V61@DHDURZ1.BITNET (Ronald Lamprecht) (08/26/89)
Just returned from the Atari fair at Duesseldorf. Several working TTs that have been definitly faster than a ST (Atari says by a factor of 4): -68030, 16MHz - VME slot (A24,D16) - shared RAM for video and processor with an access time of 250ns - tiny ugly box with the old ST keyboard with it's famous function keys Price: appr. DM 5700 -- including 30MB Harddisk and color monitor (They said it wouldn't be sold without the Harddisk or the color monitor -- no chance for a cheap upgrade) Seeing this I called it a TTT --- namely a Tic Tac Toe machine: You will never loose something with respect to the old ST, but you have no chance to win a jackpot with it. Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. A (A24,D16) VME slot that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be worth an full 32bit VME slot ! A speedupfactor of 4 that's a shame and I'm quite sure the TT will be the slowest 68030 machine that will ever exist. I wouldn't call the TTT a workstation -- and I won't buy it. Remainig the question what will be my NeXT computer ? Or should I upgrade my 'ST' with transputers or a 68030 with fast 32 bit RAM ? I don't need TOS compatibility because I'm using Minix. Sorry if my impression of the TT is quite negative, but I'm disappointed because I thought it could be my next machine. Bitnet: V61@DHDURZ1 Ronald Lamprecht UUCP: ...!unido!DHDURZ1.bitnet!V61 Theoretische Physik ARPAnet: V61%DHDURZ1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (Heidelberg, West Germany)
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (08/27/89)
OK, don't believe everything you see or hear :-) :-0 I've been demoing the TT today and (prob.) tomorrow with Smalltalk80. So please let me correct some mistakes and official :-) romours. In article <8908251936.AA19454@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> V61@DHDURZ1.BITNET (Ronald Lamprecht) writes: >-68030, 16MHz >- VME slot (A24,D16) >- shared RAM for video and processor with an access time of 250ns >- tiny ugly box with the old ST keyboard with it's famous function keys >Price: appr. DM 5700 -- including 30MB Harddisk and color monitor >(They said it wouldn't be sold without the Harddisk or the color monitor -- > no chance for a cheap upgrade) Wrong. What you saw was the 'complete' low-cost version. Certainly there will be packages without harddrive. However the monitor is somewhat special (close to VGA but not close enough) so good ones like NEC multisync will work but result in a bad picture with thick borders around. It RUNS the old ST harddisks so you can get it cheaper than 6500DM incl.VAT None at Atari is willing to give final statements about that though. Leonard Tramiel said to me: 'Germain sales will determine the packages (in Germany)'. So I'll stay optimistic. >Seeing this I called it a TTT --- namely a Tic Tac Toe machine: You will never >loose something with respect to the old ST, but you have no chance to win >a jackpot with it. Ouch, Amiga owner? >Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors >the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. A (A24,D16) VME slot >that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be >worth an full 32bit VME slot ! A speedupfactor of 4 that's a shame and I'm >quite sure the TT will be the slowest 68030 machine that will ever exist. >I wouldn't call the TTT a workstation -- and I won't buy it. Tstststs, turn your mind on before you talk! 1. The processor runs at 2MHz with VME bus only but at full 16Mhz else. 2. The speed factor is 3times(my minimal guess) < 4times < 5times (Leonard). So do some calculations.... Smalltalk80 for instance runs at 40% Dorado on the ST. It runs at 116% Dorado on the MacII (CX) with the same software! So if the TT is 4 times faster than the ST it will run at 160% Dorado and thats a bringer. I estimate this machine as equivalent to the Max II (CX). 3. The TT uses this so called 'Slow Ram' for the lower 2meg only. The real memory expansion (who uses a workstation with 2meg anyway?) takes place at 16meg++ addresses and is called "Fast Ram". This uses full and sophisticated caching with 4*64bit burst filling. The application can decide (loader flag) where the binaries should lie and where Malloc() calls should take place. So my impressions (I AM NOT PAID BY ATARI, BUT I LIKE TO TAKE ONE :-) It has a *UGLY* design (at least). It is as fast as a MacII (at least) It is *VERY* TOS compatible. Well, I'd say the Software is not TOS compatible. Calamus for instance runs and about 90% of professional software too. Expect problems with alot of games. It has nice color graphics (forgot howmany, but *ALOT*) and a nice high resolution monochrome mode (16??@6??). It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price of comparable competitors here in Germany). Besides: - the drive will be 1.44 meg although they show 720 right now - the keyboard will be better. It's just a mega keyboard on the fair. - the monitors will be better. They took VGA monitors for the fair. It will be in the shops sometimes between Christmas and early spring. Nobody dared to name an exact date though :-) If you'll find to take a ride to Duesseldorf you'll enjoy the fair. There are alot of nice presentations. Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp Disclaimer: I speak for myself only and not for Atari or my boss. I may have misunderstood some things and perhaps some of the 'facts' are wrong or will change. But the machine is real and not bad either.
kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) (08/29/89)
V61@DHDURZ1.BITNET (Ronald Lamprecht) writes: | Just returned from the Atari fair at Duesseldorf. Several working TTs that have | been definitly faster than a ST (Atari says by a factor of 4): Atari GERMANY says by a factor of 4. They misinterpreted the announcement flyer which we sent them (and which I helped edit). The fact is that the _raw memory bandwidth_ for _dual purpose RAM_ is 4 times greater on the TT. Actual program execution can be TEN TIMES faster (MUCH more for FP intensive programs, with a math coprocessor and software that supports it). Also, an option for RAM which is not shared by video will be available, so you can expect even faster program execution from that memory. | - tiny ugly box Well, that's been a point of some contention here at Sunnyvale, too ;-) Some people don't like the new look. I find it very attractive. | (They said it wouldn't be sold without the Harddisk or the color monitor -- | no chance for a cheap upgrade) If Atari Germany is doing that, I agree, they're being silly. I have heard that we will, in fact, be selling "base model" TTs with no monitor or HD. | Seeing this I called it a TTT --- namely a Tic Tac Toe machine: You will never | loose something with respect to the old ST, but you have no chance to win | a jackpot with it. Never win WRT the ST??? Yeah, well, my ST has been getting a lot less use since I got the prototype TT in my office. It's MUCH faster (and the 640x480 resolution is much nicer looking, too). I understand that they were showing Calamus at Dusseldorf, and that it was turning quite a few heads with the speed. | Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors | the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. Whaaaa??? That statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense. | A (A24,D16) VME slot | that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be | worth an full 32bit VME slot ! Yes, and you'd have to pay for it, too. Atari is not abandoning "Power without the Price." I'm sure that more souped-up TT versions will be available which will accept full size VME cards. But that capability doesn't come cheap (or in as small a footprint as the TTs shown in Dusseldorf). | Sorry if my impression of the TT is quite negative, but I'm disappointed | because I thought it could be my next machine. I think you'd feel much different if you had a chance to test drive a TT. They really are quite nice (and I only have a prototype!). -- ||| Ken Badertscher (ames!atari!kbad) ||| Atari R&D System Software Engine / | \ #include <disclaimer>
mikew@wheeler.wrcr.unr.edu (Mike Whitbeck) (08/29/89)
I can't wait for the US release! Company policy now says all desktops hafta ethernet or appletalk by 1990-91 or they get scrapped including my beloved ST. Hurry mit der TT!
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) (08/30/89)
[I appreciate the information, It would be nice if Atari Inc would dump
the official press release here as well.]
So onto some questions on your comments :
In article <1572@laura.UUCP> atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) writes:
->Wrong.
->What you saw was the 'complete' low-cost version.
->Certainly there will be packages without harddrive. However the monitor
->is somewhat special (close to VGA but not close enough) so good ones
->like NEC multisync will work but result in a bad picture with thick
->borders around.
Hmmm, the whole graphics capability question is really foggy so far. Some
specific questions :
1) What is the exact resolution (X by Y by n) and what, if any
are the limitations on what resolutions can be used in what
situations.
2) You say the "multisync" will work, does it *require* a multisync
or can you just use one?
3) If you use a multisync, can the hardware generate different
video modes?
->It RUNS the old ST harddisks so you can get it cheaper than 6500DM incl.VAT
->None at Atari is willing to give final statements about that though.
->Leonard Tramiel said to me: 'Germain sales will determine the packages
->(in Germany)'. So I'll stay optimistic.
Does this mean it has a "DMA" port like the 520/1040/MegaX ? Does it have
a "real" SCSI port as well? What kind of through put can be expected from
the hard disk interfaces? Can it do DMA and access > 4Meg ?
->>Actually I would call it a wastage of highly sophisticated microprocessors
->>the way an 68030 is slowed down to 2MHz Busfrequency. A (A24,D16) VME slot
->>that would have been something useful for the ST, but an 68030 should be
->>worth an full 32bit VME slot ! A speedupfactor of 4 that's a shame and I'm
->>quite sure the TT will be the slowest 68030 machine that will ever exist.
->>I wouldn't call the TTT a workstation -- and I won't buy it.
->
->Tstststs, turn your mind on before you talk!
->
->1. The processor runs at 2MHz with VME bus only but at full 16Mhz else.
This is damning with faint praise! What does Atari envision will be plugged
into this silly slot that runs at 2Mhz? Certainly not memory expansion
boards, how much memory can this thing be expanded to internally. Is the
VME slot the _only_ way to expand it, or does it have a Mega compatible
expansion connector as well?
->2. The speed factor is 3times(my minimal guess) < 4times < 5times (Leonard).
