obryan@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Mark O'Bryan) (02/12/90)
In article <17425@laurel.athertn.Atherton.COM> alex@Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens) writes about a tape unit available from BMS: While I appreciate his sharing the info with the net, I honestly can't understand why anyone would choose the option he describes over the ICD FA*ST Tape Backup unit. I don't have any axe to grind here, I'm just a little perplexed and thought an opposing view should be aired. Perhaps there are other advantages to the BMS unit that I'm not aware of. > It uses a standard size Un*x style cartridge > tape mechanism and tapes (unlike the ICD unit, which > uses a non-standard size) to allow you to backup/restore your > hard-disc partitions on a file-system basis > (there is no image backup yet). Unless you're planning on transporting data to/from Unix boxes via this medium, I'm not sure what value this "standard" would have. Perhaps the intention is that the tapes are easier to find? The ICD box allows both file-oriented and image backups, which comes in handy for Spectre (and possibly Minix?) partitions. > Tape cartridge prices run about > $15 each (less if you go to swap meets, where used Sun Microsystems tapes > can be found for as little as $5). While most places will try to charge anywhere from $30 to $40 for the CT-600N digital cassette tapes that the ICD box uses, I know of two places (at least) they can be obtained for $19 a piece. Since I don't know the capacity of the BMS tapes, I'm not sure how the $15 compares to the $19 for 155 meg capacity. > Disc to tape speed averages > about a meg a minute, which means that the average 10 meg partition > can be backed up (assuming it's completely full) in roughly 10 minutes. > One nice thing is that the backup doesn't need to be monitored, > so you can be off doing something else while your hard disc gets backed up. > (Like sleeping...:-) Hmmm, impressive. The ICD unit runs 6-7 megs a minute, and also runs fully unattended. One disadvantage, of course, is that you only get to sleep 1/7-th as long ;-). > Berkley MicroSystems will sell you a complete system (tape drive, controller, > SCSI<->ASCI board, software) for $650. However, they say that since the > cost of the tape drives mechanisms is so cheap, you can probably do a > lot better by going out and buying a used tape drive yourself, and ... The ICD box is $775 from Joppa Computers in Maryland, and I just ordered one from MicroTyme in Ohio for $765. Considering the capacity/performance of the ICD box, I don't see the BMS as any savings. I'm sticking a bare 100 meg SCSI hard drive inside the tape box, which saves me buying a box, power supply, and host adapter. Can you do this with the BMS unit? [MicroTyme advertises the ICD for $799. I pointed out that my brother has bought over $1,000 worth of games from them, and asked if they could match Joppa's price. They beat it. I don't know if they would do this for any- body who asked, or if I got special treatment. They seem to be pretty nice folks though.] > One caveat--you will need some technical expertise in order to put > this system together. While SCSI stuff is pretty much plug and play > these days, there is still a certain level of knowledge needed in order > to prevent yourself from frying expensive components. (This is not > a 'take it out of the box and run it' type system, you will have > to get your hands dirty and assemble it.) Given that > caution, if you're in the market for an inexpensive tape backup, If your time is worth nothing, or you just enjoy doing it yourself, this may be a worthwhile option. Otherwise, I just don't see it. People seem to think the ICD box is awfully expensive (I know I did), but if you check out boxes on the Mac using the same streaming tape drive you'll find they run $1,000 to $1,700. That makes the ICD look almost cheap. When you consider that it has to have a host adapter (Atari DMA-SCSI), plus can hold a hard drive, and sells for $775, it's a steal. If you really want to roll your own, the bare TEAC tape drives can be found for ~$400. Add $100 for a host adapter, $100 for a box/power supply, plus a little extra for miscellaneous cables and mounting hardware. You saved maybe $160 for your efforts. Now sit down and start writing the backup software. Doesn't seem like much of a savings to me. (I considered that option and rejected it. I might have come to a different conclusion if I was going to, say, stuff a whole stack of peripherals in a tower case.) [The above has been a public service announcement. It's replete with my own personal opinions. Your mileage may vary. Do not exceed recommended doses. Void where prohibited by law.] -- Mark T. O'Bryan Internet: obryan@gumby.cc.wmich.edu Western Michigan University Kalamazoo, MI 49008
kawakami@tornado.Berkeley.EDU (John Kawakami) (02/12/90)
I understand that used workstation equipment (like tape drives) are
pretty cheap and easy to get. I imagine that a tape drive would
be easy to find on the used workstation market.
I don't know anything about such dealers. Could someone give me
pointers, or pointers to pointers.
