mshapiro@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Blind Man With A Vision) (09/29/89)
Tales of an excursion down the path of darkness..... For the last few weeks, I've been trying to find a MIDI package for a 520ST. Shouldn't be too hard, right? Well, after a couple of hours in fron of the phone book, I broke down and called atari and asked them who sold atari software near where I live. THey told me of only two stores. One was about 45 minutes away and the other about 20 minutes away. Not too bad if I live in your average town. HOWEVER, I LIVE ABOUT 15 MINUTES FROM ATARI'S HQ!!! Why are there only two stores in Santa Clara county that carry atari software? But wait, it gets much worse than this. I went to this store B&C Computer in santa clara, to check out MIDI stuff. THey had several packages to choose from. So I asked the lady there if I could take a look at them. "No, we can't open the packages. We'd have to sell the software as used." Now, I'm thinking to myself, oh great, we've got a genius here. "How do you expect to sell this stuff if I can't look at it? Do you know anything about these?" "No." <Deliberate pause...By this point, I'm just dying to see how she extends this line of reason.> "We're not salesmen We have the stuff if someone wants it." <gasp> "Oh. You probably don't sell a lot of software." <dead air> -=-=- As I'm walking out the door, a man behind the counter starts to tell me how the software business works. He says, "In this market, you have to buy a package and try it out. If it works for you, that's great. If it doesn't, buy another." Now, I'm really getting perterbed. "Look, I don't plan on buying every package in existence, or even more than one. I just want a look at the stuff before I buy it." This is a good one here...."Well, maybe you aren't ready to spend the money to buy something then." "Well, maybe you aren't ready to own your own store." -=-=-=-=- Atari, if you're listening, maybe you should have a little talk with your software/hardware distributors. All two of them. They could use some pointers in the customer relations/sales development areas. Between the difficulties of finding a store in the first place and then the escapade I went through once I did, I have to wonder why people would want to buy an ST when they can buy a MAC and get software on every street corner. HEY ATARI!!!! Get your distribution outlets in line. At least make them pass some sort of test. Ask them to tie their shoes and say their names at the same time. -=-=-=-= If any of you could recommend a decent MIDI package, I would really appreciate it. Obviously, the store wasn't a lot of help. I saw a few packages there, ranging from $54 to $200. I don't mind spending the money, if it's good stuff. Full editing capabilities, as well as scoring. Please, oh please, help me out. <deep breath> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | All I wanna know is.... | | Will the sun go out when God shuts his refridgerator door? | | | | Mitch Shapiro ....{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!mshapiro | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Stephen Whitney) (09/29/89)
To be fair, the other Atari store in the south bay is called San Jose Computer. They let you tryu out software before you buy it. I guess I got used to that and expected it everywhere, but it wasn't to be had in Sacramento. SJC is worth the drive. I used to drive there from Stanford to get Atari software and good service! DISCLAIMER: I have no relationship with SJC except as a satisfied customer. --Steve
stank@anvil.WV.TEK.COM (Stan Kalinowski) (09/30/89)
Many software stores make a great deal of money selling game software.
I suspect that Mitch Shapiro wondered into such a store. That kind of
store is ill equipped to handle the sales of MIDI software. Selling
MIDI software requires the salesperson to have working knowledge of
both computers and music, the type of people Mitch encountered have
neither. Fortunately, there are some alternatives. Try shopping for
MIDI software in a musical instrument store. The better stores
usually have serveral different types of computer available. Most
musicians want to try out instruments before they lay down their hard
earned bucks and this tradition has also carried over to MIDI
software. Here are a few pointers to keep in mind when dealing with
music stores:
o Sales people in music stores are typically paid a comission. If
you want good help, find the salesperson that is most helpful and
deal only with them. Don't jerk them around. If you don't intend
to buy, don't waste their time, it only hurts your reputation as a
good customer. If you buy consistantly from one salesperson he or
she will see you as a source of revenue and thus work harder to
earn a sale.
o Expect to haggle on the price. They will charge you list price
unless you haggle. Typically discounts of 20 to 30 percent can be
had. I've found that when I work with only one salesperson the
negotiations become shorter and sometimes they will even volenteer
a reasonable discount without my saying a word.
o If you are looking at a purchase and it requires a lot of in-store
trial, try to identify a time when the store isn't very busy and
then set up an appointment to try the software then. You'll never
get good service if the saleperson is trying to help 15 people at
once. Also, ask about product demo's, sometimes they are put on
by the product manufacturer and they can answer many questions.
