Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) (09/22/89)
Jeff Long happily shared his experiences of refilling HP DeskJet
cartridge. Since I'm the culprit who originated this alleged technique
a few months back and shared it on the net, I'd like to reinforce
something.
Hewlett Packard is very unhappy with our attempts to shave costs
from those $18.00 jewels! I bought my DeskJet because I wanted
laser-type output but could not afford the laser platform costs. Everything
about the DeskJet is cheap except for those cartridges. They don't last
worth a hoot and one is always having to buy them.
HP's answer to their short life is to use draft mode, thus saving
ink. Give me a break....! I bought the DeskJet for its output quality.
Anyway, a $5.00 price tag for each cartridge would be about right but
that'll never be. HP's answer for their obscene ink cartridge price
is that the quality of the output is visually comparable to that of a
laser, hence, toner pricing schemes of a laser are used to compute
the cost of the ink cartridge. Also, my suggestion that the cartridge
should be compared, cost-wise, against a printer ribbon, was unacceptable
due to the laser comparison.
Here is the official warning from Hewlett Packard. Refilling the
ink cartridges will probably void your warranty. SUPPOSEDLY, any ink
used other than HP's ink will result in the priming tube clogging
meaning that the prime functions will begin to die. You would then
get streaks on the paper during the first passes of the cartridge.
Secondly, the ink cartridge is not designed for long life. Refilling
the cartridge will cause eventual quality loss of the print job.
To enforce their view further, they state that non-HP ink will
'crust'.
Ok, as far as crusting is concerned which can clog the tubes
and make a general mess of things..... I've yet to see crusting
that is differant than that of the HP crusting. Also, I was able to
extend the life of my December cartridge to the month of June. How
many print jobs did that poor thing do? I don't know. Let's just
say that it printed daily about an average of 15 pages/day and began
to lose quality output during May. I'd think that I saved about
five cartridges during this almost 1/2 year period.
Refilling the cartridge is not meant to make the cartridge
permanent as HP seems to think that I'm doing. I'm just trying to
make things a bit more affordable than they are. HP's argument that
the DeskJet visually gives laser output, thus requiring the cost of
$18.00 would be like buying a Chevrolet and to get it to operate, one
would have to purchase $50.00/gallon gasoline to run it because the
Rolls Royce uses gasoline. ...or something like that! I'm not good
with logic! grin
So, be aware that if you refill the cartridges, you will receive
no sympathy from Hewlett Packard. And...as usual, we as individual
users will suffer. You see, offices will buy ten of these cartridges
in one order without thinking anything of the cost.
That is why I've been so disturbed at Atari trying to enter the
business market. Once the B word is applicable to a product rather
than the H word (home), then costs will be out of sight for individuals.
Just my opinion....
Larry Rymal: |East Texas Atari 68NNNers| <Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET>logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) (09/23/89)
Larry Rymal Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: > Here is the official warning from Hewlett Packard. Refilling the > [DeskJet] ink cartridges will probably void your warranty. They might as well also threaten to void the warranty for grinning in the dark -- for all the good it will do them. Laws that are impossible to enforce (because the violation is undetectable) are always silly. -- - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 -
swan@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US (Joel Swan) (09/24/89)
In article <1716@ns.network.com> logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) writes: :Larry Rymal Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: :> Here is the official warning from Hewlett Packard. Refilling the :> [DeskJet] ink cartridges will probably void your warranty. : :They might as well also threaten to void the warranty for grinning in the :dark -- for all the good it will do them. Laws that are impossible to :enforce (because the violation is undetectable) are always silly. : :-- :- John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - :- logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 - True, so far as nothing goes wrong with your printer. However, the possibility of the bogus ink clogging the pump inside your DJ is very high. Once clogged, someone may bring their printer in for warranty repair. One look by the repair technician and out the door you go. I am hesitant to try any new inks yet because of the priming/bleeding pump that keeps the ink jets clean. The "pump" consists of nothing more than a slender plastic tube that is squeezed along by a cam. If the ink dries out in this tube, you may well be up a creek w/o a paddle. The "violation" only becomes a violation when someone needs the warranty work. At that point, detection is inevitable.
