rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) (09/29/89)
Recently in this group I called Atari's TOS and GEM software "junk".
I have been "gently reminded" by some readers that this is a less than
constructive criticism. True. I spoke hastily, while under the
influence of other frustrations not related to Atari. Sorry, Atari;
no doubt you get sick of hearing such blather. I should think and
then re-think before I post.
And while I believe we all know this, it probably should be said anyway:
"Anything I say or have said regards Atari or Atari products is to be
construed only as the personal opinions of an owner of Atari products,
not that of the corporate entity of the Apollo Division of Hewlett-Packard,
nor of H.P. itself. I speak for myself."
There, can I come out of the corner now, Mom? Good.
So, Atari, are we ever going to see any substantive improvements to GEM?
Do you own the rights to the Atari incarnation to GEM, such that you can
even do so? Can we at least have resolution-independency, such that we
needn't reboot our machines to switch from medium- to low-resolution screens
in an application? Why does David Beckmeyer say that you have never shown
any interest in incorporating his multi-tasking kernel into the ST? You
incorporated Dave Small's "Twister" disk format concept into the Megas, I
understand -- why not multi-tasking for the TT if not older models? You
are aware of it, are you not? Are there technical difficulties? Legal
difficulties? Ego difficulties? If the TT is as fast as the '030 is
potentially capable of making it, will Atari release something like PC-Ditto
on it, to provide (free of charge) MS-DOS emulation at (I'm guessing)
XT-clone speeds? Boy, would *THAT* be a marketing hook! How about
incorporating other, less drastic improvements -- such as the executable-
compression scheme used in products like PACKER and DC SQUISH? Or the
palette-switching scheme used by Spectrum512 to get the full hardware
palette of 512 colors on a single screen -- could ANTIC Software (or
whomever owns the technique) be persuaded to liscense it to developers?
Do they already? It's a mighty impressive-looking gadget, even if it
does eat the majority of the cpu's processing power. How about collecting
some of the best public domain widgets, cleaning them up (to give them
coherent user-interfaces, if they have such) and distributing them on
an extra disk or two to new owners? At least a RAM disk would be nice
-- is that a feature of the TOS 1.4 release, by the way? Wouldn't it
be fairly easy to add a new device for a RAM disk to TOS, so that, for
example, formatting the "Z:" drive or some such would create a RAM disk?
Can we ever expect to see the 6-desk-accessory limit lengthened, since so
many accessories are usually employed to get around weaknesses in TOS and
GEM? Are TOS and GEM in "maintenance, we-won't-touch-it-until-it-bites
mode"? Is Atari planning to do anything with its CD-ROM player, now that
it (apparently) is a real product? That is to ask, will Atari release
anything on CD-ROM, or is it a box waiting for applications? Shouldn't
Atari do something in the way of promoting recommended standard methods
to do things like printer-drivers, visual appearance of GEM dialogues,
etc? Wasn't there a similar recommendation for command-line parsing &
environment variables & the like from Atari a couple of years ago? Is
Atari serious about getting its laser printer supported by 3rd party
software? Is Atari serious about selling its own laser printers, when
the street-price of lasers that support de-facto standard protocols (e.g.:
the new H.P. LaserJet IIP, or any of a number of cheapo LaserJet clones)
is down around $1,000? Will Atari ever offer any sort of upgrade
allowance to entice ST owners to "buy up" to an STE or TT, similar to
what Commodore did for A1000 owners when the A2000 was announced? Are
the STE and TT European machines, or will we ever see them here in the
U.S.? When can we expect to actually be able to walk into an Atari-
authorized dealer (assuming any still exist in the immediate area) and
see one, let alone consider buying one? Will Atari advertise either
machine in this country, in magazines, say? Back in 1986, START magazine
published an interview with the prez of Atari, in which Mr. Tramiel said
that the "new, 68020-based Ataris" would be released "within months of
this interview" or some words to that effect. Rumors of the "TT" floated
for months and months, and apparently prototypes were shopped around.
Why should we believe that this (words from Atari employees to the effect
that they have TTs on their desks notwithstanding) is anything different;
i.e.: yet another VaporBox?
