steveg@SAIC.COM (Stephen Harold Goldstein) (11/14/89)
Sorry to waste the bandwidth but, I can't keep quiet anymore.
I'm sick and tired of all the TT flames and Atari bashing going on.
It solves nothing and probably only serves to scare away anyone
thinking about buying an ST. If you must continue with this practice,
perhaps we can get a comp.sys.atari.st.bash area going. So far
Greg Lindahl has been just about the only voice of reason here, and now
he gets flamed. Shheeesh! (I'm with you Greg!)
I've been an Atari owner since November of 1980 when I got my
trusty Atari 800 (which I just reluctantly sold to finance another
hard drive for my ST). I bought a 1040 in February of '88 and
UPGRADED (my DEALER gave me a trade in allowance) to a Mega 4 with
the Atari Laser this past June. I made a careful decision about what
I was getting for my money. I knew Atari's reputation for support
(or lack thereof), and factored that in. I also knew Atari's
reputation for building solid, quality hardware. I have *NEVER*
had any hardware problems with any of my Atari equipment. I now have
a postscript capable system that can (and does) run ST, Mac, and
IBM software for less than most postscript printers cost. I could
complain it doesn't run at 100MIPS, but that's not what I expected
or paid for.
Seems to me the people bitching at Atari have no one to blame but
themselves for not making a more careful decision before buying. If
the TT isn't what you want, DON'T BUY ONE! Come on, it's like you're
bitching at Ford because they won't sell you a Corvette (a product
they don't make), or because your Escort can't outrun a Ferrari (do
something you should know it can't). Find another manufacturer and
leave us alone. I've gotten what I've wanted/paid for out of every
Atari machine I've owned. This is NOT blind loyalty mind you. I
think there's a WORLD of things Atari management could do to get the
ST more exposure and more widely accepted, but that's not my job.
Historically, Atari has always made neat hardware and botched the
marketing. But as Greg said, they ARE making money selling computers
- maybe not in the U.S., but that just means I'll have European sales
to thank for keeping the company around long enough for me think about
them the next time I'm looking for a computer. And if it's a TT, I
*DO* have a choice about slots - if I don't want/plan to expand, I can
save a little money with a TT/P (why pay for slots I won't use?). If
I want slots there's the TT/x which costs more, but nothing in life is
free. That sounds right to me. TT/x cost too much? Not quite what
you want? BUY SOMETHING ELSE! Buy a Mac or PC and go bitch in some
other newsgroup!
<*heavy sigh of relief*>
Alternate proposal: How about comp.sys.atari.tech for serious technical
discussions and exchanges of information in a
civilized manner?
Please send all flames to alt.flames where I'll be happy to ignore them.
Constructive criticisms and discussion always welcome.
Stephen Goldstein steveg@saic.com
My first Atari system? A 24K Atari 800, Rev. A ROMS, C(not G)TIA graphics
Disclaimer: That's not what I said.gandet@mars.jpl.nasa.gov (Tom Gandet) (11/15/89)
In article <8911140141.AA02948@NARNIA.SAIC.COM> steveg@SAIC.COM (Stephen Harold Goldstein) writes: >Sorry to waste the bandwidth but, I can't keep quiet anymore. >I'm sick and tired of all the TT flames and Atari bashing going on. >It solves nothing and probably only serves to scare away anyone >thinking about buying an ST. If you must continue with this practice, >perhaps we can get a comp.sys.atari.st.bash area going. So far >Greg Lindahl has been just about the only voice of reason here, and now >he gets flamed. Shheeesh! (I'm with you Greg!) I'll second that, Steve. As a new 1040ST owner, I love the little beast, but I came damn close to buying something else because of all the anti-Atari flames here. I couldn't be more satisfied with what it does and how it does it. If I'd wanted an 50MHz '486 with 100 Gb, I'd've bought one... As for gripes about "late" product releases, you finally learn that a product ISN'T a product until you can buy it... >Not quite what you want? BUY SOMETHING ELSE! Buy a Mac or PC and go bitch >in some other newsgroup! > Right! New newsgroup votes, anyone? Tom Gandet Telos/Jet Propulsion Lab - NASA gandet@mars.jpl.nasa.gov Work: (818) 351-2341 x239