jlong@blackbird.afit.af.mil (Jeffrey K. Long) (09/25/89)
In article <1585@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US> swan@jolnet.UUCP (Joel Swan) writes: > >True, so far as nothing goes wrong with your printer. However, the possibility >of the bogus ink clogging the pump inside your DJ is very high. Once >clogged, someone may bring their printer in for warranty repair. One look >by the repair technician and out the door you go. > I have been hearing all this "concern" that the "bogus" ink would clog the primer on the printer for 1 1/2 years now! I also have been in contact with several people on the net who have been refilling the cartridges (as do I) so a long time now! Has ANYONE personally seen or heard of a first-hand case of the primer becoming defective in a DeskJet? If so, was is due to "bogus" ink?? I am going to be very surprised if anyone has really seen this happen!! A few moments examining the print head set-up in my Deskjet would indicate that the actual "jets" of the head are SEALED shut by a rubber seal (I guess this is the "primer tube" opening? If this is not the case, and assuming that ink is supposed to collect in this "primer tube" in a liquid state and remain that way, how does the original HP ink perform this magcic?? I have been under the impression that the priming action actually was the result of an increased elctrical drive signal to the cartridge to force more ink into the jets. Is this wrong? Would someone from HP please, at least unofffically, respond to this issue? ========================================================================= | Jeff Long jlong@afit-af.mil (ARPA net) | | | | humble (and getting humbler by the day) graduate student; | | The Air Force Institute of Technology (what a great way of life??) | =========================================================================
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (09/26/89)
> Has ANYONE personally seen or heard of a first-hand case of the primer > becoming defective in a DeskJet? If so, was is due to "bogus" ink?? and > Would someone from HP please, at least unofffically, respond to this issue? I doubt it. We value our jobs too much. There is really no such thing as an "unofficial" response on notes, all disclaimers aside. Also, unofficial private correspondances have a way of being distributed. I work for HP, I am using one of HP's computers right now, and I am therefore an HP representative. I also know the truth on this refill matter to the extent HP really understands all the issues (which are, by the way, quite complex) relating to inks and service stations. Alas, I must hold my tongue (or fingers or whatever). Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM Disclaimer: I don't think I said anything but if I did I disclaim it all for what its worth, which should be, by the way, nothing if I said nothing, which I did -- I think :-).
swan@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US (Joel Swan) (09/26/89)
In article <1356@blackbird.afit.af.mil> jlong@blackbird.afit.af.mil (Jeffrey K. Long) writes: :In article <1585@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US> swan@jolnet.UUCP (Joel Swan) writes: :> :>True, so far as nothing goes wrong with your printer. However, the possibility :>of the bogus ink clogging the pump inside your DJ is very high. Once [text deleted] : :I am going to be very surprised if anyone has really seen this happen!! :A few moments examining the print head set-up in my Deskjet would indicate :that the actual "jets" of the head are SEALED shut by a rubber seal (I :guess this is the "primer tube" opening? If this is not the case, and :assuming that ink is supposed to collect in this "primer tube" in a liquid :state and remain that way, how does the original HP ink perform this :magcic?? I have been under the impression that the priming action actually :was the result of an increased elctrical drive signal to the cartridge to :force more ink into the jets. Is this wrong? : :Would someone from HP please, at least unofffically, respond to this issue? : :| Jeff Long jlong@afit-af.mil (ARPA net) | Yes and No. My information comes from an HP publication that is circulated internally to HP. One of the issues was devoted to the developement of the DeskJet, it's ink cartridge, paper movement systems, electrical systems, user interface systems, etc. I am not speaking "officially" for HP. You are right when talking about an "electrical drive signal" that ink into the jets, sort of. The jets get heated and force the ink to eject in rapid succession. However, the pump I'm talking about is not in the cartridge, but in the body of the DiskJet. If you open the DJ up, you will find on the righ-hand side, the cam and tube I'm refering to. Each and every time the DJ begins to print, the cartridge head wipes across a rubber wiper. Next to this wiper is the opening is where the cartridge rests. This is where the tube sucks the ink to "prime" each printing. Like I said, the new ink may work fine, but I hear HP is developing a DJ approved water proof ink, so I'll wait and see. If you can get you hands on this HP circular (about 40 pages?) it makes very interesting reading. They really pulled off a mechanical coup with the DJ. Joel