From what I have seen on comp.sys.(apollo|sun|amiga|mac), such questions
would get a reasoned response from someone within the organization. The
Commodore folks seem especially good about this, unless the questions are
incredibly offensive. (Are mine?) I don't own an Amiga, so that isn't an
under-handed plug for that box, just an observation. Have I just missed
such answers that were given earlier? Enquiring minds wanna know.
--
>>> "Aaiiyeeeee! Death from above!" <<< | Steve Rehrauer
Fone: (508)256-6600 x6168 | Apollo Computer, a
ARPA: rehrauer@apollo.hp.com | division of Hewlett-Packard
"Look, Max: 'Pressurized cheese in a can'. Even _WE_ wouldn't eat that!"kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) (10/07/89)
rehrauer@apollo.HP.COM (Steve Rehrauer) writes: | Recently in this group I called Atari's TOS and GEM software "junk". You are not the first, and no way will you be the last to do so. And thank you for your reasonable apology - something rarely seen after a "blathering" post. And now... on with the Inquisition. Steve, you ask a _LOT_ of questions! Here we go... | So, Atari, are we ever going to see any substantive improvements to GEM? I consider Rainbow TOS a "substantive improvement." All the same, Atari is still working on improving and updating the operating system for the ST series. | Do you own the rights to the Atari incarnation to GEM, such that you can | even do so? See above. | Can we at least have resolution-independency [...]? The VDI is quite resolution independent. It's fairly simple to write resolution independant code using the facilities of the VDI. Providing similar facilities in the AES, however, is a harder job than you realize (come with me, if you will, into the deep dark recesses of the AES sources... MOOOhaHAhaHA...). Keep in mind, though, that the TT supports six resolutions on one monitor. That fact says something about what we are doing with the TT OS. | Why does David Beckmeyer say that you have never shown | any interest in incorporating his multi-tasking kernel into the ST? [...] | why not multi-tasking for the TT if not older models? I have exchanged mail with Mr. Beckemeyer, and it is my PERSONAL opinion that Atari could do much worse than adopt his RTX implementation outright for an ST based multitasking standard. RTX works well, and includes a lot of what we need to multitask GEMDOS. It does not support everything we need to support, however. I have not seen statistics on compatibility of GEM applications (although I know that BDT has made an attempt at allowing GEM multitasking with the VSH manager). Atari will not release anything less than a thoroughly robust, compatible multitasking OS. You _will_ see multitasking on the TT someday. I make that statement with considerable wailing and gnashing of teeth... I do NOT want people coming out with "Where's the multitasking? Where's the multitasking?" It is regrettable, but true: the more whining _I_ hear about a particular thing, the less inclined I am to work hard on it. With encouragement, we may both get what we want. | You are aware of it, are you not? Are there technical difficulties? | Legal difficulties? Ego difficulties? Yes, I use MT-C shell myself, but it's only a shell. Legal difficutlies? Perhaps, but I'm no lawyer. Ego problems? Absolutely not. If something works, and it's solid, I personally have no qualms about "stealing from the best." ;-) | If the TT is as fast as the '030 is potentially capable of making it... The TT is fast. Quite fast. Trust me. | will Atari release something like PC-Ditto | on it, to provide (free of charge) MS-DOS emulation at (I'm guessing) | XT-clone speeds? MS-DOS emulation free of charge? Hmm... I don't think so. Please be reasonable - if Atari provides you with something of value, don't you think Atari should charge a FAIR price? I don't doubt that an MS-DOS engine will appear from some quarter for TT, and it will probably perform very well, but I don't see Atari giving one away. | How about | incorporating other, less drastic improvements -- such as the executable- | compression scheme used in products like PACKER and DC SQUISH? From what I understand of how these programs work, it really isn't necessary to ROM anything to support compressed executables. As is demonstrated by their very existence, it's fairly straightforward to pull off such a thing with the existing OS. | Or the palette-switching scheme used by Spectrum512 to get the full | hardware palette of 512 colors on a single screen -- could ANTIC | Software (or whomever owns the technique) be persuaded to liscense it | to developers? Do they already? I don't know whether Antic licenses the Spectrum graphics kernel or not. If they don't - I agree with you, they should! As you point out, though, this is a software type of thing that is best