mike@system.Cambridge.NCR.COM (mike reiss) (11/15/89)
In article <8911140141.AA02948@NARNIA.SAIC.COM> steveg@SAIC.COM (Stephen Harold Goldstein) writes: . . . >I'm sick and tired of all the TT flames and Atari bashing going on. . . . >Greg Lindahl has been just about the only voice of reason here, and now >he gets flamed. Shheeesh! (I'm with you Greg!) Finally, a message that isn't a flame !!! Isn't this heat getting old already. If you not happy with Atari, why tell us. We've been there. Go tell someone who wants to hear it. Me ??? I want some information about the Atari ST computer. Not complaints about the company !!! Make that three of us and probably a lot more who are tired of all the griping. . . . >. . . I made a careful decision about what >I was getting for my money. I knew Atari's reputation for support >(or lack thereof), and factored that in. I also knew Atari's >reputation for building solid, quality hardware. I have *NEVER* >had any hardware problems with any of my Atari equipment. I now have . . . > > <*heavy sigh of relief*> > >Alternate proposal: How about comp.sys.atari.tech for serious technical > discussions and exchanges of information in a > civilized manner? > Nah !!! Let's just clean up our act on this group. How about it, I won't complain if you don't !!! I really would like for this to be a worthwhile group. If it turns into an Atari bashing group it could die under its own weight. Let's not let that happen. >Please send all flames to alt.flames where I'll be happy to ignore them. >Constructive criticisms and discussion always welcome. > >Stephen Goldstein steveg@saic.com >My first Atari system? A 24K Atari 800, Rev. A ROMS, C(not G)TIA graphics >Disclaimer: That's not what I said. Thanks Stephen mike
gdtltr@sun.acs.udel.edu (Gary D Duzan) (11/15/89)
How about a comp.sys.atari.flame? :-]
Gary Duzan
Time Lord
Third Regeneration
Atari Enthusiast Extreme
--
_o_ _o_
[|o o|] "Two hearts are better than one." -- Yes [|o o|]
|_O_| "Don't listen to me; I never do." -- Doctor Who |_O_|andyc@hplsla.HP.COM (Andy Cassino) (11/16/89)
Another vote fer quitcherbellyachin'.
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed herein are those solely of the author,
who has no pecuniary interest in the companies mentioned.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
% Andy Cassino %
% uucp: hplabs!hplsla!andyc domain: andyc%hplsla@hplabs.hp.com %
% Hewlett-Packard Lake Stevens Instrument Division %
% 8600 Soper Hill Road Everett, WA 98205-1298 %
% (206) 335-2211 %
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%mark@rpp386.cactus.org (Mark Lehmann) (11/16/89)
About having a comp.atari.st.tech group: Would everyone on the net want to have Atari officially answer technical questions on the NET? I have seen other companies start to do this and it distresses me. I feel that the USE NET should be kept the USE NET not the Interactive Systems Net, not the IBM net, not the Atari NET. If they start officially doing their business here, message volume will greatly increase along with phone bills of the non-business nodes that are paying for the business expenses of communications, or rather an alternative to 800 number support lines. (Not saying that Atari has support lines already). Mark Lehmann :> -- +------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+ | Mark Lehmann | | | mark@rpp386.cactus.org | | | {bigtex|texbell}!rpp386!mark | |
rjk752@uxf.cso.uiuc.edu (11/16/89)
Another vote for an end to this consistent Atari-bashing. Maybe a radical design improvement suggestion or somesuch would be in order, but beating Atari to death with blunt words over the same issues time after time is getting very old in a hurry. If you want to put out specs, please keep any non-constructive (judgement call) comments to yourself. Some of the Bashers are just plain rude, they know they are just being petty irritants. Others might not realize they are being repetitive or talking about products they know little about. I agree with these last few notes, lets agree to clean up our act and get a little more constuctive. Thankyou.