coffey@ucselx.sdsu.edu (pat coffey) (09/27/89)
In article <890922.08325265.044109@SFA.CP6> Z4648252@SFAUSTIN.BITNET (Z4648252) writes: > Here is the official warning from Hewlett Packard. Refilling the >ink cartridges will probably void your warranty. SUPPOSEDLY, any ink >used other than HP's ink will result in the priming tube clogging >meaning that the prime functions will begin to die. You would then > To enforce their view further, they state that non-HP ink will >'crust'. > Ok, as far as crusting is concerned which can clog the tubes >and make a general mess of things..... I've yet to see crusting >that is differant than that of the HP crusting. I've been refilling my hp carteidges for about 6 months now, and, last weekend, my dj stopped printing. I put in a brand new cartreidge that had an expiration date of 12/90 and it printed about 10 pages and then died. Ususally when the cart. is running out of ink, it starts skipping and printing lightly. This time, it just stopped printing all together. I cleaned it as well as I could, but, alas, nothing. I am trying to get it repaired now. I hope I didn't break it by refilling; but I may have. :-( -- _ _ Ms. Pat Coffey |_) (_ San Diego State University | coffey@ucselx.sdsu.edu
logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) (09/28/89)
coffey@ucselx.UUCP (pat coffey) writes: >> Ok, as far as crusting is concerned which can clog the tubes >>and make a general mess of things..... I've yet to see crusting >>that is differant than that of the HP crusting. >I've been refilling my hp carteidges for about 6 months now, and, >last weekend, my dj stopped printing. I put in a brand new cartreidge >that had an expiration date of 12/90 and it printed about 10 pages >and then died. I don't see how this could have anything to do with refilling the cartridge. I mean, the whole print head IS the cartridge. If you replace the cartridge, you'd have to invoke homeopathic magic to blame it on the previous cartridge! To the guy that claimed that your HP repair guy would be able to tell the difference between HP clogged ink and so-called "bogus" clogged ink -- NONSENSE! Do your really believe that the HP repair guy is going to send out samples of your clogged ink to a chemical analysis to determine if he should void the waranty or not? Nobody has that amount of luxury time available. When I had my HP DeskJet Plus taken apart to pieces (a very easy task, by the way) I saw the little plastic tube that runs the primed ink down to a blotter pad in the base of the unit. It certainly wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to clean the tube out if it did become clogged! (The fact that HP ink is air drying and so is "bogus" ink, leads me to seriously doubt that one is more likely to clog than the other.) The type of person who refills ink cartridges is almost suredly the same type of person who will take the skins off the DJ+ to clean his own plastic tube. Let HP make is ripoff money off the types who don't know which end of a soldering iron to hold. I'll gladly continue to (start to) refill my cartridge without fear of HP detection or loss of waranty. -- - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 -
swan@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US (Joel Swan) (09/28/89)
In article <1989Sep27.230532.25344@ns.network.com> logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) writes: : :I don't see how this could have anything to do with refilling the :cartridge. I mean, the whole print head IS the cartridge. If you :replace the cartridge, you'd have to invoke homeopathic magic to :blame it on the previous cartridge! The blame would be on the clogged passage ways BELOW the print cartridge. :To the guy that claimed that your HP repair guy would be able to tell :the difference between HP clogged ink and so-called "bogus" clogged :ink -- NONSENSE! Do your really believe that the HP repair guy is :going to send out samples of your clogged ink to a chemical analysis :to determine if he should void the waranty or not? Nobody has that :amount of luxury time available. The HP ink is water soluble. Your ink isn't. Can you think of a quick easy way to check if you've used HP's ink? (A water faucet can't be too far away...) >- John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - >- logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 - I prefer to watch the situation for another 6 months or so. If no real problems develop, I'll probably switch to a home brew too. In the mean time, keep us up to date on any repairs needed (how would you clean solid water proof ink form a thin plastic tube?) Hope things work out. I'd like to save some $ too. Joel
news@blackbird.afit.af.mil (News System Account) (09/28/89)
