nope, sorry, the disk drive}i didn't
boot either. Just a desktop and two drive icons. When I try opening drive A,
I get (output device is not responding). Hmmm.
I remove the accel. board, pop in the 68000, everything boots. Pop in the
accel. hard disk and floppy drive don't read data. Pop out the 68000/16,
plug that directly into the motherboard, all works ok. Plug in the accel.
board, nothing.
Point of story: I have a $300 paper weight.
So, I figure, might as well try installig in my other ST (using piggy-back).
Be very careful! Almost all the diagrams in the manual show the ROMs and
68000 oriented 180 degrees from how you would normally view them in the ST.
(Pay attention to your chip orientation). Installation took about 1 1/2
hours, including doing the FAST ROM hack.
Turn on the machine. Same thing. So, now I have two paper weights.
Not only that, but my ST (the second one), no longer has a 68000 chip in it.
I cut the sucker out, so I can put a socket in. Today, I am buying another
68000, and a socket so I can have my ST back in working order.
I don't know about you, but when someone ships a product like this, I expect
it to work. Instead, I get a desktop, but no access to the drives. A lot of
good that does me. Not to mention that the board itslelf has jumpers, and
hacked TTL chips (some cut and piggy-backed, another so the pins are twisted
so that it can fit in their board).
If you want beta-testers for your product, then don't make us pay for it!
Now I have to spend more money just to get my ST back into original condition!
Now what? I guess I'll buy a FAST-16 board, since it looks like it will do
the job (I know someone who has a prototype and may eventually manufacture
it and distribute it -- I learned this AFTER I ordered my CMI board).
Sorry for the long post. I'm pissed! I get lied to, and then I get a product
that doesn't work. And they have my money!}i
*** FLAME OFF ***
The opinions expressed are my own, and do not necessarily reflect Double Click
Software (but I guarantee no one else here will buy one of these).
See you at the Dallas WOA show. Please drop by our booth (unless you are CMI).
- Michael B. Vederman
--
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do_it(c_programmers); : message such as:
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University Atari Computer Enthusiasts : University of Houston UACEdlm@druwy.ATT.COM (Dan Moore) (07/24/89)
in article <812@uhnix2.uh.edu>, uace0@uhnix2.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman) says: > Well, after having waited with bated breath for the CMI accelerator board, I > would like to share my experiences with the rest of the net... > > *** FLAME ON *** > [ long description of CMI's shipping problems (they didn't ship when > they said they did) and the failure of the accelerator in 2 different > STs. ] > *** FLAME OFF *** I'm not surprised that CMI's accelerator didn't work in your STs. I've seen several beta copies of accelerators for the ST, all of them are flakey in at least some STs. Some are flakey in all STs. I have seen the CMI accelerator work in an ST, I've also seen it fail. This is due to the design of the ST, Atari saved you (the buyer) money by building machines that just barely run. It takes very little to push an ST out of spec so that it will fail. To make things even more interesting there are "many" different STs, different revs of motherboards, different brands of chips (with different bugs in some of the chips). This means there really isn't an "average" ST that you can design hardware for. And even if the board works in the ST you may not be able to talk to the outside world (hard disk/floppy disk) since most ST device drivers use timing loops. Fortunately many of the loops are several times longer than they need to be, so it doesn't matter if they run faster. When I was at dP (back in the bad old days) we tested the Translator One with a lot of different STs and drives (about 15 machines between the office and the beta-testers). We thought all the problems were solved but when we shipped we found that it wouldn't work with a large fraction of the STs in the world. I suspect that CMI (and the other builders ST