->So do some calculations.... Smalltalk80 for instance runs at 40% Dorado on
->the ST. It runs at 116% Dorado on the MacII (CX) with the same software!
->So if the TT is 4 times faster than the ST it will run at 160% Dorado and
->thats a bringer. I estimate this machine as equivalent to the Max II (CX).
Your calclations seem to leave out factors (like hard disk speed, memory
speed) but maybe a more interesting number would be comparing it to the
Amiga 2500 with a 68030 processor (25Mhz from GVP) since it seems like
they will cost about the same.
->3. The TT uses this so called 'Slow Ram' for the lower 2meg only. The real
->memory expansion (who uses a workstation with 2meg anyway?) takes place
->at 16meg++ addresses and is called "Fast Ram". This uses full and sophisticated
->caching with 4*64bit burst filling.
->The application can decide (loader flag) where the binaries should lie and
->where Malloc() calls should take place.
What is "slow ram" ? I thought all of the Atari ram was "Fast" ram in that
the processor always had full access to it. What is "Fast" ram in your comment
and how much can one add (I'm guessing it can't sit on that VME slot). Also
do you have any idea how an "old" application will deal with the loader flag
business? Does the TT run TOS 1.4 or 1.x? How does one set up the MMU in the
'030 (if at all ?)
Does it have a Blitter ?
->It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price
->of comparable competitors here in Germany).
How does it compare to the Amiga 2500 in Germany? I know A2000s there are
pretty darn cheap.
->Besides:
->- the drive will be 1.44 meg although they show 720 right now
->- the keyboard will be better. It's just a mega keyboard on the fair.
->- the monitors will be better. They took VGA monitors for the fair.
->It will be in the shops sometimes between Christmas and early spring.
->Nobody dared to name an exact date though :-)
Well, what you describe sounds like what the ATW had when it was "demoed"
at Comdex nearly two years ago. I'm sure like stock funds, "past history
is no guarantee of future performance." But given the two red flags :
A) "The shipper dropped it before it got here."
B) "The production machine will have X, Y, and Z rather than this."
My _guess_ is that it will be more like _next_ Christmas or maybe the one
after that before any true customer will have the option of buying one.
Added to the fact that it looks like Atari might be able to sell as many
handheld game machines that they can produce, the smart money would be in
building the sure thing first, the workstation second. That might push it
out by 6 to 18 months as well.
--Chuck McManis
uucp: {anywhere}!sun!cmcmanis BIX: cmcmanis ARPAnet: cmcmanis@sun.com
These opinions are my own and no one elses, but you knew that didn't you.
"If I were driving a Macintosh, I'd have to stop before I could turn the wheel."apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (08/31/89)
cmcmanis%pepper@Sun.COM (Chuck McManis) writes: >Hmmm, the whole graphics capability question is really foggy so far. Here's some really straight scoop about the TT from inside Atari: The video palette has *4* bits per gun for color values. That is, you have a total of 4096 colors: 16 levels each of red, green, and blue. (The ST has a palette of 512 colors: 8 levels for each gun.) Another "color" mode provides 256 levels of grey (actually green), for really fine reproduction of a black-and-white image. This is independent of the resolution: if you're in a 16-color mode, you can pick any 16 levels from the spectrum of 256. (We call this hyper-monochrome: one color, but a lot of it!) There are *6* video modes: the three ST modes (totally compatible), plus 640x480 16-color, plus 320x480 *256* color, plus 1280x960 monochrome. ALL of these modes except the last can be shown on a single monitor. That monitor need not be multisync. It can be a slightly modified VGA monitor, or (of course) the monitor which Atari will sell for the TT. The last mode needs a Viking monitor or something similar. ST high rez (640 x 400 x 2 colors) is not limited to black and white: you can choose any two colors. >Does this mean it has a "DMA" port like the 520/1040/MegaX ? Does it have >a "real" SCSI port as well? What kind of through put can be expected from >the hard disk interfaces? Can it do DMA and access > 4Meg ? Yes, there is a DMA port like on the ST and Mega. Your hard disk will plug right in. You can connect a bootable SH204 and it will boot! There is also an external SCSI port. The SCSI port can access the full 32-bit address space; the ACSI port is limited to 24-bit addresses. The internal hard drive is connected to the SCSI bus. >Is the >VME slot the _only_ way to expand it, or does it have a Mega compatible >expansion connector as well? There are a number of ways to expand the TT: you can add 2MB of dual-purpose (video and CPU) RAM, or 10MB when 4Mbit chips are available. You can add 4MB of REALLY FAST 32-bit nybble-mode RAM (not video-capable), and there's the VME bus. The number 2MHz that's been bandied about needs some explanation: The CPU and memory clock speed is 16MHz. There are four clocks in a bus cycle. For dual-purpose RAM, around half the bus cycles go to the video or refresh. Therefore, the CPU gets around two million MEMORY ACCESSES per second, or 2MHz. There are other architectural details which make it a little faster than that. And remember, each access gets you 32 bits, not 16 as on the ST. Also, since the CPU is allocated half the bus cycles, it isn't ALWAYS postponed by video or refresh: it might try to access the bus just as its turn comes up, and not wait at all. Therefore dual-purpose memory accesses run at MORE THAN 2MHz. "Fast" RAM does not have video taking up any of the cycles, so you don't have to wait for that. It takes 4 or 5 clocks (I think) to set up a fast-RAM access, but "nybble mode" means that the CPU fills its cache in "burst mode" at one cycle per subsequent access. The VME logic introduces one wait state, so a VMEbus access takes 5 clocks. (Your mileage may vary: VME cards vary widely in response time.) But, again, you won't be held