JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV (11/28/89)
Subject: "Kneecapping" by developers and TOS piracy 1. Kneecapping. The conversation over a shareware alternative to the Spectre GCR seems to point up a tendency among some strains of Atari developers to pipe up and say "I can do what ..... only I can do it better". The result is that the software consumer is faced with a plethora of products and no information on which to make a valid judgement as to which is better. In short, it often seems that developers are trying to shoot one another in the kneecaps while the users shakes his head and wanders off, disgusted. This appraoch may also reflect a lack of creativity in some corners of the hacker world. It would be far better if users and developers could work together to iron out bugs and to improve existing products. If developers could find it in their hearts to make commitments to improve their products and if users would take a much more disciplined approach to documenting problems we might see growth rather than stagnation in the Atari software base. For those who wonder what I mean, let me suggest the following as projects worthy of development: Improvement or an alternative to the DMC LaserBrain to make it a truly viable Epson emulator for the SLM804. Most Epson users do not want to fret about fonts and the like. Just make it put the same amount of data on a page as the Epson does and make it understand all of the Epson escape sequences. Most Atari applications that output to the printer without fancy drivers (and there a lot of them) couch their ouptut in Epson terms. Ditto for an HP LaserJet emulator. Make several, each corresponding to the various plug-in font cartridges. Just make it work like and HP. How about an HPGL emulator for the SLM804? This would let us make proofs of drafting program output without having to have a pen plotter. How about a CLI that looks like VAX/VMS DCL? U**X missionaires might be appalled, but some folks might enjoy speaking plainly to their machines. How about devlopers' toolkit like Prototyper for the Mac? Let's make it so that anyone who can understand their problem can write a graphic interface for the program to solve it. How about a nice presentation graphics program like Cricket Graph or Igor from the Mac World? Many of us need to make publication quality graphs and charts. Degas is not good enough. I would like to hear about some genuine new products rather than vacuum ware (vaporware without any substance at all). 2. TOS 1.4 Piracy There is a persistent rumor arounmd here that Atari Germany basically countenanced the widespread priracy of TOS 1.4 ROMs. This rumor came to me from a well placed source within Atari Corp. An equally well-placed Atarian (since retired), who was sitting at the same table, expressed the opinion that this was actually a good idea, because it would result in this greatly improved technology being disseminated much more rapidly. Why Not, I ask? If people want to burn their own ROMS, why not let them? Atari should even provide diagnostic files that can be run to test the validity of user-generated ROMS. That way every serious user will soon be on the same footing and developers will no longer ve to fret about maintaining compatability with old releases. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are personal opinions held by the author of this piece and in no way reflect positions taken by his employer.
whack@nmsu.edu (Warren J Hack) (11/29/89)
In the previous post, it was commented that what was needed
was some commitment by developers to improve their porducts
and for there to be a wider variety of products porduced.
Some products were suggested including SLM drivers, graphics
packages, and so forth.
I would like to comment that some of the need for products like
the Spectre GCR and PC-Speed(and others like them) arises from
the fact that there is software available on those machines which
are in ways better developed that ST software. I congratulate
the developers of the emulators for making that software available
to ST users, but I must ask software developers to fill in the
gaps with ST software.
Personally, I am in need of a professional package to display data
for publication (akin to Mongo on the Sun's). As a result, I am
working to develop software on another machine with some other people
to do this. I would like to extend the invitation to more experienced
ST/GEM programmers to help me produce a ST version. It is this kind
collaboration that is necessary in the ST world. Aren't there enough
terminal emulation programs already!!??
I hope the ST developers group really gets going and takes the initiative
in this area. I would also hope that Atari would support such
development. Let's hear it for some variety and quality.
Warren J. Hack
Grad. Student
New Mexico State University
Internet: whack@nmsu.edu
Disclaimer: Only I am responsible for what I say (God help me).
