JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) (10/22/89)
In article <46587ca5.14a1f@force.UUCP>, covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes: > In article <CMM.0.88.624863922.cmm1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu>, cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: >> Well, unless you are a diehard Atari fan (I know, there are still a few >> left), I would advise you to buy the 25mhz 386 now (if you do indeed >> need it now). Besides, if you want to use it for work you would be >> much better off with an industry standard 386 rather than the TT (if it >> ever does hit the market). You'll be able to get software for nearly >> every application at reasonable cost and not have to worry about the >> lagging support of Atari Corp and vaporware promises. It is really to >> bad. The 68030 is such a nice mpu compared to the Intel mpu's. (add ^ >> an o here) Besides, who needs another workstation with non-industry >> standard 16 bit slots. C'mon...what a waste...Although I would like to >> see the TT fly, I don't think you will see it happen (That is IF you >> ever see a TT up close and personal...Ha!) What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the same traditional tracks. I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt or something...) > > > Not only are 80386 PC computers available there have been some really great > prices in misc.forsale for 25 MHZ 80386 computers with 1024 x 768 x 16colors > color graphics. something beyond the power of a TT, I believe. How come that is beyond the power of a TT? For even the ST is NOW available a graphics card with resolution 1280x1024 with 16 colours from palette of 262144. And this is not the only one. I doubt a 25MHz 386 is any faster than a TT. > Also, the ads > I have seen indicate that the 80386 PCs have 32 bit, 16 bit, and 8 bit > motherboard busses, so can use a whole spectrum of IBM PC plugin boards (things > like hard disk on a card, internal modems, additional serial i/o, eprom > burners, geez just all sorts of things that Atari customers are too cheap > to want to buy!!). > What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all off those devices for ST's and TT's, too. > So, that kinda leaves Atari and the VaporWare TT/P (for Plastic, sheez what > a great name for a computer. A Plastic computer. Oh boy!!) for someone else to > buy!! Can't you make up better arguments that ones that are based on a computer's name? > >> >> Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular >> red fruit <grin>) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can >> actually see and touch it!), I can't believe how slow my ST seems in >> comparison. All I use my ST for now is Air warrior and an occasional >> game. Best of luck in your computer search! >> >> Chris Mauritz Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go? > So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari that won't > be expandable and will be margin in other aspects. > How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI, too. I think Atari has done a great job bringing computers affordable. Even if I should wait for my new computer a bit longer, it's worth the effort because I can get it many times cheaper than from other manufacturers. I, for my part, will always support economic technology.... Jouni Alkio University of Helsinki, Finland
scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) (10/23/89)
cmm1@CUNIXA.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (Christopher M Mauritz) writes: Well, unless you are a diehard Atari fan (I know, there are still a few left), I would advise you to buy the 25mhz 386 now (if you do indeed need it now). Besides, if you want to use it for work you would be much better off with an industry standard 386 rather than the TT (if it ever does hit the market). The 68030 is such a nice mpu compared to the Intel mpu's. That's for certain. The context is much nicer! [...] Besides, who needs another workstation with non-industry standard 16 bit slots. Got that right. <1049@cc.helsinki.fi> JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds: What makes the 386 an industry standard? As far as I know, there are very few programs especially for it. The more people keep supporting only the PC-line (XT, AT, 386...), the more technology has to go along the same traditional tracks. I don't know about Finland, but here there are more PC's on desktops for the small business and home user than loose paperclips :-). Seriously, the amount of PC's abound is sickening. If it's not an industry standard, tell me what is. Besides, you said more people supporting one line, the more technology has to go along the same tracks ... doesn't this sound like industry standardization? (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) continues: I have got every program I've needed for my Atari ST this far. Usually they are more user-friendly than their PC-counterparts. I think it is stupid to speculate about if the TT is coming or not. They have already introduced it in Germany. (And if it wouldn't come, Atari could soon be in bankrupt or something...) I also have just about every program I've needed for my Atari ST, too. Almost every. There are things for our SUNs that I wouldn't mind having, but my biggest hang up is the fact that the same programs available on other machines are so much more powerful, nicer, AVAILABLE, and supported. If Atari's listening, Varsinainen's made a good point