off the bus by video. VME in the TT shown in Germany is A24/D16 (24 bits of addess, 16 bits of data). >[programs can load in fast RAM or dual-purpose RAM] By a "loader option" the original poster means "load program off disk" not "load .o files into a .prg file." This is correct: there are flags in the PRG header which control the behavior of Pexec and Malloc. Most program can run in fast RAM -- programs which change the screen base pointer and some other things can't, though. >[RAM on the VME bus] You *can* put memory on the VME bus. The performance penalty is not bad. TOS will recognize that memory and use it for programs if you set it up right. >Does it have a Blitter ? No need for one. The reason for the Blitter is to remove instruction- fetch overhead from memory operations, and with the 68030 on-chip cache, the TT does just fine without it. >>It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price >>of comparable competitors here in Germany). You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly 4x the price! JT's motto is Power Without the Price, and we think we're giving you just that. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (08/31/89)
In article <123947@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> cmcmanis@sun.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes: >So onto some questions on your comments : >In article <1572@laura.UUCP> atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) writes: >->is somewhat special (close to VGA but not close enough) so good ones >->like NEC multisync will work but result in a bad picture with thick >->borders around. >Hmmm, the whole graphics capability question is really foggy so far. Some >specific questions : > 1) What is the exact resolution (X by Y by n) and what, if any > are the limitations on what resolutions can be used in what > situations. > 2) You say the "multisync" will work, does it *require* a multisync > or can you just use one? > 3) If you use a multisync, can the hardware generate different > video modes? The resolutions are (if I remember them right) 1280@960 in monochrome 640@480 in some (2-4?) colors 320@240 in 256 out of 4096 (but I may be wrong regarding the number of colors) Additionaly the old ST resolutions are supported (even the video-ram structure remains the same for this resolutions) >->It RUNS the old ST harddisks so you can get it cheaper than 6500DM incl.VAT >->None at Atari is willing to give final statements about that though. >Does this mean it has a "DMA" port like the 520/1040/MegaX ? Does it have >a "real" SCSI port as well? What kind of through put can be expected from >the hard disk interfaces? Can it do DMA and access > 4Meg ? It HAS ACSI and SCSI interfaces. However I do not know if the SCSI is accessible from the outside (you'll need a flat cable perhaps) but the DMA port is accessible. >This is damning with faint praise! What does Atari envision will be plugged >into this silly slot that runs at 2Mhz? Certainly not memory expansion >boards, how much memory can this thing be expanded to internally. Is the >VME slot the _only_ way to expand it, or does it have a Mega compatible >expansion connector as well? A full 32 bit slot is much more expensive. I'll guess you'll plug in adaptor cards, interfaces, graphics boards, ........... The system is expandable to: 2MB + 6 * 1mb sim === 8mb or 2MB + 6 * 4mb sim === 24mb or any combination of these. That's enough for me. It has no Mega slot as this would be incompatible to old Mega cards. >->2. The speed factor is 3times(my minimal guess) < 4times < 5times (Leonard). >->So do some calculations.... Smalltalk80 for instance runs at 40% Dorado on >Your calclations seem to leave out factors (like hard disk speed, memory >speed) but maybe a more interesting number would be comparing it to the >Amiga 2500 with a 68030 processor (25Mhz from GVP) since it seems like >they will cost about the same. I don't know the 2500. What processor does it use ? Is it compatible to other Amiga software ? I'd compare the TT to a '386 machine or a MacII. In both cases the TT looks pretty good. As for the hard disk.... it's just a matter of money you put in the drive. If you use expensive drives with SCSI then the IO prerformance is good. >->3. The TT uses this so called 'Slow Ram' for the lower 2meg only. The real >->memory expansion (who uses a workstation with 2meg anyway?) takes place >->at 16meg++ addresses and is called "Fast Ram". This uses full and sophisticated >->caching with 4*64bit burst filling. >What is "slow ram" ? I thought all of the Atari ram was "Fast" ram in that >the processor always had full access to it. What is "Fast" ram in your comment >and how much can one add (I'm guessing it can't sit on that VME slot). Also >do you have any idea how an "old" application will deal with the loader flag >business? Does the TT run TOS 1.4 or 1.x? How does one set up the MMU in the >'030 (if at all ?) Well... it is called slow ram because it is shared with the video chips. So the CPU can't access at full speed and the cache cannot use full burst-filling (timing problems as in the MAC). All additional ram is FAST RAM. The loader flag distinguishes the binaries location and the Malloc location. If you'r aplication assumes that both must be consecutive (bad bad bad) then put both in one area. Otherwise the aplication will not notice the use of flags. It uses TOS1.4 for the TT. The MMU is set with 68030 specific instructions (it's on the chip you know). >Does it have a Blitter ? No! A simple blitter like in the ST will not result in speed improvements over a well written 68020 bit-blt code. >->Nobody dared to name an exact date though :-) >Well, what you describe sounds like what the ATW had when it was "demoed" Well, I am pretty sure that it will not be late in the next year. I'll expect to buy one around March. Andreas Toenne ~~~~~ Keep those rumours coming
covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (09/01/89)
There has been a lot of talk about multitasking the ST, but no one has
asked about multitasking on the TT?? My main use of mutlitasking would be in regards
to programming.