accelerators) have the same problem, it worked in all the STs they tested with but that has very little to do with working in the real world. Hopefully CMI, and the other accelerator companies, will be willing to give purchasers a 100% refund if the board fails. There is one ST hardware company that refuses to give a refund if their disk enhancement fails to work in the purchasers ST, hopefully the accelerator companies won't adopt the same attitude. Personally I would spend a LOT of time thinking before deciding to buy an accelerator for the ST. There is a good chance that it may not work in any given ST. Also you may not gain very much, some accelerators only give you a 5 to 10% boost, others can give a 50 to 100% boost. Dan Moore AT&T Bell Labs Denver dlm@druwy.ATT.COM
ftw@masscomp.UUCP (Farrell Woods) (07/25/89)
In article <812@uhnix2.uh.edu> uace0@uhnix2.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman) writes: [stuff about late deliveries and angry phone calls deleted] >Begin the trouble. The directions are clear enough if you want to do >a piggy-back method, but my ST already had a socket for the 68000, so now what? >According to the manual, you have to cut 3 pins for the piggy-back, and use >"fly-wires" to connect the board to the ST. Do I need this for the socket >installation? No answer in the manual. Trial and error, showed that they >were not needed. Trial and error (according to your testimony), shows that you may still be wrong about this. I would ask if you tried calling them to get a bit of support for the installation, but it sounds as though you may have burned a bridge or two while waiting for delivery. [board appears to not work in first machine] >So, I figure, might as well try installig in my other ST (using piggy-back). >Be very careful! Almost all the diagrams in the manual show the ROMs and >68000 oriented 180 degrees from how you would normally view them in the ST. >(Pay attention to your chip orientation). Installation took about 1 1/2 >hours, including doing the FAST ROM hack. So now you've made TWO fairly major hardware changes to another machine, after the first machine appeared to not work. This is a bit hasty, no? >Turn on the machine. Same thing. So, now I have two paper weights. >Not only that, but my ST (the second one), no longer has a 68000 chip in it. >I cut the sucker out, so I can put a socket in. Today, I am buying another >68000, and a socket so I can have my ST back in working order. You did follow their instructions on the second machine, right? That is, you lifted the few pins and ran a few wires, rather than replacing the ship as you did on the first machine. Look, I don't intend to pick on you specifically, nor am I in bed with CMI. Your posting is rather one-sided: you don't mention if you tried at all to get the CMI folks to help you. If they can't or won't help you get the thing running, or refuse to refund your money, then post a letter here, write to START, etc. They won't last long if they treat their customers badly. -- Farrell T. Woods Voice: (508) 392-2471 Concurrent Computer Corporation Domain: ftw@westford.ccur.com 1 Technology Way uucp: {backbones}!masscomp!ftw Westford, MA 01886 "I can't drive...fifty-five!"
stevef@well.UUCP (Steven Robert Fordyce) (07/27/89)
In article 18478 of comp.sys.atari.st Michael B Vederman writes: > Well, after having waited with bated breath for the CMI accelerator board, I > would like to share my experiences with the rest of the net... [Stuff deleted] > CMI missed the first deadline, but promised that the board would go out in the > second week. This is not unusual (missing a release date) so I waited. By > the middle of the second week, I called CMI to confirm everything was on > schedule for me to receive my board. "No problem, we will ship by Friday." > > Friday July 14 rolls around, and I call CMI. "Your board has been shipped > second day (blue label) UPS. You should get it Tuesday." Finally, I thought. > Tuesday rolled around, and no delivery. The people at work were getting tired > of my ranting "Come on U.P.S. lady. (We have a female carrier)" So, I > thought, maybe it will get here Wednesday, you know how things are. > > By Wednesday, July 