drc@beach.cis.ufl.edu (David Cabana) (10/17/89)
Please excuse my rhetorical device; I know as well as you that Borland will not respond... I am curious, though, to know why Turbo C for the ST is not distributed in the US. The only thing that pops to mind is that the documentation may not be in English (is it?), and the cost of translation, publication, etc. makes US distribution impossible. Any ideas? Why are no enterprising Europeans reselling Turbo ST to the US? For any kind of fair price, I would buy. A parting observation: refusing to sell Turbo C in the US seems very likely to result in (eventual) widespread piracy of the program in the US. An odd strategy, but I must be missing something... -- David Cabana drc@beach.cis.ufl.edu UUCP: ...!gatech!uflorida!beach.cis.ufl.edu!drc
chad@norge.enet.dec.com (chad leigh) (10/17/89)
I'm going to Germany in January and would like to get Turbo C for my ST. What is a fair price for it and where in Frankfurt, Stuttgartm or Munich is the best place to buy it? Does it work on US ROMS or TOS 1.4? Thanks Chad ----------------------------------------
pa1038@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Jon McCarty) (10/18/89)
In article <1547@hiatus.dec.com> chad@norge.enet.dec.com (chad leigh) writes: > >I'm going to Germany in January and would like to get Turbo C for my ST. What >is a fair price for it and where in Frankfurt, Stuttgartm or Munich is the best >place to buy it? > >Does it work on US ROMS or TOS 1.4? > >Thanks > >Chad I'd be very interested in ordering Turbo C from overseas. I'm also assuming Heismoth (sp?) is a German outfit. So my question is do they only have the docs & dialogs in German, or do they also have a British-English (the goofy one with all the U's) version ? Just a wonderin' Jon (Internet : jmccarty@ucsd.edu) (bitnet : jmccarty@ucsd -- I think) .
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (10/18/89)
Maybe because there isn't a "real" Turbo C for the ST? That takes some explaining. When Borland ported Turbo Pascal to the Mac, they did a real port, hired 680x0 experts, etc. This "Turbo C for the ST" is a third-party that made a C compiler for the ST and is having it marketed by Borland in certain countries. I'm sure this third-party has put a lot of effort into making it compatible with the MS-DOS "real" Turbo C. Now, the eighth-hand information that I've gotten (NOTE: DISCLAIMER: THIS ISN'T FIRST HAND INFORMATION) is that this third-party ST product is second rate... or at least it doesn't meet "American standards". If this is true, I'd understand why Borland wouldn't want to get embarrassed by shipping it here. (I am, obviously, writing this from the states). Then again, maybe they just don't have the (VERY BIG) staff required to properly support a product. Then again, maybe they're shooting for a different image than the ST can provide. Then again, maybe I should stop conjecturing and post this. -Tom -- Drew University -- Tom Limoncelli C M Box 1060 -- limonce@pilot.njin.net limonce@pilot.rutgers.edu P O Box 802 -- tlimonce@drunivac.Bitnet <<<-has a "T" in it. Madison, NJ 07940 -- 201-408-5389 ...!rutgers!njin!limonce
robert@duttnph.tudelft.nl (Robert de Vries) (10/19/89)
In article <Oct.18.00.32.35.1989.28642@pilot.njin.net> limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: >When Borland ported Turbo Pascal to the Mac, they did a real port, >hired 680x0 experts, etc. This "Turbo C for the ST" is a third-party >that made a C compiler for the ST and is having it marketed by Borland >in certain countries. I'm sure this third-party has put a lot of >effort into making it compatible with the MS-DOS "real" Turbo C. The company which sells Turbo C for the ST in Europe was called "Heimsoeth" and NOW calls itself BORLAND GmbH. I assume that Borland in the US does know about it. Secondly the code for the parser on the ST is the same code used for the compiler on the PC. >Now, the eighth-hand information that I've gotten (NOTE: DISCLAIMER: >THIS ISN'T FIRST HAND INFORMATION) is that this third-party ST product >is second rate... or at least it doesn't meet "American standards". OK let's have some "American standards" :-) (this is going to be fun) Laser C Lattice C Word Perfect for the ST (buggy !!!!) All "good ol' American" compilers are inferior to the Turbo C compiler. Not because of the all American parser of Turbo C blows them out of the water, but because the people in Germany have put a considerable amount of effort of making a code generator which produces good and fast code. >If this is true, I'd understand why Borland wouldn't want to get >embarrassed by shipping it here. Maybe because they cannot make such a fine product with a giant staff. > (I am, obviously, writing this from >the states). Then again, maybe they just don't have the (VERY BIG) >staff required to properly support a product. Then again, maybe >they're shooting for a different image than the ST can provide. >Then again, maybe I should stop conjecturing and post this. I am obviously writing from Europe (The Netherlands) and I have the compiler installed on my computer. The only other compiler I sometimes use is Mark Williams C (only for the source level debugger), but when BORLAND GmbH releases the Turbo C source level debugger somewhere at the end of this year, I will also abandon that compiler. I must emphasize that I do not work for Borland in Germany or get any money for this from anyone. The AIM-people bought it for development of the program and it gave the best performance of all C compilers we tested (MWC, Laser C, Megamax C, Lattice C). I am VERY pleased with this product, and I think people in the States should also profit from the excellent software which is developed in other countries. The Atari ST is a very popular computer here and it is somewhat logical that also very much software gets released here. So don't be afraid, pick up the phone, call Borland in Germany, tell them you want their compiler and try it for yourself! The phonenumber is in one of my previous articles. Robert
as@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Stevens) (10/19/89)
You can certainly exclude ``lack of quality'' as a reason why Borland aren't marketing Heimsoeth's Turbo-C outside Germany. It has become something of a hot property on the ripped-off softwate circuit in this country *despite* being in German. What have seen of ripped-off copies suggests it is probably the best C compiler / environment around for the ST at the moment. Good editor,effective shell, good debugger, a decent assembler, a stand-alone compiler and linker for command line work, narry a bug, fast compilation, fast code, ... This is a class package (made in W.Germany?). I can only encourage those hardy ST anglo-american ST users who're going to buy it anyway to do so. The software is pretty much self-documenting anyway - even with menu's in German. I can only assume Borland's reluctance to market this *product* (only a bit of tech. translation required to sell) is due some brand of technical or national chauvinism. It is, after all, a well known fact that people in the old-world can't understand computers. Big-important-serious-business-expensive-company-itis may also play a role. Andrew Stevens PS How about organising a short English summary of the manual over the net? Evidence of honest ownership would of course have to be supplied to the translator. I'd be happy to do the translating but can't afford Turbo yet (Sozobon for a few months more). If anyone is interested in loaning a manual please e-mail. IT WILL NOT BE PHOTO-COPIED ETC - turn-around 1 week.