I use an Apollo DN4000 (with 19" monochrome monitor) at work. I can have
XX number of windows open simultaneously. I keep various windows open showing
different parts of my code. Very handy to sawp peices of code around.
Now, my question is about using the Moniterm 19" monitor on both the
ST and the TT. I am considering buying the Moniterm 19" monitor for my Mega ST4,
but of course I wouldn't be able to have multiple files opens on the screen,
so it still wouldn't be as nice as my Apollo at work.
But, one, could I use the same Moniterm monitor if I bought the TT??
Two, would the TT allow me to have multiple windows (TOS, of course)
open, like I can do on my Apollo??
These are two important concerns to me. I can NOT justify spending the
$2K on the 19" Moniterm monitor just to use it on my Mega ST4. But, if I KNEW
that I could move it over to the TT, then I might just buy the Moniterm and the
TT.
So, does anyone at Atari *KNOW* if the Moniterm 19" monitor works with
the TT?? The TT has the 1280x960 (same as my Apollo BTW) mode, same as the ST.
Does the TT support multitasking or multiple editing windows??
P.S. These are NOT flames, just real concerns from a hopeful programmer.
(BTW, just how FAST does MWC compile on the TT?? I love the MWC compiler
aand I hope that it works on the TT!!!).
rec
:Henry_Burdett_Messenger@cup.portal.com (09/02/89)
In article 1073.3.7469.4 Mike Whitbeck writes: > I can't wait for the US release! Company policy now says all > desktops hafta ethernet or appletalk by 1990-91 or they get > scrapped including my beloved ST. Hurry mit der TT! Perhaps... but I saw a very interesting device in this month's _Byte_. It's an Ethernet adaptor that plugs into a bidirectional Centronics parallel port (just like the ST has). Now, the software for this box was written for Zenith PC clones (to talk to a Novell network). But we have some real good software folks out in netland working with STs, so... - hbm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henry B. Messenger henry_burdett_messenger@cup.portal.com Digital Equipment Corporation isn't responsible for anything I say on Usenet
laba-1aj@e260-3g.berkeley.edu (09/02/89)
In article <1670@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >>>It is the cheapest workstation of that power around (about 1/2 the price >>>of comparable competitors here in Germany). > >You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare >the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly >4x the price! JT's motto is Power Without the Price, and we think >we're giving you just that. > >============================================ >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt Well, with the NeXT, you get scads of fine software (mathematica!) megabytes of data (websters, bartletts) [what appears to be] a progressive programming environment (objective C and mach) with extended utilities and system software (dispaly PS) and a funky box :-) The T^2 will not be a NeXT killer (and Atari doesn't seem to be promoting it that way) simply because there won't be a common environment (software) that will bring T^2 users together. I don't mean that it won't be a success, just that any type of success Atari has with the T^2 will not be the type of success that NeXT has with it's box. [I don't like the name TT. T^2 (T-squared) is easier on my toungue] & John Kawakami & laba-1aj@web.berkeley.edu &
bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) (09/02/89)
In article <1670@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: > >Does it have a Blitter ? > > No need for one. The reason for the Blitter is to remove instruction- > fetch overhead from memory operations, and with the 68030 on-chip > cache, the TT does just fine without it. This leads me to two questions: how compatible is the TT with the ST in terms of commercial software, say: Flight simulator and PC Ditto I? The second question is, how great a performance improvement does the TT provide over the ST. For example: how much faster does the display replot in Flight simulator; what is the Norton SI rating for PC Ditto I? Inquiring minds want to know!
larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) (09/02/89)
But didn't somebody say that the TT would run both TOS, UNIX and MS-DOS This would give a huge number of aviable programs !!! Does the NeXT have these possibilities !!?? Lars-Erik / ABK-BBS +47 2132659 / ____ ______ Osterud / larserio@ifi.uio.no / /___ / ____________/ _______________________/ ____/ /
liebo@csclea.ncsu.edu (Dr. Stan Liebowitz) (09/02/89)
What you don't get is access to unimportant items like spreadsheets, wordprocessors, databases, games, etc. Read the next news on the net. There was a thread called "bread and butter programs" which seemed to conclude that application software was still 1-2 years away. Besides, when Jobs stops selling those things at a loss, it is going to be really pricy. And display poscript seems to be ungodly slow (from what I read). ------------------------------------------------------- Stan Liebowitz Department of Econ/Business North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27607 try liebo@csclea.ncsu.edu it seems to work, more than I can say for
hase@netmbx.UUCP (Hartmut Semken) (09/02/89)
In article <765@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) writes: >This leads me to two questions: how compatible is the TT with the ST in >terms of commercial software, say: Flight simulator and PC Ditto I? What do You exspect? The TT isn't availeble yet (in large quantities)... And PC Ditto has to fiddle with the hardware a lot. This cannot run unmodified on new hardware. hase -- Hartmut Semken, Lupsteiner Weg 67, 1000 Berlin 37 hase@netmbx.UUCP Dennis had stepped up into the top seat whet its founder had died of a lethal overdose of brick wall, taken while under the influence of a Ferrari and a bottle of tequila. (Douglas Adams; the long dark teatime...)
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) (09/03/89)
Richard Covert, in a thoughtful mood, got to comparing various ST levels
with an Apollo workstation. With the recent discussion of windowing systems,
this brings up the question of whether a TT with UNIX (tm of AT&T) will be
able to run the UNIX side of uw. I think that means either sockets and job
control or some substantial modification. I know, Atari has outgrown the era
of describing features of unannounced products. But Atari people, let us
know when it IS announced, ok? And consider the marketing value of a demo
with the TT running its own application while someone on an ST had 4 windows
open to sessions hosted on the TT. Pass it along to some business types, if
they ever mix with the techies.
Steve J.atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (09/04/89)
In article <765@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) writes: >In article <1670@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >This leads me to two questions: how compatible is the TT with the ST in >terms of commercial software, say: Flight simulator and PC Ditto I? Ugh! You picked some of the most 'dirty' programs I know of. FlightSimulator does not run even on a ST with HyperCache. (16Mhz 68000) This is propably due to some timing loops which run too fast now. PC Ditto heavily depends on the 68000 processor and hardware. I'll be *very* surprised if it runs without problems. I figured out that the TT (T^2 is really nicer :-) is very TOS compatible but some software isn't :-) :-) Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp
jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) (09/05/89)
>> >>You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare >>the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly >>4x the price! JT's motto is Power Without the Price, and we think >>we're giving you just that. >> > >Well, with the NeXT, you get scads of fine software (mathematica!) megabytes >of data (websters, bartletts) [what appears to be] a progressive programming >environment (objective C and mach) with extended utilities and system >software (dispaly PS) and a funky box :-) > How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a great programming environment, plenty of professional applications available, for around $5K without disk. You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit color if you need that. Talk about a funky box, the 3/80 is about the size of a Mega. And again, it's a *Sun*. Anyone who's ever worked with a Sun and SunOS can appreciate that. I'm, typing this article on a 3/60, the older 68020-based Sun, running X-Windows with TWM. It's hard to believe that the Mac II is based on the same 68020 hardware. It's seems *so* much less capable!!! If I ever have the money to buy a 68030 workstation, it'll be a Sun. --- +--------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------------+ | | Polygen Corporation | UUCP: | | Jerry J. Shekhel | Waltham, MA 02254 | {princeton, mit-eddie, | | | (617) 890-2888 | buita, sunne}!polygen!jerry | +--------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------------+
bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) (09/05/89)
In article <542@bogart.UUCP>, jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
: ::
: ::You can say that again. Please, people, remember that when you compare
: ::the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly
: ::4x the price!
:
: How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a
: great programming environment, plenty of professional applications
: available, for around $5K without disk. You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit
: color if you need that.
Hey! What about an 80386 system? You can get a VGA 4Mb sytem with *awesome*
UNIX(TM) System V for less than $4K -with- disk. A 1Mb MSDOS VGA system can
come in under $3K -with- disk.
