MBERNAR@ERENJ.BITNET (mb) (12/21/89)
In a discussion on unexpandable mega ST's, kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu Kevin Clendenien states that Apple computers (he also mentioned another brand) need Apple peripherals and that they cost much more than Atari ST peripherals. I don't know if you've looked at the Apple side of things lately, but this just isn't true. First of all, Apple computers (specifically Mac's) don't need to use Apple peripherals. Maybe you're not aware that there are more third party peripheral suppliers for Macs than for ST. Just look in any Mac specific magazine and you'll be surprised to find how many brands of hard disks (internal and external), back-up tape drives, graphics display cards and monitors and floppy drives are available for the Mac. There are also alternatives to Apple Laserwriter and Imagewriter. Second point. Apple peripherals from third party suppliers are priced at least the same as Atari ST peripherals. In some cases, they are even cheaper on the Mac than on the ST. For example, look at hard drive prices. Quantum has an ad for a 20 Meg hard disk for $499 (Atari Explorer). You could buy a larger drive for the Mac for the same price (Cutting Edge: 20 Meg - $439. 30 Meg - $499). External floppy drive for the ST costs $149 (this is the cheapest I've seen). An equivalent Mac floppy drive costs the same. Of course memory is also cheaper on the Mac. It seems to me that the only thing cheaper on the Atari ST is the computer itself. I have a bare 1040STF at home and a new Mac IIci with loads of stuff at work. Regards, Marcelino Bernardo mbernar@erenj.bitnet
clf3678@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.L. Freemesser) (12/25/89)
In article <8912210835.AA07308@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> MBERNAR@ERENJ.BITNET (mb) writes: >In a discussion on unexpandable mega ST's, kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu >Kevin Clendenien states that Apple computers (he >also mentioned another brand) need Apple peripherals and that they cost much >more than Atari ST peripherals. I don't know if you've looked at the Apple >side of things lately, but this just isn't true. Yes it is.... >First of all, Apple computers (specifically Mac's) don't need to use Apple >peripherals. Maybe you're not aware that there are more third party peripheral >suppliers for Macs than for ST. Just look in any Mac specific magazine >and you'll be surprised to find how many brands of hard disks (internal and >external), back-up tape drives, graphics display cards and monitors and >floppy drives are available for the Mac. There are also alternatives to >Apple Laserwriter and Imagewriter. Find a 3rd party Apple floppy drive that is totally compatible with the Apple drives, and I'll show you a snowball that survived a trip through hell.... Sure there are alternatives to the Imagewriter, but the I-writer is the most used. Ergo, it is the most supported by software. >Second point. Apple peripherals from third party suppliers are priced >at least the same as Atari ST peripherals. In some cases, they are even >cheaper on the Mac than on the ST. For example, look at hard drive prices. Let us not forget that the Mac has the SCSI board ST users need built in. For the IIgs and other Apples, you spend $120 for this board. >Quantum has an ad for a 20 Meg hard disk for $499 (Atari Explorer). You could >buy a larger drive for the Mac for the same price (Cutting Edge: 20 Meg - $439. >30 Meg - $499). External floppy drive for the ST costs $149 (this is the >cheapest I've seen). An equivalent Mac floppy drive costs the same. Of course >memory is also cheaper on the Mac. Tell that to my friend who bought a new 3.5 inch Apple drive. The retail price is $400! I spent about $100 building one for myself. As for hard disks, I built one for my father's 1040...a 20 meg Seagate, Adaptek, and ICD host adapter for $350. Beat that on a Mac. >It seems to me that the only thing cheaper on the Atari ST is the computer >itself. I have a bare 1040STF at home and a new Mac IIci with loads of stuff >at work. No kidding. Atari planned it to be less expensive. In my little bits of hardware hacking on the ST, I've found it to be a VERY versatile computer. I can add IBM drives, generic power supplies (as this Lambda 12A supply shows....my drives are connected to it too), and joe-schmo printers and modems. I have STANDARD ports for these. The Mac has those dopey 8-pin Apple plugs. I can even open up my ST. That damn Mac has those recessed Torx screws. PLUS, I can have color AND monochrome on my machine. Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology :BITNET:%clf3678@RITVAX ||| ____________ :GEnie: C.FREEMESSER ||| /___ / (and 8-bit too!) :USENET: clf3678@rit.isc / | \ ______/ / : .edu Call the A.C.O.R.N BBS (716)436-3078, 300/1200 baud :<-or my BBS