accomplished in a runtime library. It will be possible with TT to make some very interesting new graphics modes available. But because of the flexibility of the new video system, it would be very hard to please all of the people with ROMmed code. Atari supported software library routines are a valid alternative. | How about collecting | some of the best public domain widgets, cleaning them up (to give them | coherent user-interfaces, if they have such) and distributing them on | an extra disk or two to new owners? I think this sort of thing is much better accomplished by dealers and user groups. Atari could never hope to provide the level of localized, caring support which dealers and user groups can. Most user groups have extensive PD library collections. Many offer the collections for sale via mail, at a nominal price. There is a company associated with, I believe, Paradise Computing, which is working on a PD CD-ROM disk that contains hundreds of titles. We are working with them to make this disk available. | At least a RAM disk would be nice | -- is that a feature of the TOS 1.4 release, by the way? Wouldn't it | be fairly easy to add a new device for a RAM disk to TOS, so that, for | example, formatting the "Z:" drive or some such would create a RAM disk? No and no. MetaDOS, the extension to GEMDOS which allows device drivers for such things as the CD ROM, would be hampered by such a scheme. And as I mentioned before - application software does not belong in the operating system. There are a wide variety of PD, shareware, and commercial RAMdisks available, and they all have their plusses and minuses. We could not hope to please everyone with our own RAMdisk system software - there are much more important system software issues being dealt with at the moment. | Can we ever expect to see the 6-desk-accessory limit lengthened [...]? I'd like to see more desk accessories available myself. When the AES multitiasks, the definition of a desk accessory is going to become rather fuzzy. In the mean time, there is MultiDesk, from CodeHead software, which allows you to use a virtually unlimited number of desk accessories. | Are TOS and GEM in "maintenance, we-won't-touch-it-until-it-bites | mode"? TOS is in a constant state of flux. Hopefully we are successfully combatting entropy, and making it better as it goes. And Atari has recently released the Rainbow TOS upgrade. | Is Atari planning to do anything with its CD-ROM player, [...] | will Atari release anything on CD-ROM, or is it a box waiting | for applications? CD-ROM development systems are available now to registered developers. The cost is $420, which is quite a deal, considering what you get. Contact Gail Johnson at Atari if you're interested. The CD-ROM is a box waiting for applications, which are being worked on by several developers. | Shouldn't Atari do something in the way of promoting recommended | standard methods to do things like printer-drivers, visual appearance | of GEM dialogues, etc? Yes. We do have a printer driver construction kit for GDOS printer drivers - it is available to registered developers. Again, contact Gail Johnson for information. Visual appearance of dialogs? I would prefer to see a consensus from the developer community on an issue like this, rather than a decree from Atari declaring "Thou shalt...". But Atari should and will take an active role in any such standards creation. | Are the STE and TT European machines, or will we ever see them here | in the U.S.? You will most assuredly see STE and TT in the US. Sam Tramiel said in his latest live GEnie conference that STE and Stacy will be shipping in the US in October, and TT before the end of the year. STE is already for sale in Europe - notably in France, since they we lost a good deal of inventory there when Atari France burned to the ground last month. But there are dozens of variables in production, distribution, marketing, sales, dealer network... It's best not to ask "When?" too much. Atari is doing its best to get the new products to the dealers in a timely manner. The best answer is that they will be available when they are available. | When can we expect to actually be able to walk into an Atari- | authorized dealer (assuming any still exist in the immediate area) and | see one, let alone consider buying one? I just said don't ask when! ;-) Really, "when" is the hardest question to answer when it comes to Atari products in the US, for the reasons I mentioned before. | Will Atari advertise either machine in this country, in magazines, say? Absolutely. I forsee an agressive advertising policy towards the new machines. Sam Tramiel said as much in his last live GEnie conference. But don't ask me when. <hehe> -- ||| Ken Badertscher (ames!atari!kbad) ||| Atari R&D System Software Engine / | \ #include <disclaimer>