With this in mind and the "Power without the price" motto, I would expect
the TT to come in below $2K -without- disk (hey - what's the current price
of a Mega 2?).kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) (09/05/89)
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) writes: | Ugh! | You picked some of the most 'dirty' programs I know of. | FlightSimulator does not run even on a ST with HyperCache. (16Mhz 68000) That's interesting, if you're talking about Sub Logic's Flight Simulator, it runs just great on a TT. Incredibly smooth flying, the frame rate is considerably higher than on an ST. Air Warrior (the flight simulator for use on GEnie) works great on TT, too. -- ||| Ken Badertscher (ames!atari!kbad) ||| Atari R&D System Software Engine / | \ #include <disclaimer>
covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) (09/05/89)
In article <542@bogart.UUCP>, jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) writes: > > How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a > great programming environment, plenty of professional applications > available, for around $5K without disk. You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit > color if you need that. Talk about a funky box, the 3/80 is about the > size of a Mega. And again, it's a *Sun*. Anyone who's ever worked with > a Sun and SunOS can appreciate that. > > I'm, typing this article on a 3/60, the older 68020-based Sun, running > X-Windows with TWM. It's hard to believe that the Mac II is based on the > same 68020 hardware. It's seems *so* much less capable!!! If I ever have > the money to buy a 68030 workstation, it'll be a Sun. How about a Sun with TOS windows??? That would be neat!! But seriously, the problem with Apollos and Sun workstations is the cost of software. You can't run down to your favorite SoftwareIzCheap store and buy Sun programs for fourty bucks!! And that is were the ST (and maybe TT) are good. Software is dirt cheap compared to workstations. f o d d e r f o o d richard covert m o r e f o o d er food
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (09/06/89)
In article <542@bogart.UUCP> jerry@bogart.UUCP (Jerry Shekhel) writes: >How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a >great programming environment, plenty of professional applications >available, for around $5K without disk. You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit >color if you need that. Talk about a funky box, the 3/80 is about the >size of a Mega. And again, it's a *Sun*. Anyone who's ever worked with >a Sun and SunOS can appreciate that. Where do I get a Sun 3/80 for 5k ? I want one for that price! Today we got an offer from SUN Germany for a kind of 3/80 with 2*110 meg drives, a streamer box (extern!) and the SUN OS4.0 (they charged it extra with 1000$). The prices (after 30% discount) where 15k$ !!!! So if somewhere in the world I can get the same for 5k + drives then please tell me. Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp I'm the power but I got my price :-)
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (09/06/89)
hase@netmbx.UUCP (Hartmut Semken) writes: >In article <765@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) writes: >>This leads me to two questions: how compatible is the TT with the ST in >>terms of commercial software, say: Flight simulator and PC Ditto I? >What do you expect? Actually, Microsoft Flight Simulator runs just fine. You get a really fast frame rate, and the flying equations are all based on real time so it flies correctly. (With the 68030 cache on, the screen flickers... I assume there's an assumption in the double-buffering code like, "It can't possibly take less than X time to draw a frame," and on the TT it does take less than X.) ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) (09/06/89)
saj@chinet.chi.il.us (Stephen Jacobs) writes: >this brings up the question of whether a TT with UNIX (tm of AT&T) will be >able to run the UNIX side of uw. [...] I know, Atari has outgrown the era >of describing features of unannounced products. The great thing about UNIX is you don't have to worry about features: all we have to say is SVr3.1, and you know what it's got. We've said that a number of times, and here it is again: SVr3.1. ============================================ Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt
dnewton@carroll1.UUCP (Dave Newton) (09/07/89)
In article <767@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) writes: >In article <542@bogart.UUCP>, jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) writes: >: ::the TT with a Next machine, for instance, you're talking about roughly >: How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a >Hey! What about an 80386 system? You can get a VGA 4Mb sytem with *awesome* 80386? You're forgetting a windowing environment. (Although I think that a ISC comes with X) I just think that SUNs and NeXTs are a differnt breed of machine than any IBM compatible.... Plus, a 680x0 will beat the pants off of its respective 80x86 any day o' the week. Begin microprocessor flame war. -- "Life is just a popularity contest, and I didn't get my entry in on time." -David L. Newton David L. Newton (414) 524-7253 dnewton@carroll1.cc.edu =8-) (smiley w/ a mohawk) (414) 524-7343 uunet!marque!carroll1!dnewton
bammi@dsrgsun.ces.cwru.edu (Jwahar R. Bammi) (09/07/89)
In article <1680@atari.UUCP>, apratt@atari (Allan Pratt) writes: >that a number of times, and here it is again: SVr3.1. > is it "pure" SVr3.1 or SVr3.1 with enough "bezerkley" extensions so that one may do useful work (like run X windows), as is usually the case. -- bang: {any internet host}!dsrgsun.ces.CWRU.edu!bammi jwahar r. bammi domain: bammi@dsrgsun.ces.CWRU.edu GEnie: J.Bammi
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (09/07/89)
In article <1678@atari.UUCP> kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) writes: >That's interesting, if you're talking about Sub Logic's Flight Simulator, >it runs just great on a TT. Incredibly smooth flying, the frame rate is >considerably higher than on an ST. That's great news to me. I *love* FSII. But why doesn't it run on HyperCache ? Andreas Toenne .