In article <1618@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US> swan@jolnet.UUCP (Joel Swan) writes: >In article <1989Sep27.230532.25344@ns.network.com> logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) writes: >: > [stuff deleted] >The HP ink is water soluble. Your ink isn't. >Can you think of a quick easy way to check if you've used HP's ink? >(A water faucet can't be too far away...) > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Joel, you must have not been keeping up with the procedure we are all using to refill our cartridges. ** use ONLY Script Jet-Black Water soluble INK!!!!!!!!! The ink costs $2.00 for a bottle and is in a yellow and blue box made by Shaeffer INk Co. This ink is water soluble!! ========================================================================= | Jeff Long jlong@blackbird.afit.af.mil (ARPA net) | | | | humble (and getting humbler by the day) graduate student; | | The Air Force Institute of Technology (what a great way of life??) | =========================================================================
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) (09/29/89)
O.K. I'll open my mouth a bit. A little truth can go a long way ... >I've been refilling my hp carteidges for about 6 months now, and, >last weekend, my dj stopped printing. I put in a brand new cartreidge >that had an expiration date of 12/90 and it printed about 10 pages >and then died. and a responder says: >>I don't see how this could have anything to do with refilling the >>cartridge. I mean, the whole print head IS the cartridge. If you >>replace the cartridge, you'd have to invoke homeopathic magic to >>blame it on the previous cartridge! ... >>When I had my HP DeskJet Plus taken apart to pieces (a very easy >>task, by the way) I saw the little plastic tube that runs the primed >>ink down to a blotter pad in the base of the unit. It certainly >>wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to clean the >>tube out if it did become clogged! (The fact that HP ink is >>air drying and so is "bogus" ink, leads me to seriously doubt that >>one is more likely to clog than the other.) The person that had a pen deprime that would not recover probably is seeing one of two situations: 1) His pen deprimed due to a pen failure which has nothing to do with ink refilling. This does happen sometimes and if a new pen suddenly deprimes and priming has no effect our dealers are authorized to replace the pen. 2) His pen deprimed and normal priming would have reprimed the pen but the prime tube is clogged due to using refilled cartridges. One way to distinguish between these cases it to try to prime the suspect pen on another DeskJet and see if the pen works. If it does, the tube is probably clogged and your printer is no longer priming. The person who mentioned it is fairly easy to clean the tube is also correct. It is also true that a clogged tube is the main reason ink refills will void the warrantee. However, YOU may be brave and smart enough to take apart your printer, risking breaking who knows what, and unclog the prime tube, but the average DeskJet user would be more likely to take his printer in for warrantee repair. It is also fairly messy to take apart and clean the service station -- I know, I've done it before, but then again, I always figured I could have been a rocket scientist if I had wanted to :-). It is also fairly easy to break some of the plastic parts if you don't know what you are doing. Since we are pushing the DeskJet as a no mess, no fuss inkjet solution obviously messing with ink to refill cartridges and taking apart the service station to clean it and unclog tubes runs contrary to this message. Refilling cartridges and cleaning the service station is kind of like changing your own oil in your car. Its not very hard to do, but most people would rather spend some extra money to avoid dirtying their hands. Obviously, once your DeskJet printer is out of warrantee, do with it as you please. You paid for it. If you break it, you will have to pay HP to fix it :-). But if its on warrantee I hope you guys can all see why HP does not want to have to pay for warantee repairs due to operating printer in a way that it wasn't designed. The ink formula is a critical part of the entire service station behavior. Thats one of the reasons waterfast ink is so difficult. Now you may wonder how HP is going to catch someone who refills cartridges. Generally its hard to prove that someone has refilled cartridges -- except in the case of those people who openly confess to it on notes :-). However our service people might ask if the customer has ever refilled ink cartridges. Some people use colored ink in their refills and of course I'm sure our service people could notice that. But don't worry, I won't turn you in :-). Dave Neff neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM
logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) (09/29/89)
In article <1618@jolnet.ORPK.IL.US> swan@jolnet.UUCP (Joel Swan) writes: >:replace the cartridge, you'd have to invoke homeopathic magic to >:blame it on the previous cartridge! >The blame would be on the clogged passage ways BELOW the print cartridge. >The HP ink is water soluble. Your ink isn't. I don't mean to be harsh, but you obviously do not know of where you speak. -- - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 -
andyc@hplsla.HP.COM (Andy Cassino) (09/30/89)
Speaking *completely* from a personal point of view here...
With regard to refilling the DeskJet cartridges, I'm sure Clik'n'Clak
(of _Car_Talk_ fame) would say:
"'Tis the stingy man (sic) that pays the most."