John Kawakami kawakami@earthquake.berkeley.edu
ucbvax!earthquake.berkeley.edu!kawakami
take-a-right-up-the-hill-then-a-left-on-leroyhcj@lzsc.ATT.COM (HC Johnson) (02/12/90)
> writes about a tape unit available from BMS: While I appreciate his sharing > the info with the net, I honestly can't understand why anyone would choose > the option he describes over the ICD FA*ST Tape Backup unit. I don't have First you need an Atari Host Adapter that handles multiple SCSI correctly. BMS-200 does this. ICD FA*ST claims to. LATE issue SUPRA claim to. Second ingredient is the Adaptec 3530A Adapter. Third ingredient is a Archeive or equivalent QIC-36 tape unit. All in all, its not cheap. But the best way to back up large HD's. A note on speed. The tape units run at the same speed. For 1:1 formatted HD's, the software can read in 1 track (17 sectors) while writing it to tape (using the internal buffer in the 3530A. (for purests, the tape will only accept 16 sectors at a time, so the HD has to be able to read across the head switch very quickly.) The goal is to keep the tape moving continuously. If at any time it runs out of data to write, it must write a long trailer, stop, backspace,and wait to restart. This is really slow. If the drive doesn't seek fast enough (sh204), the tape stops from time to time and has to restart. If formatted 2:1 or worse, the HD allows you to format for 18 sectors/track. And the backup writes 16 sectors and stops (see above), then restarts. The Tape sounds busy, but quickly drops to 1 meg a minute or worse. I have a BMS-200, controlling 1 3530A tape, and 2 Adaptec 4000A connected to HD's. Formatted 1:1 with my own backup software (derived from BMS's early work) I get 6-7 megabyte per minute. I definitely appreciate being ATT and SUN compatible. (I got Jwahar Bammi to send me all of gnu-xxx on 1 tape written on a SUN; read it in and go. WOW!). I would definitely recommend Cartridge Tape for backup. The bigger the HD, the more you need it. BMS makes good stuff, it is aimed to the do-it-yourselfer. ICD has a a good sounding product and package. Either way it is a good way to go. I save partitions, rather than raw disk by sector number. This lets be do two things. One, I can restore a single partition or copy it to another disk. Second, by judiciously rewriting tos.c from MINIX, I can actually access and read files from the tape directly. The ultimate for the Cartridge Tape is to adapt a CPIO clone (such a gnuxxx) to read and write the CT. This is then compatible with UNIX(r), MINIX, and TOS. Howard C. Johnson ATT Bell Labs =====NEW address==== att!lzsc!hcj hcj@lzsc.att.com
alex@athertn.Atherton.COM (Alex Leavens) (02/13/90)
obryan@gumby.cc.wmich.edu (Mark O'Bryan) wonders why I like the BMS Tape backup unit better than the ICD unit. Well, first off, I don't like it better; I've never used the ICD unit, so I can't really say. The BMS unit is a do-it-yourself type box, and the ICD isn't. There are some of us (me included, :-) who actually like putting something together, rather than just taking it out of a box. (If I bought an ICD unit, the first thing I'd do would be to take it apart and see how it works! <grin>). >Unless you're planning on transporting data to/from Unix boxes via this >medium, I'm not sure what value this "standard" would have. Perhaps the >intention is that the tapes are easier to find? The standard cartridge tapes are very easy to find; my basis for this comment was one ICD owner who mentioned to me that the tapes for that unit seemed to be hard to find and expensive. >The ICD box allows both file-oriented and image backups, which comes in >handy for Spectre (and possibly Minix?) partitions. Actually, there's one person on the net (Howard Bell), who's got image backup working for the BMS unit. >While most places will try to charge anywhere from $30 to $40 for the >CT-600N digital cassette tapes that the ICD box uses, I know of two places >(at least) they can be obtained for $19 a piece. Since I don't know the >capacity of the BMS tapes, I'm not sure how the $15 compares to the $19 >for 155 meg capacity. Typical cartridge tapes are between 60 and 300 meg capacity. >Hmmm, impressive. The ICD unit runs 6-7 megs a minute, and also runs fully >unattended. One disadvantage, of course, is that you only get to sleep >1/7-th as long ;-). Yes, but if you used to use floppy, then it _is_ a heck of a difference. >If you really want to roll your own, the bare TEAC tape drives can be found >for ~$400. Add $100 for a host adapter, $100 for a box/power supply, plus >a little extra for miscellaneous cables and mounting hardware. You saved >maybe $160 for your efforts. Now sit down and start writing the backup >software. Doesn't seem like much of a savings to me. (I considered that >option and rejected it. I might have come to a different conclusion if I >was going to, say, stuff a whole stack of peripherals in a tower case. Your prices aren't right. BMS will sell you a very nice tower case with power supply and fan for ~$50. (It's big, though). Tape drive mechs, used, are nowhere near $400--$100 is more like it. (And I've seen them for even less). So for $250, you can have drive, host adapter, box, power supply and cables. When you buy the BMS board, if you tell them what you're using it for, they give you the backup software too. So your cost is more like $250, and it's not a savings of $160, but more like $500-$600. This is worth it, IMHO. (Especially if you like getting your hands dirty :-). Again, I haven't used an ICD unit at all; from everything I've seen, they are very nice units. I was just trying to give people a pointer to another option which is worthwhile in checking out, especially if you have more time than money. -- |-------------------------------------------------------------------------| |--alex | alex@Atherton.COM | Caution! Falling Opinions, next 6 miles | | "Mmmm...Ooo, say...Yummm......Blewuechh! Tiggers _don't_ like honey." | |-------------------------------------------------------------------------|