Those are my thoughts on buying MIDI software. Unfortunately, I don't
know the area where Mitch lives and thus cannot recommend any music
stores there. Mitch - I think a brief posting to rec.music.synth
might yeild a few store recommendations in your area.
stank
US Mail: Stan Kalinowski, Tektronix, Inc., Interactive Technologies Division
PO Box 1000, MS 61-028, Wilsonville OR 97070 Phone:(503)-685-2458
e-mail: {ucbvax,decvax,allegra,uw-beaver}!tektronix!orca!stank
or stank@orca.WV.TEK.COMgreg@sj.ate.slb.com (Greg Wageman) (09/30/89)
Opinions expressed are the responsibility of the author. In article <1989Sep28.172110.7096@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU> mshapiro@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Blind Man With A Vision) writes: > >For the last few weeks, I've been trying to find a MIDI package for >a 520ST. atari [...] told me of >only two stores. One was about 45 minutes away and the other about >20 minutes away. Not too bad if I live in your average town. >HOWEVER, I LIVE ABOUT 15 MINUTES FROM ATARI'S HQ!!! Why are there only >two stores in Santa Clara county that carry atari software? But wait, >it gets much worse than this. Why should there be a particularly dense packing of Atari vendors near the company's headquarters? If IBM clonesellers followed that logic, you'd have to go to Taiwan and Korea to find most of them. Stores don't spring up overnight, like mushrooms, and magically create a market. The *market* creates the need for retail outlets, and retailers move to fill the need. In the US, right now, there is very little demand for Atari computers, hence the lack of dealers. Expensive computers are a specialty item. You will not find professional quality computer equipment at Target or K-Mart. Game machines, yes; computers, no. You are looking for MIDI software; that's an even more specialized market. Here's a clue: the MI in MIDI stands for "Musical Instrument". Does that suggest where you should be looking? If Atari has market share anywhere in the US, it's in the music industry. >I went to this store B&C Computer in santa clara, to check out MIDI >stuff. THey had several packages to choose from. So I asked the lady >there if I could take a look at them. > >"No, we can't open the packages. We'd have to sell the software as >used." > >Now, I'm thinking to myself, oh great, we've got a genius here. >"How do you expect to sell this stuff if I can't look at it? Do you >know anything about these?" > >"No." > ><Deliberate pause...By this point, I'm just dying to see how she >extends this line of reason.> >"We're not salesmen We have the stuff if someone wants it." I've been a continued customer of B&C since I moved to California almost 2 years ago. Let me tell you how *overjoyed* I was to find a store, within 20 minutes of where I work, that *specializes* in Atari computers (they sell no other brands), and has a wall full of ST software! Every other computer retailer I had ever seen that even *heard* of an ST, sold them on the side, and had all of about 10 ST titles on their shelves. Would you, as a small businessman, really want to open one copy of *every* non-game title, regardless of cost, just because a prospective customer (who might be "just browsing") wanted a demo? Do you have any concept of how much inventory that would require, and how much it would cost? Let's say you went through five or six packages before you found one you liked. At an (estimated, probably low) average retail price of $120 for a MIDI music package, you're talking $600 worth of inventory, and you're just one customer! Sure, they can now keep those five open packages for "demo" purposes; but they must now stock five more, unopened copies to sell, and as soon as the next update comes out, they're demoing obsolete software. No doubt you would expect them to open the latest versions for you, too. Of course, they should simply swallow the loss they take on the old, open, unsalable copies. You should be thankful that these people are *honest* enough to admit that an opened package should be sold as used software. Many less scrupulous vendors would simply re-wrap the package and put it back on their shelves, at full retail price, and not bat an eyelash. >As I'm walking out the door, a man behind the counter starts to tell me >how the software business works. He says, "In this market, you have to >buy a package and try it out. If it works for you, that's great. If >it doesn't, buy another." > >Now, I'm really getting perterbed. "Look, I don't plan on buying every >package in existence, or even more than one. I just want a look at >the stuff before I buy