within parentheses above. I'm not sure if bankrupt is the word. Maybe lynched by its user base (excluding the fanatics). Richard Covert writes: Not only are 80386 PC computers available there have been some really great prices in misc.forsale for 25 MHZ 80386 computers with 1024 x 768 x 16colors color graphics. something beyond the power of a TT, I believe. (Varsinainen sikapossu kuoli t{n{{n.) responds: How come that is beyond the power of a TT? For even the ST is NOW available a graphics card with resolution 1280x1024 with 16 colours from palette of 262144. And this is not the only one. I doubt a 25MHz 386 is any faster than a TT. Or just get a SUN 3/260 or a Sparcstation, a blow both away. Much more expensive, true. But SunOS UNIX is truly superb. Also, I know of a few 25MHz 386's that could beat a TT. Richard Covert continues: Also, the ads I have seen indicate that the 80386 PCs have 32 bit, 16 bit, and 8 bit motherboard busses, so can use a whole spectrum of IBM PC plugin boards (things like hard disk on a card, internal modems, additional serial i/o, eprom burners, geez just all sorts of things that Atari customers are too cheap to want to buy!!). To which Varsiinainen replies: What's so important in having INTERNAL modems, etc... You can buy all off those devices for ST's and TT's, too. Just take a look at my desk, and you'll see the advantage of INTERNAL stuff. I've got my 1040 sitting on it. A huge cable comes out for my external disk drive, which is also propped up vertically against the wall behind the desk; I've got another cable coming out to the Atari EXTERNAL harddrive that's too big for 20 Meg, and sounds like a 747 during takeoff. Then I've got another cable coming out to my EXTERNAL modem. And, finally, cables going out to my printer and my two monitors. It's a mess! If my 1040 were more like a Mega (which is also too small), and if I could put the harddrive, diskdrive, and modem all inside it on CARDS, I'd just have to worry about hiding the cable for the printer---and that's easy by just throwing it behind the bloody CPU box with its nice INTERNAL cards. Covert continues: So, that kinda leaves Atari and the VaporWare TT/P (for Plastic, sheez what a great name for a computer. A Plastic computer. Oh boy!!) for someone else to buy!! To which Varsinainen replies: Can't you make up better arguments that ones that are based on a computer's name? Richard is not saying the the name of the bloody thing is something that should be taken into account. He's merely making an editorial comment about Atari's choice to call the TT/P the `Plastic.' I agree with him: Oh boy! A Plastic computer! Chris writes: Now that I've got my own little 68030 worksation (named after a popular red fruit <grin>) and have it actually in front of me (yes, you can actually see and touch it!). Varsinainen says: Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go? Chris is not comparing an Apple II to an ST. In fact, I don't know of any Apple II that has a 68030. He OBVIOUSLY means his Mac. Get a clue :-) And my ST can NEVER beat the nearby Mac II in terms of speed or graphics. Richard says: So, from past experience we can expect a CHEAP 68030 machine from Atari that won't be expandable and will be margin in other aspects. Sounds right. When I was still a fanatic, I was convinced that the Atari was the most powerful computer out for the price. For only a few hundred dollars more (I had the money) I could have gotten (ack) an Amiga (oh no!). Or something that has support. Dare I say it? Yes, a Mac. Varsinainen replies: How come won't be expandable??? You can even expand a ST very well, even if it doesn't actually have ANY card slots... By the way, remember MIDI, too. Sure I guess you can expand an ST `very well,' but it isn't easy. You just don't lift the cover a drop in a card. You lift the cover, desolder a chip, patch a jumper, solder a socket, pay through the nose for parts, and labor if you don't know how. I remember MIDI. That's about the only thing Atari's got going for the ST line. I avoid Intel like the plague, but my next Motorola box will NOT be Atari. Yes, the ST's are inexpensive. That's great. If you want it now, though, forget it. And support? I've sent out all the warranty cards I could from my Atari stuff, and I've never gotten a single brochure from Atari, or a newsletter, or anything. I wonder if there's anybody back there. Authorized repair centers? We don't need no stinking authorized repair centers! Just remember: (Power Without the Price) = (You Get What You Pay For) Pipe flames to /dev/null.
stephen@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Stephen Whitney) (10/23/89)
FYI, I just read on GEnie that the name of the "TT" is to be the MegaStation.
Sounds a lot nicer that TT. Give it a name that's at least a real word.
Steve Whitney "It's never _really_ the last minute" (())_-_(())
UCLA Comp. Sci. Grad. Student | (* *) |
Internet: stephen@cs.ucla.edu UCLA Bruin--> { \_@_/ }
GEnie: S.WHITNEY `-----' gl8f@astsun8.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (10/23/89)
In article <3364@nmtsun.nmt.edu> scksnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Sean Kelly) writes: [ A large flame, deleted. ] > Pipe flames to /dev/null. Why don't we all follow this advice? The TT is not out in user hands yet, so we don't know what the price or performance is yet. Pipe flame postings to /dev/null also. -- greg ------ Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu I'm not the NRA.