Warren J. Hack Dept. of Astronomy, New Mexico State
whack@nmsu.edu "I'm just a poor grad. student"
{Insert std. disclaimer here} koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) (11/29/89)
In article <8911280802.AA18983@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV writes: >Why Not, I ask? If people want to burn their own ROMS, why not let >them? Atari should even provide diagnostic files that can be run to >test the validity of user-generated ROMS. I agree. I've been to two Atari dealers a number of times (most recently San Jose Computer a couple of hours ago, which is why I'm motivated to write this,) and have always been told that they were out of 1.4 ROMs. If I had a binary image of the thing, I could go put it on EPROMs and have it in my machine tonight, as could a number of Atari-owning friends of mine. I realize that Atari doesn't want to deal with trying to support hundreds of modified versions of 1.4, which would inevitably arise if the OS were released in this way. There are two solutions to that problem. The first, and easiest, is to put something like THIS CHIPSET IS PROVIDED AS A COURTESY TO THE ATARI COMMUNITY, AND IS NOT AN OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED RELEASE. ATARI ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR PROBLEMS ARISING FROM ITS USE. FOR THE LATEST OFFICIAL OPERATING SYSTEM RELEASE, SEE YOUR LOCAL DEALER. in the Desktop "About..." dialog box. Then Atari will be able to separate the real 1.4ers from the EPROMmed ones, and deal with each appropriately. (Actually, ideally the startup code would do a CRC or checksum on the OS image, inserting that message if it found a difference -- but putting it there all the time is fine, too.) The second is to really do interim OS releases on disk. Apple and Commodore have been doing that for years, and they haven't had the problems Atari is afraid of. I don't expect this to happen, but it would be nice. So far I've restrained myself from finding someone with 1.4 and just copying the whole kit and kaboodle to disk; I'd rather have an official set of chips. I imagine many others are in the same position. They, and I, aren't going to hold off much longer. Well, that's my turn on the soapbox. Standard disclaimer here. --- " !" - Marcel Marceau Steven Grimm Moderator, comp.{sources,binaries}.atari.st sgrimm@sun.com ...!sun!sgrimm
pegram@uvm-gen.UUCP (pegram r) (11/30/89)
From article <434@opus.NMSU.EDU>, by whack@nmsu.edu (Warren J Hack): > > In the previous post, it was commented that what was needed > was some commitment by developers to improve their products > and for there to be a wider variety of products produced. > Some products were suggested including SLM drivers, graphics > packages, and so forth. > I would like to comment that some of the need for products like > the Spectre GCR and PC-Speed(and others like them) arises from > the fact that there is software available on those machines which > are in ways better developed than ST software. I congratulate > the developers of the emulators for making that software available > to ST users, but I must ask software developers to fill in the > gaps with ST software. {specific request deleted} Hear, Hear! All I've been seeing is flames about hardware and the way Atari is run. We can do little about those things, but isn't there something we can do to turn around the small and shrinking (at least in the U.S.A.) applications software base? I can't find software titles that were out years ago, e.g. some compilers, an on-the-fly keyboard macro program, an outliner-word processor like More on the Mac (all there ever was was Hippo Concept), and new ones are not out there replacing them. If this doesn't change soon I may be forced to go to permanent emulation (haven't done it at all - yet ;-}). Constructive suggestions desired. > Let's hear it for some variety and quality. > > Warren J. Hack Dept. of Astronomy, New Mexico State > whack@nmsu.edu "I'm just a poor grad. student" Bob Pegram (pegram@griffin.uvm-gen.uvm.edu)
kirkenda@.cs.pdx.edu (Steve Kirkendall) (11/30/89)
In article <8911280802.AA18983@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV writes: >Why Not, I ask? If people want to burn their own ROMS, why not let >them? Atari should even provide diagnostic files that can be run to >test the validity of user-generated ROMS. I can certainly understand why Atari protects their ROMs... They do it for the same reason that Apple protects theirs. If Mac ROMs were freely redistributable, then Mac emulators would be EVERYWHERE! What would that do to Apple? Ah, you're thinking "Yes, but who in their right mind would want to emulate an ST?" Amiga owners, for one. About a month ago, there was a lot of traffic on comp.sys.amiga regarding a P.D. Atari ST emulator which DIDN'T WORK! It seems that the original version of the emulator (which was distributed on disk) had illegal copies of Atari ROMs stored on "unused" sectors of the disk. When somebody uploaded it, they forgot to upload the illegal ROMs. So anybody who downloaded the emulator got a useless package. Some people wondered if they were using it wrong. Some were angry because they had gone to a lot of trouble and still hadn't managed to steal anything. Some jokingly said "Yep, real Atari's work that way, too." Nobody said "This is wrong. We *shouldn't* copy Atari ROMs like this." >Why Not, I ask? If people want to burn their own ROMS, why not let >them? Atari should even provide diagnostic files that can be run to >test the validity of user-generated ROMS. Because they can't trust us to use them as Atari intended. Because they have a reputation to protect (such as it is). Because they don't want to support a product that doesn't earn them money. Because copyrights can be lost if they aren't enforced. Because parts of the ROMs are really copyrighted by DRI, not Atari. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Kirkendall, kirkenda@jove.cs.pdx.edu, uunet!tektronix!psueea!jove!kirkenda