19, at 5 pm, when the UPS lady made her final pickup, I > had *NO* accelerator board. So, I called CMI. I spoke with Mark > something-er-other (Lilliane Carter's boss -she has been pleasent when I > spoke to her), and he said, "All boards were shipped today." Sure, I > thought, sure. "But I was told they shipped Friday." "They didn't and I > was the ***hole who told Lilliane to tell everyone they did." "How do I > know you shipped today?" "You don't, and I don't care if you don't believe > me." Hmmph! Mr Vederman was never intentionally misled -- we would have nothing to gain by doing so. For our part in the confusion we apologize. There was a delay in shipping the boards and for that I also apologize. We all did everything we could to get the product out on schedule, and I think it is safe to say we were just as anxious to get it out as anyone was to receive it, if not much more so. But we are human, and I am very sorry about any inconvenience the delay caused anyone. The boards, are now shipping, and have been for a couple of weeks. > Friday rolls around, and after a delay from UPS, I got the board. Looks nice, > although they used the Amiga box cover (no big deal). Instructions, all > parts, can't wait to get home and install it. > > Begin the trouble. The directions are clear enough if you want to do > a piggy-back method, but my ST already had a socket for the 68000, so now what? > According to the manual, you have to cut 3 pins for the piggy-back, and use > "fly-wires" to connect the board to the ST. Do I need this for the socket > installation? No answer in the manual. Trial and error, showed that they > were not needed. Actually, there are instructions for installing our product in an ST with the processor removed, and they are different from the piggy-back method and there are some fly-wires necessary. Mr Vederman went on to say that that neither his disk drive nor his hard disk would work with our board. This is cause he didn't put in the fly-wires as instructed in the manual. We did our best to make the manual clear and understandable, but we're human. I don't believe it's possible to make the manual clear and concise, and answer everyone's questions. That's why we have a full time customer service person. I've found Lilliane to be quite conscientious in helping customers with their problems. Installing our board, or in fact any product inside an ST, is not for the fainthearted. Unless they are comfortable with both circuit boards and soldering irons, we recommend our customers have their dealers install our product. Starting today, for people who buy an accelerator directly from us and send their computer into us, we will install our board for free. For those who break their ST trying to install our board themselves, we'll fix it for a flat $50, including return shipping. Mr. Vederman did call us, and Lilliane explained his trouble over the phone. And he got his board working. However, he wasn't able to get FAST-ROM to work for reasons we weren't able to determine over the phone. (The problem may well have been a defective part on our board. We do fully test all of our boards before we ship them, but still a small percentage fail in the field.) We offered to fix his machine with our board in it if he sent it to us (he didn't want to do this because he didn't want to lose the use of his computer -- quite understandable), or to send him a new board, or to refund his money. He chose the latter. Of course we are disappointed and are confident a new board would have solved his problem, but it was his choice. We've never had any allusions that we could please everyone. > Point of story: I have a $300 paper weight. No one is ever stuck with one our products. Within 15 days of getting any of our products, it may be returned for an reason for a full refund. And all of our products also carry a six month warranty. We guarantee our products to work and will do what ever it takes to see that they do, or refund the customers money. > - Michael B. Vederman Steven R Fordyce tektronix!sequent!calvin!stevef Creative Microsystems, Inc., 19552 SW 90th Court, Tualatin, Oregon 97062 For customer service call Lilliane at (503)691-2552.