it." > >This is a good one here...."Well, maybe you aren't ready to spend the >money to buy something then." > >"Well, maybe you aren't ready to own your own store." Well, maybe *you* aren't ready to own your own computer. Before I go shopping for a software package, I do research. While you were at B&C, you should have stopped at their magazine rack and picked up a copy of STart, and checked out the ads for MIDI software. A visit to a Walden Books or B.Dalton's could have netted you a copy of "Electronic Musician", "Keyboard", "Music Technology", and other magazines that specialize in MIDI equipment and software. Read the reviews, the articles, the ads. If you do this, you will have some idea of what these different packages can do, what you need, and which ones fit. It's the job of the software *publisher* to promote his wares, not the retailer. You cannot reasonably expect the software retailer to be an expert in every aspect of the software he sells for a general-purpose computer! You're asking them to be MIDI experts, CAD experts, spreadsheet experts, word processing experts, accounting experts, compiler experts and game experts. An impossible task! >Atari, if you're listening, maybe you should have a little talk with >your software/hardware distributors. All two of them. They could >use some pointers in the customer relations/sales development >areas. Sounds like you're the one who could use a few lessons in the economics of running a small retail business. Perhaps you could do better? I'm sure you've got the $100,000 cash in your pocket for your hardware and software inventory, displays, racks, cases, employee payroll, utilities, store rental, and advertising. All set? Good. Now, try to earn a living selling software at an average $30-$90 *retail* price (hint: you only get to keep about $10-$30 of that). Of course on that kind of margin you can easily afford an army of trained sales staff, who are knowledgable about every package they sell and will gladly open each one for every uninformed imbicile who asks. No doubt you would *never* complain about the people who came in for the demo, but then decide to order the package by mail, because it's $10 cheaper, but then come to *you* for support anyway! >Between the difficulties of finding a store in the first place and >then the escapade I went through once I did, I have to wonder why people >would want to buy an ST when they can buy a MAC and get software on >every street corner. Would you seriously walk into a Mac or PClone computer dealer, and expect an expert to demo, for example, every CAD package they sell, because you don't know which one you want? Be sure to tell them you're buying one copy for personal use. They'll laugh you out of the store. I dare you to try it. >If any of you could recommend a decent MIDI package, I would really >appreciate it. Obviously, the store wasn't a lot of help. I saw >a few packages there, ranging from $54 to $200. I don't mind spending >the money, if it's good stuff. Full editing capabilities, as well as >scoring. Please, oh please, help me out. For full editing AND scoring, you can expect to pay $200 and UP. $60 will get you a basic multi-track sequencer with little or no editing capability. I really suggest you pick up some magazines and read the reviews. There are also MIDI product guides that come out periodically. You *might* be able to get some help at a Music store that carries Atari computers (e.g. Haight-Ashbury Music in San Francisco), but you'd better look like you're ready to spend some money. They make a lot more on the customers who come in ready to drop $1500+ on the latest whiz-bang keyboard/synth/workstation than they do on someone shopping for a $200 software package, so you can bet where they're going to invest their time. The other place you might go for help is your local Atari user group. The Bay Area has several. You can find their numbers in the back of free papers like Micro Times, which you also could have picked up at B&C. No doubt there are members into MIDI who can give you the first-hand look at the packages that you desire. But don't, *don't* libel the nice people at B&C for trying to make an honest living and a decent profit, in a market that is not at all kind. No disclaimer should be necessary, but here it is: I'm not affiliated with B&C Computervisions in any way except as a long-time, satisfied customer. Copyright 1989 Greg Wageman DOMAIN: greg@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: {uunet,decwrl,amdahl}!sjsca4!greg San Jose, CA 95110-1397 BIX: gwage CIS: 74016,352 GEnie: G.WAGEMAN Permission granted for not-for-profit reproduction only.