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are those solely
of the author.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Andy Cassino %
% uucp: hplabs!hplsla!andyc domain: andyc%hplsla@hplabs.hp.com %
% Hewlett-Packard Lake Stevens Instrument Division %
% 8600 Soper Hill Road Everett, WA 98205-1298 %
% (206) 335-2211 %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%logajan@ns.network.com (John Logajan) (09/30/89)
neff@hpvcfs1.HP.COM (Dave Neff) of Hewlett Packard writes: > 1) His pen deprimed due to a pen failure which has nothing to do with ink > refilling. This does happen sometimes and if a new pen suddenly deprimes > and priming has no effect our dealers are authorized to replace the pen. > 2) His pen deprimed and normal priming would have reprimed the pen but > the prime tube is clogged due to using refilled cartridges. Thanks for the discussion of these two failure modes. > It is also true that a clogged tube is the main reason ink refills will void > the warrantee. I would think that it would have to be the only "maintenence" reason, the other being purely profit oriented (scare people into paying high bucks for two cents worth of ink.) (By the way, I am not opposed to the profit motive, in fact, I am trying to maximize it -- on my end!) > It is also fairly easy to break some of the plastic parts if you don't know > what you are doing. Heck, you can say the same about some people's own body parts! > your own oil in your car. Its not very hard to do, but most people > would rather spend some extra money to avoid dirtying their hands. I actually had someone change my oil once. It cost four times what I could do it for. I don't know what everyone else gets paid per hour, but I just can't justify such luxuries. > why HP does not want to have to pay for warantee repairs due to operating > printer in a way that it wasn't designed. And they do WANT to have to pay for in warantee work? :-) -- - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - logajan@ns.network.com, john@logajan.mn.org, Phn 612-424-4888, Fax 424-2853 -
mitchell@cbmvax.UUCP (Fred Mitchell - QA) (10/04/89)
In article <4056@ucselx.sdsu.edu> coffey@ucselx.UUCP (pat coffey) writes: > >I've been refilling my hp carteidges for about 6 months now, and, >last weekend, my dj stopped printing. I put in a brand new cartreidge >that had an expiration date of 12/90 and it printed about 10 pages >and then died. Ususally when the cart. is running out of ink, it >starts skipping and printing lightly. This time, it just stopped >printing all together. I cleaned it as well as I could, but, alas, >nothing. I am trying to get it repaired now. > >I hope I didn't break it by refilling; but I may have. :-( Try cleaning the electrical contacts on the print head & DJ. I think the DJ manual mentions something about this. I have had my DeskJet for over a year with *no* problems. But I've never even dreamed of using refilled cartridges. Also, I never leave my printer on- I turn it on only when I need it, and off it goes when I'm finished. Less to worry about- like spikes and the like!
coffey@ucselx.sdsu.edu (pat coffey) (10/05/89)
In article <8077@cbmvax.UUCP> mitchell@cbmvax.UUCP (Fred Mitchell - QA) writes: >In article <4056@ucselx.sdsu.edu> coffey@ucselx.UUCP (pat coffey) writes: >> >> ... Ususally when the cart. is running out of ink, it >>starts skipping and printing lightly. This time, it just stopped >>printing all together. I cleaned it as well as I could, but, alas, >>nothing. I am trying to get it repaired now. > >Try cleaning the electrical contacts on the print head & DJ. I think the >DJ manual mentions something about this. > BTW I tried cleaning the contacts and it did nothing. When HP repaired it, they replaced the entire carriage mechanism. Everything from the platen on down! It looks like over half the machine. It was done under warranty, so I didn't have to pay for it. The point is that HP doesn't just replace the priming mechanism --they replace a huge part of the machine. I'm glad I didn't have to pay for it and don't want to in the future. The cost of a new cartridge is less than the cost of dinner for 2 at a fairly nice restaraunt so I'm not taking any chances. For you who are mechanically minded, you may want to try to un-clog the priming tube your self. The problem is that it feeds in and out of the priming cam cover and I have no idea of how to 1. pull it out . 2. put it back . i.e. it goes into a black box and comes out the other end. I have no idea of what was broken; neither does the dealer. It had something to do with the priming mechanism. -- _ _ Ms. Pat Coffey |_) (_ San Diego State University | coffey@ucselx.sdsu.edu