MBERNAR@ERENJ.BITNET (Marcelino Bernardo) (01/03/90)
rochester!rit!ultb!clf3678@rutgers.edu (C.L. Freemesser) disagrees with my statement that Apple (specifically Mac) peripherals are not limited to the Apple brand and that the prices are comparable to those for the ST. "Find a 3rd party Apple floppy drive that is totally compatible with the Apple drives, and I'll show you a snowball that survived a trip through hell.... " I don't have personal experience with third party Apple floppy drives so I can't argue this point. I'm only familiar with the Mac line, and have spe- cifically limited my comments to this. Are you referring to Mac or Apple II drives? What are you basing this statement on? "Sure there are alternatives to the Imagewriter, but the I-writer is the most used. Ergo, it is the most supported by software." Third party Laserprinters and imagewriters do work with the Mac. There are software around to make these compatible. My point is that it is there. "Tell that to my friend who bought a new 3.5 inch Apple drive. The retail price is $400! I spent about $100 building one for myself. As for hard disks, I built one for my father's 1040...a 20 meg Seagate, Adaptek, and ICD host adapter for $350. Beat that on a Mac." I didn't say peripherals from Apple are cheap. I said 3rd party peripherals are as cheap as those for the ST. All the prices you mentioned are for "hacked" units. I'm sure if I had enough technical info on the Mac I could build floppy drives and hard drives that cost the same as "hacked" ST drives. The OEM's for the mech are the same. In fact, I know I can easily beat $350 for a 20 meg hard drive: A SCSI 20meg mech (ST-125N is advertised by JDR for $299 and I can just drop it in to an SE or a II.) I don't know for sure if this would work, but it looks reasonable. BTW, did your $350 include a new drive, cables, casing and power supply in addition to the Adaptek and ICD host adapter? (ICD host adapter: $136., Adaptek controller: $90-140. = >$226 leaves $124 for 20 Meg mech, power supply and case.) I'm not going to comment on the last paragraph of you message. The direction it's headed makes me uncomfortable. My purpose in posting my original reply was to argue with kclenden@silver.bacs.indiana.edu > kevin Clendenien's statement on the high prices of Apple peripherals and the lack of 3rd party source compared to the ST. I'm not making any claims on which computer is better. I really don't care. I only care on whether they can do the job I bought them for. And so far, both of them have been very satisfactory. If only I have more of my own money, then I can enjoy and make more use of this 1040ST. Regards, Marcelino Bernardo mbernar@erenj.bitnet
clf3678@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.L. Freemesser) (01/05/90)
> "Find a 3rd party Apple floppy drive that is totally compatible with > the Apple drives, and I'll show you a snowball that survived a trip > through hell.... " > >I don't have personal experience with third party Apple floppy drives so I >can't argue this point. I'm only familiar with the Mac line, and have spe- >cifically limited my comments to this. Are you referring to Mac or Apple >II drives? What are you basing this statement on? A friend of mine is an Apple enthusiast, and he has told me all about the incompatibility problems with Apple drives. Since the Mac uses a non-standard variable speed drive, making one yourself will be very difficult. Also, the fact that the Mac uses an electronic eject while everybody else uses a manual eject will complicate the problem even more. >BTW, did your $350 include a new drive, cables, casing and power supply >in addition to the Adaptek and ICD host adapter? (ICD host adapter: $136., >Adaptek controller: $90-140. = >$226 leaves $124 for 20 Meg mech, >power supply and case.) Yes, it included a brand new ICD Host adapter ($100), an Adaptec 4000 ($85), a Seagate ST-225 mech ($120), a power supply and case, and all needed cables. I must admit that I got the mech from a friend of mine who owns a computer store, and pulled the 225 out of a machine he was upgrading. The rest of the stuff was purchased from mail order houses, and YOU TOO can get them at this price. Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology :BITNET:%clf3678@RITVAX ||| ____________ :GEnie: C.FREEMESSER ||| /___ / (and 8-bit too!) :USENET: clf3678@rit.isc / | \ ______/ / : .edu Call the A.C.O.R.N BBS (716)436-3078, 300/1200 baud :<-or my BBS