neil@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Forsyth) (11/30/89)
(This is not a flame. I'm just using Steve's soapbox :-) In article <34850@grapevine.uucp> koreth@panarthea.ebay.sun.com (Steven Grimm) writes: >In article <8911280802.AA18983@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> JOHNBARNES@ENH.NIST.GOV >writes: >>Why Not, I ask? If people want to burn their own ROMS, why not let >>them? Atari should even provide diagnostic files that can be run to >>test the validity of user-generated ROMS. > >I agree. I've been to two Atari dealers a number of times (most recently San >Jose Computer a couple of hours ago, which is why I'm motivated to write >this,) and have always been told that they were out of 1.4 ROMs. With a dealer who's 'run out', you're closer than I am to having a chipset. >If I had a binary image of the thing, I could go put it on EPROMs and have it >in my machine tonight, as could a number of Atari-owning friends of mine. True. If I had a binary image of the thing I'd be Mr. Big in the UK. Personally I'm not sure I would trust an image that I did not take myself from an offical ROM chip. Other peoples mileage may vary. >I realize that Atari doesn't want to deal with trying to support hundreds of >modified versions of 1.4, which would inevitably arise if the OS were released >in this way. There are two solutions to that problem. The first, and easiest >, is to put something like > > THIS CHIPSET IS PROVIDED AS A COURTESY TO THE ATARI COMMUNITY, > AND IS NOT AN OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED RELEASE. ATARI ASSUMES NO > RESPONSIBILITY FOR PROBLEMS ARISING FROM ITS USE. FOR THE > LATEST OFFICIAL OPERATING SYSTEM RELEASE, SEE YOUR LOCAL DEALER. > >in the Desktop "About..." dialog box. Then Atari will be able to separate >the real 1.4ers from the EPROMmed ones, and deal with each appropriately. >(Actually, ideally the startup code would do a CRC or checksum on the OS >image, inserting that message if it found a difference -- but putting it >there all the time is fine, too.) Sounds good. But the messages and CRC code could be hacked. I guess only dealers should get the verification program. >The second is to really do interim OS releases on disk. Apple and Commodore >have been doing that for years, and they haven't had the problems Atari >is afraid of. I don't expect this to happen, but it would be nice. NO! I don't like the wasted memory, reloading it when I trample on it (this would happen a lot to me!) and the open invitation to viruses (The ROMs are a bit tight to squeeze in a virus I reckon) >So far I've restrained myself from finding someone with 1.4 and just copying >the whole kit and kaboodle to disk; I'd rather have an official set of chips. >I imagine many others are in the same position. They, and I, aren't going to >hold off much longer. A least you could do that. TOS 1.4 ROMs are never seen in the UK at all! My suggestion:- Make TOS free. Distribute original TOS ROM's to dealers only. They program the EPROMS and charge you for that. You feel better about the validity of your new ROMs. Distribution is quick, widespread and ordered. Developers can write apps that require TOS 1.4 or later and be sure that a lack of ROM's will not halt sales. The rapidity of bug fixe distribution would be good too! (Atari UK wouldn't like this idea because the words 'free', 'cheap' or even 'sensible' are not in their dictionary file. To them everything is a money making product :-) >Well, that's my turn on the soapbox. If the Rainbow TOSless UK ST owners follwed me to the soapbox then it would quickly turn to dust! >" !" - Marcel Marceau "" - Bob Katz (Developers Support Atari UK) :-) >Steven Grimm Moderator, comp.{sources,binaries}.atari.st >sgrimm@sun.com ...!sun!sgrimm Thanks you for your article. Food for thought. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ! DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise stated, the above comments are entirely my own ! ! ! ! "I think all right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of ! ! being told that ordinary decent people are fed up in this country with ! ! being sick and tired. I'm certainly not and I'm sick and tired of being ! ! told that I am!" - Monty Python ! ! ! ! Neil Forsyth JANET: neil@uk.ac.hw.cs ! ! Dept. of Computer Science ARPA: neil@cs.hw.ac.uk ! ! Heriot-Watt University UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!neil ! ! Edinburgh, Scotland, UK ! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+