uace0@uhnix2.uh.edu (Michael B. Vederman) (08/01/89)
In article <12871@well.UUCP> stevef@well.UUCP (Steven Robert Fordyce) writes: >In article 18478 of comp.sys.atari.st Michael B Vederman writes: >> Well, after having waited with bated breath for the CMI accelerator board, I >> would like to share my experiences with the rest of the net... > [Stuff deleted] > >Actually, there are instructions for installing our product in an ST with >the processor removed, and they are different from the piggy-back method >and there are some fly-wires necessary. Mr Vederman went on to say that >that neither his disk drive nor his hard disk would work with our board. >This is cause he didn't put in the fly-wires as instructed in the manual. > As I stated in my second post, the instructions are not clear on the installation with the processor removed. Believe me, I have done *plenty* of documentation (for work and for DCS) to know what was there. There is no description of what to do for the non-piggy-back method, but it is brushed aside, with no mention during the piggy-back method description such as 'Do this for the non-piggy-back method also.' That little line would make everything very clear. >We did our best to make the manual clear and understandable, but we're human. You did your best to get the product out quickly, that is evident on the skimpy manual. No doubt you wanted to beat the rush of boards now coming onto the market. >Starting today, for people who buy an accelerator directly from us and send >their computer into us, we will install our board for free. For those who >break their ST trying to install our board themselves, we'll fix it for a >flat $50, including return shipping. Believe me, I'm sending my computer in. Very decent offer, I must say... >Mr. Vederman did call us, and Lilliane explained his trouble over the >phone. And he got his board working. However, he wasn't able to get >FAST-ROM to work for reasons we weren't able to determine over the phone. >(The problem may well have been a defective part on our board. We do fully >test all of our boards before we ship them, but still a small percentage >fail in the field.) We offered to fix his machine with our board in it >if he sent it to us (he didn't want to do this because he didn't want to >lose the use of his computer -- quite understandable), or to send him a new >board, or to refund his money. He chose the latter. Of course we are >disappointed and are confident a new board would have solved his problem, >but it was his choice. We've never had any allusions that we could please >everyone. 1) FAST ROM wouldn't work, true. 2) They did offer to send another board. 3) Misunderstanding of point three, they never offered to fix my computer, but rather asked for me to send in my only working ST to determine why it wouldn't work with their board. I have no problem sending in my computer (which is currently dead anyway) for them to work on. 4) I am not a difficult person to please. And as such, will give them another chance to get it right, when they get my computer and their defective board. >> Point of story: I have a $300 paper weight. > >No one is ever stuck with one our products. Within 15 days of getting any >of our products, it may be returned for an reason for a full refund. And all >of our products also carry a six month warranty. We guarantee our products >to work and will do what ever it takes to see that they do, or refund the >customers money. If they still have that offer after I get my ST back (with their new board) and I am not impressed, I will use that policy to its extent. >Steven R Fordyce tektronix!sequent!calvin!stevef >Creative Microsystems, Inc., 19552 SW 90th Court, Tualatin, Oregon 97062 >For customer service call Lilliane at (503)691-2552. My intentions are never to publicly slam a company, but this time I had it (up to here :-). I have no intentions of posting flames on the net just to slam a company without cause. I never have before, and hopefully I won't have to again in the future. I was very excited about getting the board at first, as can be seen by my very first post, before I even got the board! Lilliane was helpful and courteous, although certain other people at CMI could certainly take a lesson from her (which did not help the situation). So now, we wait. When I get my ST back, we'll see what's what, and I will post results of true benchmarks, including the SIEVE, and whet/dhrystone timing. - michael b. vederman I speak for myself. In no way do my opinions reflect Double Click Software. -- for (;;) : Use ATARINET, send an interactive do_it(c_programmers); : message such as: : Tell UH-INFO at UHUPVM1 ATARINET HELP University Atari Computer Enthusiasts : University of Houston UACE
dclemans@mentor.com (Dave Clemans @ APD x1292) (08/08/89)
I can report a success story at installing the CMI accelator board. This was done to an original style 520st system (board rev. E) using the socket method (i.e., I didn't piggyback ontop of the 68000 chip). You do need flywires, as the previous messages have stated; you need the bus control & clock signals generated from the circuitry on the board, and not the ones directly from the 16mhz 68000 chip. One question... the red fly-wire, documentated as connected to R4 on the 520st, and un-connected on the Mega-st... what is its purpose? At least for me, the board seems to work regardless of whether or not the red wire is connected. My copy of the st schematics (which admittedly might not match the motherboard revision I have) shows R4 as being in the midi data current loop circuitry. A note on the manual... the way I read it it implies that you get 16mhz operation by closing the jumper, and 8mhz by leaving it open. However on my system it's just the opposite; 8mhz when the jumper is closed, 16mhz when it's open. A couple of final questions? What are the recommended parts to use the fastrom sockets directly on the board? What is the definition of the "expansion" pins? dgc