stefan@db7.CS.Concordia.CA (BUCHHOLZ) (10/23/89)
> [blah blah blah hahaha my pc cost $10000 blah blah blah] >is working on this new nifty sportscar? Of course, I've never seen one >and the company only produces cheap cars now with little or no support. > What the hell, sounds like a bargain to me?" Why pick on these religious Atari freaks, are you a religious Mac freak? You made the same mistake they made 3 yrs ago when they bought an ST. You won't feel it now, but you will in the summer of 92'. What is the word of the future? EXPANDABILITY. That's why I chose the Amiga... >Meannwhile, back at the ranch, JoShmoe can buy a 25mhz 386 box with >super VGA, hard disk and all the niceties (yes, even unix) for about >3-3K. AND he can buy it NOW when he needs it. <If you don't actually >NEED the power, you might as well wait for the <snicker> TT>. >Chris Mauritz >p.s. If this sounds like Atari bashing <grin>, I guess it is. You wouldn't be able to show your face in comp.sys.amiga because you'd be stepped on by Amix's that are outperforming your pc at 1/2 the price... ****************************************************************************** * * * My lady friend does lots of wonderful things for me, and all at once!! * * * * Stefan Buchholz * ******************************************************************************
moreno@umn-cs.CS.UMN.EDU (Andres Moreno) (10/23/89)
I think that this argument regarding what machine is better is going nowhere.
It seems that some people like their computer the same way they like their
children: blindly. There is no question that you get more crunch for your
money in the IBM world NOW. You can pick up a 12Mhz AT compatible with a
30Mb hard disk for $1200. You can also get the famous hot 386 box for under
$2000. Atari prices just aren't what they used to be. The world changes. I
don't program the way I used to. Now, instead of assembler, I use C. If I
want to have fun, I use LISP. Let me tell you that I have the nicest ST
lisp in the world and does not hold a candle to PC-Scheme. Therefore, for
me, (* I am not saying for everyone *) a hot PC is a better machine. This
was not the case a few years ago.
If you feel that you must uphold the Atari name, please go to your
nearest Tramiel temple (i.e. Atari dealer) and give a donation.
Andres
P.S. If the famed TT does beat the price/performance of the 386 box *and*
I can get good software support for it, I am willing to eat my words,
but until then, let me propose you look at the facts.SML108@PSUVM.BITNET (10/23/89)
On the subject of all this TT controversy, I've finally decided to add my 12 1/2 cents. Yeah Atari has been a glorious band of idiots ever since the 1040ST but even if it takes them another 6 months to get it out, the TT is an INCREDIBLE machine for the price. A comparably equipped 68030 Amiga will run you $4500 (Hint, buy a a MAC II for $500 more with hard drive). I am very disappointed in its graphic capabilities, but sheesh, the base computer will onyl be around $1500. This guarantees its survival as this is just as incredible as the ST when it came out. Even with Commodore's huge advertising blitz, the junkola Amiga 500 with 512K of memory is being pushed for $100 less than a 1040ST with monitor. I know what I'd buy.... Now before I get Commodore flamed, I LIKE THE AMIGA ! However, the 500 is garbage, the 520ST of the Amiga line, only slightly worse (I use a 2000 myself). Oh well, I have spoken my bit.....
ritchie@hpldola.HP.COM (Dave Ritchie) (10/23/89)
>Why compare an Apple with 68030 to an ST?!?! Compare a MAC to a ST and >compare their price, too! A ST costs only less than a third of a rival >MAC, at least here in Finland. You can still emulate a MAC with a ST >even faster than a real MAC. Where does all that extra money Apple takes go? Well, right now it is going to repair their buildings. A friend of mine in Sunnyvale said that he had heard that 60% of their buildings had been damaged by the quake. Dave
david@bdt.UUCP (David Beckemeyer) (10/24/89)
[ It's probably stupid to get in the middle of this but, oh well,
here I go again. :-) ]
One thing I haven't seen brought up in this debate yet is the idea
of "shrink-wrapped configuration". What I mean by that is the way
somebody can buy a 386 box and the necessary boards and software to
set it up in a certain configuration using "over the counter" stuff
that is easy to get from a wide assortment of vendors and is generally
well supported.
I go into a lot of companies to do consulting where there are a bunch
of different types of computers, mostly running Unix. The thing about
PC-type 386 boxes is that you can get almost ANYTHING for the damned
things. Buy a box, somebody's Unix, an ethernet card, a SCSI card,
a graphics card, a scanner card, etc. etc. and you've got a usable
workstation - all with "plug-and-go" stuff, in a usable package.
You've got your PC on your net with your Suns etc. all with relatively
inexpensive and well supported products - and you have a wide choice
of vendors - and it actually works.