roland@pcsbst.UUCP (roland) (10/19/89)
Let me add some corrections & explanations concerning Turbo C ST ( I use it, and I have talked to the people at Borland Germany ) limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: >When Borland ported Turbo Pascal to the Mac, they did a real port, >hired 680x0 experts, etc. This "Turbo C for the ST" is a third-party >that made a C compiler for the ST Partly true: TC ST started as a independent developpement, but has been taken over by Borland Germany; at least the stand-alone CPP and the parser part are said to be _now_ (replaced by) direct ports of TC PC. ( You can see this by TC STs ability to (optionally) recognize keywords like 'far' or 'huge'. ) Code generation, editor et. are independent products. >and is having it marketed by Borland in certain countries. Borland is not a single entity: Borland GmbH, the German distributor of Turbo software incl. TC ST, is - I think - quite independent of Borland USA ( they just switched their name, which was "Heimsoeth GmbH" before ). Borland US doesn't make ST software, Borland GmbH does. [ By the way, since TC ST is priced very low, dealers have only a small margin, so they often do not carry it ( or have outdated versions ). I got mine via mailorder ( really: I called them, they _reserved_ my item, so 3 days later(!) I could drop in and fetch it ) from Borland GmbH, and they do international mailorders too. I think there is an english speaking version of program+manual+onlinehelp available. ] >Now, the eighth-hand information that I've gotten (NOTE: DISCLAIMER: >THIS ISN'T FIRST HAND INFORMATION) is that this third-party ST product >is second rate... or at least it doesn't meet "American standards". Nooo. There have been some bugs in version 1.00 - You wouldn't have thought so :-) - but now version 1.10 is out and ok. TC ST is a better compiler than I dared to dream of before! ( Ok, I have some personal objections against their integrated editor, so I don't use it, preferring Tempus instead. ) >Then again, maybe they just don't have the (VERY BIG) >staff required to properly support a product. Then again, maybe >they're shooting for a different image than the ST can provide. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in the USA ! Remember, there are vast differences in the image the ST got in the US and in Europe: here you find STs almost everywhere in the scientific and technical sector ( see this article about the brand new lab equipment - they use a ST to controll it; see the picture of the famous Prof. VeryImportant at his working place - and the ST on his desk; GEC recently proudly presented their new LCD car display showing a digitized odometer - but what are those little drawer icons near the left edge :-) You get the picture. I know that You believe You understand what You think I said, but I'm not sure You realize that what You heard is not what I meant. Roland Rambau rra@cochise.pcs.com, {unido|pyramid}!pcsbst!rra, 2:507/414.2.fidonet
suhonen@tukki.jyu.fi (Timo Suhonen) (10/20/89)
In article <Oct.18.00.32.35.1989.28642@pilot.njin.net> limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: >is second rate... or at least it doesn't meet "American standards". What are these American standards?? Timo -- Timo Suhonen suhonen@tukki.jyu.fi Disclaimer: The text above is from my left brain cell. The right one is for SeX and Drugs and Rock'n Roll. Al K. Hall has eaten the others...
peterii@nadia.UUCP (Peter Bechtold) (10/20/89)
In article <1357@sdcc13.ucsd.edu> pa1038@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Jon McCarty) writes: >In article <1547@hiatus.dec.com> chad@norge.enet.dec.com (chad leigh) writes: >> >>I'm going to Germany in January and would like to get Turbo C for my ST. What >>is a fair price for it and where in Frankfurt, Stuttgartm or Munich is the best >>place to buy it? I know a place in Stuttgart, it's SCHREIBER, the biggest ATARI store in the area. Just ask someone in Stuttgart, or look in the local telephone directory. (Or call me when you are in Stuttgart ..., number in my signature !) >>Does it work on US ROMS or TOS 1.4? It works with TOS 1.4, i don't what about the US-versions. >>Thanks Oh, no trouble. >I'd be very interested in ordering Turbo C from overseas. I'm also assuming >Heismoth (sp?) is a German outfit. So my question is do they only >have the docs & dialogs in German, or do they also have a >British-English (the goofy one with all the U's) version I don't need that --> I don't know ! But the company which sells the Borland products in Germany is calles HEIMSOETH located in Munich (they don't have a shop there, Chad ...) pii -- # Peter Bechtold # Th.-Mann-Str.91 # D 7000 Stuttgart 30 # West Germany # # voice: +49 711 813240 # data: N/A # telex: (0402) 6101056 mac lu # # ..!uunet!unido!nadia!peterii # peterii@nadia.UUCP #