src@cs.odu.edu (Scott R. Chilcote) (10/02/89)
In article <1989Sep28.172110.7096@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU> mshapiro@polyslo.CalPoly.EDU (Blind Man With A Vision) writes: > >"No, we can't open the packages. We'd have to sell the software as >used." > ><Deliberate pause...By this point, I'm just dying to see how she >extends this line of reason.> >"We're not salesmen We have the stuff if someone wants it." > ><gasp> "Oh. You probably don't sell a lot of software." > >Now, I'm really getting perterbed. "Look, I don't plan on buying every >package in existence, or even more than one. I just want a look at >the stuff before I buy it." > >This is a good one here...."Well, maybe you aren't ready to spend the >money to buy something then." > >"Well, maybe you aren't ready to own your own store." > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >| All I wanna know is.... | >| Will the sun go out when God shuts his refridgerator door? | >| | >| Mitch Shapiro ....{csustan,csun,sdsu}!polyslo!mshapiro | >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mitch: You seem to be having your first dose of software buying experience. It doesn't take long to come to the realization that buying software is not the same as buying ties, records, or fast food. The legal tangles involved in dealing in software are enough to make the squeamish flee in terror. It isn't pretty, and there isn't much justice in it for _anyone_. Most computer owners have come to recognize this in the past five years or so. As you learn the ropes, I have just one request to make. PLEASE DON'T FLAME SOFTWARE DEALERS ON THE NET -- UNLESS THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING REALLY AWFUL! The people you spoke to weren't, by your descrip- tion. THERE ARE FEW ENOUGH ATARI DEALERS AS IT IS WITHOUT YOU MAKING THEIR LIVES EVEN MORE DIFFICULT! Please read the following basic facts about selling software. 1. Piracy is rampant. A game program has a useful retail life of about three months. An application program can be sold for approximately one year. 2. NOBODY will buy an open package. Most software has a shrink-wrap agreement built in -- if you open it, you accept the terms, which means you own it. 3. The distributor will not refund the dealer on an open program. This means that the DEALER owns it -- permanently -- once it's been opened. This is not true (usually) of still-sealed programs, which can be traded back. 4. NOBODY in the ST software business is getting rich. Hundreds of ST dealers have switched to selling other computers. Hundreds of ST programmers have stopped writing for our machine. Grousing at them is not likely to make them happier to be losing money for our sakes. So, you wonder, how are you expected to find out about programs if you can't rip into the package, have a personalized demo, bring in your keyboard and test it for a few hours? There are several options, although few of them are as convenient as what I've described. BUY MAGAZINES. ST-Log. Start! has an annual MIDI issue with lots of reviews. Current Notes and ST-World also publish good reviews of MIDI software. If you are lucky enough to have an Atari ST user's group in your area, JOIN IT! The local user's group has a very scant membership, in spite of hundreds of ST owners in this area. Don't let _yours_ suffer from apathy. You can find other ST owners with MIDI software and test it, get demos, and learn firsthand. DON'T pirate, though -- unless you want the revisions to stop, and the new software development to die out. The neat thing about paying for support is that you can call the developer or write a letter, and maybe have your own suggestions built into the next release. Programmers are driven people who want to please their customers when given a chance! I've had my say. Please take these words seriously. I have seen a couple of good ST stores close simply because the owners couldn't deal with the hassles anymore. Flame the software business all you want, but take it easy on the dealers. They're simply caught in the squeeze! -- ___________________________________________________________________________ |.--------------------------------..---------------------------------------.| || Usenet: src@xanth.UUCP || || || Arpa: src@xanth.cs.odu.edu || Q: Why did the chicken cross the || || Earth: Scott R. Chilcote || Moebus Strip? || || || || || ||| "Sure, Jack, we || A: To get to... er... umm... || || ||| trust you. But will || || || / | \ will you respect us || -----=====#####=====----- || || / | \ in the morning?" || || |:________________________________:'---------------------------------------'| '---------------------------------------------------------------------------'