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (09/08/89)
In article <1680@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >The great thing about UNIX is you don't have to worry about features: >all we have to say is SVr3.1, and you know what it's got. We've said >that a number of times, and here it is again: SVr3.1. Well not exactly. It tells us a lot about it, but there are "enhancements", such as virtual terminals, a windowing shell, extra graphics libraries, TOS emulation under Unix, DOS emulation under Unix, etc. etc. These things are not "official" standard SVR3 but they can be added on top of it without breaking SVID. I'm sure a lot of people would also like to know if any "vendor supplied enhancements" are planned. Vanilla SVR3 is nice for the basics, but it doesn't have any of the "bells and whistles" that are getting more and more common with modern vendor supplied Unixes. >============================================ >Opinions expressed above do not necessarily -- Allan Pratt, Atari Corp. >reflect those of Atari Corp. or anyone else. ...ames!atari!apratt -- David Beckemeyer (david@bdt.UUCP) | "I'll forgive you Dad... If you have Beckemeyer Development Tools | a breath mint." 478 Santa Clara Ave. Oakland, CA 94610 | Bart - "The Simpsons" UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!david |
hase@netmbx.UUCP (Hartmut Semken) (09/10/89)
In article <142@bdt.UUCP> david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) writes: >In article <1680@atari.UUCP> apratt@atari.UUCP (Allan Pratt) writes: >>that a number of times, and here it is again: SVr3.1. > >Well not exactly. It tells us a lot about it, but there are "enhancements", >such as virtual terminals, a windowing shell, extra graphics libraries, TOS >emulation under Unix, DOS emulation under Unix, etc. etc. If we do not get these from Atari, we'll get them from somebody else. The "vanilla" Sys V.3 will do for a start. And if Atari would donate one TT to "Stallman and consortes"... hase -- Hartmut Semken, Lupsteiner Weg 67, 1000 Berlin 37 hase@netmbx.UUCP Dennis had stepped up into the top seat whet its founder had died of a lethal overdose of brick wall, taken while under the influence of a Ferrari and a bottle of tequila. (Douglas Adams; the long dark teatime...)
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (09/11/89)
In article <1585@laura.UUCP> atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) writes: >FlightSimulator does not run even on a ST with HyperCache. (16Mhz 68000) >This is propably due to some timing loops which run too fast now. >PC Ditto heavily depends on the 68000 processor and hardware. I'll be >*very* surprised if it runs without problems. If I remember correctly Sublogic wrote Flight Simulator to load at an absolute address. That is why it breaks when you have any memory hungry programs like caches already loaded. Slapped wrists to Sublogic. > Andreas Toenne > atoenne@unido.uucp +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of ! ! being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with ! ! being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being ! ! told that I am!" - Monty Python ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) (09/13/89)
In article <3076@brahma.cs.hw.ac.uk> neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) writes: >In article <1585@laura.UUCP> atoenne@laura.UUCP (Andreas Toenne) writes: >>FlightSimulator does not run even on a ST with HyperCache. (16Mhz 68000) >If I remember correctly Sublogic wrote Flight Simulator to load at >an absolute address. That is why it breaks when you have any memory hungry >programs like caches already loaded. Slapped wrists to Sublogic. No way! FSII runs perfectly with installed ram-discs, accs or disc caches. They must have done some other magic to prevent any performance improvement :-) Andreas Toenne atoenne@unido.uucp
jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) (09/15/89)
In article <767@lzaz.ATT.COM> bds@lzaz.ATT.COM (B.SZABLAK) writes: >In article <542@bogart.UUCP>, jerry@polygen.uucp (Jerry Shekhel) writes: >: >: How about the Sun 3/80? It's a 68030 box with *awesome* Unix (SunOS), a >: great programming environment, plenty of professional applications >: available, for around $5K without disk. You can buy it with 8- or 24-bit >: color if you need that. > >Hey! What about an 80386 system? You can get a VGA 4Mb sytem with *awesome* >UNIX(TM) System V for less than $4K -with- disk. A 1Mb MSDOS VGA system can >come in under $3K -with- disk. > Yeah, yeah, I've seen these, and I must admit, if you want Unix cheap, a standard '386 machine is probably the cheapest way to go, considering also that you'll be able to run OS/2 and ungodly amounts of DOS software. I, personally, would pay the extra grand for SunOS -- a combination of System V and 4.3BSD. I've worked with IBM's AIX for their '386 PS/2, and I've seen other versions of '386 Unix. In most cases, they don't come close to the feel of SunOS. And if you think VGA is sufficient for running X-Windows, think again. I'd much rather use Sun's 19" hi-res monochrome system. --- +--------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------------+ | | Polygen Corporation | UUCP: | | Jerry J. Shekhel | Waltham, MA 02254 | {princeton, mit-eddie, | | | (617) 890-2888 | buita, sunne}!polygen!jerry | +--------------------+-----------------------+-------------------------------+