From the Atari die-hards in the peanut gallery, you'll hear "yea but you
can do that with the Atari too!". No way. I don't ever see Atari
getting the kind of 3rd party software/hardware support we have here
in the USA (maybe none of this applies to Europe, I don't know) for
the PC-type 386 boxes. As much as I *hate* the Intel junk and PC's
in general, I have to admit that there's no beating them in this area.
A TT with some limited connectivity and 3rd party support will sell
to a limited audience. There's a lot of catching up to do and I
just don't see Atari spending the resources to do it here in the USA.
Every year Sig says "I'm sorry for the poor support in the USA last
year... This year we are Really going after the US market." Hasn't
anyone tired of this yet? Does anybody still believe Atari gives
a damn about the US market? Why should they? The US market couldn't
give a damn about them.
--
David Beckemeyer (david@bdt.UUCP) | "Lester Moore - Four slugs from a .44
Beckemeyer Development Tools | no Les, no more."
478 Santa Clara Ave. Oakland, CA 94610 | - Headstone at Boot Hill
UUCP: {uunet,ucbvax}!unisoft!bdt!david | Tombstone, AZlsr@Apple.COM (Larry Rosenstein) (10/25/89)
In article <11830059@hpldola.HP.COM> ritchie@hpldola.HP.COM (Dave Ritchie) writes: > Well, right now it is going to repair their buildings. A friend of mine > in Sunnyvale said that he had heard that 60% of their buildings had been > damaged by the quake. Untrue. 50% of Apple's buildings were fully operational on the Thursday after the earthquake, and all but one are operational as of Monday. Larry Rosenstein, Apple Computer, Inc. Object Specialist Internet: lsr@Apple.com UUCP: {nsc, sun}!apple!lsr AppleLink: Rosenstein1
Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com (10/28/89)
Jouni Alkio says: >I think Atari has done a great job bringing computers affordable. Even >if I should wait for my new computer a bit longer, it's worth the effort >because I can get it many times cheaper than from other manufacturers. True... you can probably get a PDP 8 pretty cheaply now.. or maybe a KIM-1 single board computer.. Unfortunately, Atari Corp seems to have an almost eerie talent for bringing us yesterday's technology at today's prices.. If you wait ( and wait, and wait, and wait) for Atari Corp to stop playing "games" with PC pocket clones and video games and to begin seriously addressing their neglected computer market, you'll probably also have one of the few "nonstandard" computers left in the world... Will your company's President approve a purchase order for "Atari Computers" because they make the "third rate" video games in the world..? BobR
JALKIO@cc.helsinki.fi (Jouni Alkio) (10/29/89)
In article <23453@cup.portal.com>, Bob_BobR_Retelle@cup.portal.com writes: > > Unfortunately, Atari Corp seems to have an almost eerie talent for bringing > us yesterday's technology at today's prices.. People still buy ST's and MAC's, they are much the same technology (exept that a low-end ST runs faster than a low-end MAC, and has better graphics etc...). Today's prices for ST's are still cheaper than for comparable MAC's (much cheaper if you take the street prices). > > If you wait ( and wait, and wait, and wait) for Atari Corp to stop playing > "games" with PC pocket clones and video games and to begin seriously > addressing their neglected computer market, you'll probably also have one of > the few "nonstandard" computers left in the world... Do you think introducing a PC-pocket clone is playing. Many people really want to buy one. Do you mean that Atari should only introduce computers - not video games? I think it's nice that a company can bring up many different kinds of devices. Do refer to the TT as nonstandard? Is UNIX not a standard?!?! What about all the ST programs there are?? Haven't you heard of the Stacy and the ATW? They are not video games. > Will your company's President approve a purchase order for "Atari Computers" > because they make the "third rate" video games in the world..? I certainly would not work for a company that has such a President! I don't really like prejudiced people. And I know many companies don't care how much their computers cost - they just follow the ad's and keep up their "image". (I think it's much the same as buying expensive clothes.) There are brighter companies, too... And by the way, I don't think I'll work for a company at all. I don't want to be ruled by stupid people. Perhaps I'll be a freelancer or a free artist or something... (If I will not find a company useful and interesting enough.) I don't like that computers are being used to "make profit" etc. (Well, I guess this was a bit too "politic" for this newsgroup....) Jouni Alkio
buggs@cup.portal.com (William Edward JuneJr) (11/12/89)
This is the second time I saw Atari in a copy of Unix World. On page 69 of the latest issue, it shows the desktop manager Atari chose for the TT. It's from a company from France. Sorry I don't have many particulars, I left the mag at work......... Ed June