rwa@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Ross Alexander) (11/20/89)
steveg@SAIC.COM (Stephen Harold Goldstein) writes: >Seems to me the people bitching at Atari have no one to blame but >themselves for not making a more careful decision before buying. If >the TT isn't what you want, DON'T BUY ONE! Good idea. I think I'll buy a PS/2 - then I can keep my software investment intact, right ? Or less tersely, many of us feel Atari is holding us hostage because although we could afford (easily) to go to another vendor for a hardware platform, we're trapped by our current software and data. I for one have easily $2,500 tied up in packages which work well, and with which I am happy, except that the hardware platform has been completely outstripped. I can't put a value on the data I have lying around at all - ghods know how many hours I have tied up in that. So I'm pretty well committed to going with Atari again. Unfortunately, Atari appears to think that this gives them the opportunity to ignore me, and to slant their market offerings to buyers at the low end, without losing the sale, and with no loss to themselves. I don't like that very much - I feel I'm simply being taken for granted. Anyone else out there feel like a captive too ? If I'd gone with Big Blue (ugh) I could get a real powerhouse clone now from any number of vendors and keep my software. This would be nice. As for Greg Lindahl, yourself, and the rest of the cheerleaders: what's _your_ investment in ST-line equipment? In software? In data that only makes sense in relation to the afore-mentioned software? In hours spent learning the twisties of programming in the AES/VDI/GDOS environment? I'm on the hook for quite a few $$$'s, and many, many hours. I've got a 1040, 85 meg drive, two monitors, jato board, memory upgrade, tons of other stuff, magic sack, I can't even keep track of it all. Have you noticed that many people expressing unhappiness w/Atari have similar large investments? I do not consider myself a casual complainer. Hell, I'm even a registered developer! I want to buy a real high-end cpu/video section. I don't see it yet; the tt/p comes close but lacks expansion. The tt/x may be it, but it's a little too far away to bank on. I see _lots_ of high end stuff from other vendors that I can't buy because I've already spent my money. Where's my upgrade path, d*mnit? Ross
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (11/20/89)
In article <1253@atha.AthabascaU.CA> rwa@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Ross Alexander) writes: [ describes how Atari had what he wanted a while ago, but that it hasn't kept up with what other companies have been doing... ] Well, this is a problem everywhere. Talk to all the science types who bought VAXes in 1980 only to have to convert to Unix because DEC wouldn't sell them fast boxes. And then DEC starts making fast VMS boxes again. >So I'm pretty well committed to going with Atari again. >Unfortunately, Atari appears to think that this gives them the >opportunity to ignore me, and to slant their market offerings to >buyers at the low end, without losing the sale, and with no loss to >themselves. Er, the TT isn't really much of a "low end machine" in any configuration. You can't sell millions of home computers if they cost over $2,000. So you have a curious definition of "low end". >As for Greg Lindahl, yourself, and the rest of the cheerleaders: >what's _your_ investment in ST-line equipment? In software? Well, first off, I'm hardly a cheerleader. I've NEVER said that I think the ST is a price/performance winner. And I've never said I thought Atari's marketing policy was good. I've only been playing devil's advocate and pointing out obvious flaws, hoping that the flame war will end. And, yes, I have a big investment: about 1/3 of my total material possessions is my ST. However, most of the software I use (terminal emulation, LaTeX, Maple, Fortran) is portable elsewhere. I've spent some time understanding GEM programming, but that is useful when I program on other windowing systems. I got what I paid for in the first place. >I want to buy a real high-end cpu/video section. I don't see it yet; >the tt/p comes close but lacks expansion. Wait until you see one. Then you'll know enough to make this statement. ------ Greg Lindahl gl8f@virginia.edu Astrophysicists for Choice.
krs@stag.UUCP (Kent Schumacher) (11/20/89)
This is a third vote for stopping the atari bashing.
- Kent Schumacher It's...
ardvar!krs@stag.UUCP
GEnie: K.SCHUMACHE1esp_05@jhunix.HCF.JHU.EDU (Stdnt 05) (11/21/89)
I just thought I'd put in two cents on the pro-Atari side. I started with a 520ST early on, didn't spend much on upgrades or software, just stuck with the oriignal Megamax C and First Word that came with my computer. I wasn't in too deep on the dollars side, but I spend huge amounts of time learning the system. Would I buy another Atari? Hell yes. In August I spent a pretty good wad for a Mega 2/50M HD/Spectre system. Although I've been developing programs on contract on IBMs for awhile (you cannot use PC DITTO for IBM development), I got a new contract for Mac work, and took a gamble that I could consolidate my Atari hobbiest past with my Mac development future. I couldn't be happier with my choice. For around the same price as a Mac SE at a college student discount, I got a machine that was a little less compatible with the real Mac world (at least hardware wise) but compatible enough, a little faster, with hardware that's a little better. Technically speaking, the equivilant of a Mac IIci isn't available in the Atari world, but speaking as a serious developer, what do I want with a Mac IIci? The company I did the contract for (an international software and textbook publisher) owns primarily Mac Plusses! Were I running fractals or ray tracing a Mac II or Atari equivalent would be nice, but as a serious developer, I can't say I really need it. Sure, you get faster compile times, but if you can honestly tell me you spend most of your time compiling programs instead of writing and editing them, you either write very short programs or you're a fast typist. I think I lost sight of the point of this exercize...oh yes. As a developer, I'm not sorry for spending all the time and money I did with Atari so they can "abandon" me and pursue new markets. The more new markets there are, the more money there is to be made for developers. And I can't gripe about the time I spent learning GEM--I went from never having touched a Mac to completing my first program, windows, dialog boxes and all, in about three weeks, and I attribute this to my experience with, and its similarity to, GEM. Would I run out and buy a TT if they came out tomorrow? Probably not--my Mega 2 serves me fine. Eric Ruck